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Old 08-16-2014, 06:49 PM   #1901
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You guys need to get out and enjoy your cars more.........
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Old 08-16-2014, 06:59 PM   #1902
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hotlap, it's silly to bring "The Ring" into this discussion. As far as I'm concerned the car has not seen The Ring.
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Old 08-16-2014, 07:01 PM   #1903
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Can't wait until the Hellcat is in the hands of the masses.
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Old 08-16-2014, 08:32 PM   #1904
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Hellcat is king. All your stock Camaros are so high school. It's all over now take it like a man.
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Old 08-16-2014, 10:51 PM   #1905
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Can't wait until the Hellcat is in the hands of the asses.
Did I read that right?

Don't be so hard on yourselves.
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Old 08-16-2014, 11:16 PM   #1906
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Originally Posted by hotlapZL1 View Post
The 2015 CTS-V makes 556 HP, the ZL1 is 580 HP. They also designed a special rear end and transmission for the ZL1 that is absolutely bullet proof at the drag strip even with high HP mods. The ZL1 is far more than CTS-V tech transferred to the Camaro.

Its an old car, times have changed, the best is yet to come.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UQtF35ZN-sw
I've dynoed both cars on a superflow autodyn30 on the same day and they were within spitting difference of each other... Also the redesign of the rear was only due to the SS having short comings in that department...

As for the Nürburgring it's a great place to validate chassis and suspension and proves if the car has a well-sorted chassis, but it shouldn't be bragging rights to the majority here that have never even seen the track in person let alone run a Camaro on nordschleife...
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Old 08-16-2014, 11:21 PM   #1907
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I've dynoed both cars on a superflow autodyn30 on the same day and they were within spitting difference of each other... Also the redesign of the rear was only due to SS having short comings in that department...

As for the Nürburgring it's a great place to validate chassis and suspension and proves if the car has a well-sorted chassis, but it shouldn't be bragging rights to the majority here that have never even seen the track in person let alone run a Camaro on nordschleife...
Sorry bragging rites for everyone here. Just have to accept WHY the ring is chosen as the comparator. Do some research. It determines overall performance and balance for a car.
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Old 08-16-2014, 11:34 PM   #1908
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Sorry bragging rites for everyone here. Just have to accept WHY the ring is chosen as the comparator. Do some research. It determines overall performance and balance for a car.
I agree to an extent but there are more performance metrics than what a vehicle laps the Nürburgring.. Some of the key elements that all manufacturers use in performance data e.g. 0-60, 60-0, 1/4 mile times and a few others are not the primary function of the Ring...

It's used to mainly validate chassis and suspension which is why the German auto segment has been light years ahead in that department for so many years, once American companies caught on it changed the way the domestic cars handle..

And I'll choose to keep my bragging rights domestic as to what the car does here under my control...
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Old 08-17-2014, 12:14 AM   #1909
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I agree to an extent but there are more performance metrics than what a vehicle laps the Nürburgring.. Some of the key elements that all manufacturers use in performance data e.g. 0-60, 60-0, 1/4 mile times and a few others are not a the primary function of the Ring...

It's used to mainly validate chassis and suspension which is why the German auto segment has been light years ahead in that department for so many years, once American companies caught on it changed the way the domestic cars handle..

And I'll choose to keep my bragging rights domestic as to what the car does here under my control...
If handling, braking and chassis dynamics are less important than a HP number or only the 1/4 Mike time, good on ya mate. I want the whole package. Just MO.
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Old 08-17-2014, 12:33 AM   #1910
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If handling, braking and chassis dynamics are less important than a HP number or only the 1/4 Mike time, good on ya mate. I want the whole package. Just MO.
On the contrary I believe that all of the things mentioned by you are fundamental in making a car nowadays... But when making a domestic bruiser like the ZL1 1/4 mile and HP numbers should have been a huge consideration after all GM is an American grass roots company with a lineage of great performance dominance...
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Old 08-17-2014, 07:54 AM   #1911
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If handling, braking and chassis dynamics are less important than a HP number or only the 1/4 Mike time, good on ya mate. I want the whole package. Just MO.
...something Mopar is hamstrung to produce, Viper excepted...and we see how the market is reacting to that one...

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On the contrary I believe that all of the things mentioned by you are fundamental in making a car nowadays... But when making a domestic bruiser like the ZL1 1/4 mile and HP numbers should have been a huge consideration after all GM is an American grass roots company with a lineage of great performance dominance...
That is NOT the "business case" for the ZL1...is it? Or the ZL1 wouldn't have it's development dollars spent on attributes like MRC, a not-so-inexpensive feature the other domestics cannot match.

The ZL1 was developed as a full-usage GT-style coupe, NOT as a store-bought Pro Street freak. And, when targeting a sub-$60K price point, only so much can be included. NO LS9. NO "unique LSA+++". When the engineering was locked down, in '10, 580 hp was about 100 more than anything Mopar had on the horizon, and almost 10% more than Ford was then offering.

And GM was working with a specific platform that, at that moment, had been in production for about 18 months. 'Ring development, for the ZL1, was VERY important. It came within a very few seconds of Ford's THREE TIMES THE PRICE GT.

And that was a fail? In 2010-11? Not hardly.

Ford, to their credit, upped the ante by spending it's development budget on prepping a locomotive engine as it's answer. A 1.2 lb/hp advantage covers up a LOT of shortcomings in the chassis, when subjected to road course workouts. Pro Street with a smattering of Pro Tour trinkets. On a platform that was, by the time production of the "revised" GT500 rolled around, FIVE TIMES LONGER! And if it wasn't for the ZL1, probably wouldn't have been "revised".

"Oh, and since we know the GT500 isn't generally as capable, as a chassis, to "handle" the ZL1, we don't care...we have the BOSS LS for that job"...oh wait!

Mopar: Enter the "Sergio is Savior" dungeon of the Challenger SRT, which is...um...something only a diehard DODGE fan would buy, as a "balanced ultra-performance car" vs. its domestic competition. 485 hp? 42-4300 lb., unblown? Tire-limited body work? Aftermarket suspension upgrades available, but they don't meet Mopar's NOISE mandates? No canyon-carver version CAN possibly ensue.

Oh, and it's been in production for almost 6 years (twiddling its thumbs)...or 70 months, while Dodge/RAM pickups and JEEPS have been lining Sergio's war chest with profit$...and Team SRT (what SRT?) sees opportunities wilting away...

"Heat up the cappuccino! Time to make some HEADLINES! We have to live with this turkey for another handful of years so let's get the Bunson Burner burning!", sez the mad scientist Sergio!

Can't make it turn with the Z/28...or even the BOSS...or even the 1LE...with mandate-meeting suspension...so NO Pro Tour...

"BWHA_HA_HA_HA_HA!" spake the mad one. POWER! SPEED! HEADLINES for the one-trick-Clydesdale seeking PRO STREET STOOGES!

...and ya got what ya got: A warmed over Shelby recipe once again (remember the '80s?), only without the chili salesman's signature attached...

And it only took the results of Ford and GM...and a 30-year old edition of the DODGE playbook, to make it happen...after Sergio, following an audience from the Pope, gave it his "blessing"...

Ford chose Po-Tay-Toes. Sergio selected Po-Taaaaah-Toes. (stolen from Number 3). GM chose Potatoes.

And the MOST IMPORTANT DIFFERENCES?

Ford and GM have since chosen to spend their pony car development dollars creating BRAND NEW MASTERPIECES, their Gen-6 versions. Been there, done that, with the current versions! Time marches on...like the Allied armies re-taking Italy...

MOPAR is...well..."Please, Master Sergio, I needs me porridge!" "NO WAY! Ya got 707 hp, now use THAT (for another untold number of years) !! BWHA_HA_HA_HA_HA!!!!"

Last edited by LOWDOWN; 08-17-2014 at 08:19 AM.
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Old 08-17-2014, 08:21 AM   #1912
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...something Mopar is hamstrung to produce, Viper excepted...and we see how the market is reacting to that one...



That is NOT the "business case" for the ZL1...is it? Or the ZL1 wouldn't have it's development dollars spent on attributes like MRC, a not-so-inexpensive feature the other domestics cannot match.

The ZL1 was developed as a full-usage GT-style coupe, NOT as a store-bought Pro Street freak. And, when targeting a sub-$60K price point, only so much can be included. NO LS9. NO "unique LSA+++". When the engineering was locked down, in '10, 580 hp was about 100 more than anything Mopar had on the horizon, and almost 10% more than Ford was then offering.

And GM was working with a specific platform that, at that moment, had been in production for about 18 months. 'Ring development, for the ZL1, was VERY important. It came within a very few seconds of Ford's THREE TIMES THE PRICE GT.

And that was a fail? In 2010-11? Not hardly.

Ford, to their credit, upped the ante by spending it's development budget on prepping a locomotive engine as it's answer. A 1.2 lb/hp advantage covers up a LOT of shortcomings in the chassis, when subjected to road course workouts. Pro Street with a smattering of Pro Tour trinkets. On a platform that was, by the time production of the "revised" GT500 rolled around, FIVE TIMES LONGER! And if it wasn't for the ZL1, probably wouldn't have been "revised".

"Oh, and since we know the GT500 isn't generally as capable, as a chassis, to "handle" the ZL1, we don't care...we have the BOSS LS for that job"...oh wait!

Mopar: Enter the "Sergio is Savior" dungeon of the Challenger SRT, which is...um...something only a diehard DODGE fan would buy, as a "balanced ultra-performance car" vs. its domestic competition. 485 hp? 42-4300 lb., unblown? Tire-limited body work? Aftermarket suspension upgrades available, but they don't meet Mopar's NOISE mandates? No canyon-carver version CAN possibly ensue.

Oh, and it's been in production for almost 6 years (twiddling its thumbs)...or 70 months, while Dodge/RAM pickups and JEEPS have been lining Sergio's war chest with profit$...and Team SRT (what SRT?) sees opportunities wilting away...

"Heat up the cappuccino! Time to make some HEADLINES! We have to live with this turkey for another handful of years so let's get the Bunson Burner burning!", sez the mad scientist Sergio!

Can't make it turn with the Z/28...or even the BOSS...or even the 1LE...with mandate-meeting suspension...so NO Pro Tour...

"HA_HA_HA_HA_HA!" spake the mad one. POWER! SPEED! HEADLINES for the one-trick-Clydesdale seeking PRO STREET STOOGES!

...and ya got what ya got: A warmed over Shelby recipe once again (remember the '80s?), only without the chili salesman's signature attached...

And it only took the results of Ford and GM...and a 30-year old edition of the DODGE playbook, to make it happen...after Sergio, following an audience from the Pope, gave it his "blessing"...

Ford chose Po-Tay-Toes. Sergio selected Po-Taaaaah-Toes. (stolen from Number 3). GM chose Potatoes.

And the MOST IMPORTANT DIFFERENCES?

Ford na GM have since spent their pony car development dollars creating BRAND NEW MASTERPIECES, their Gen-6 versions. Been there, done that, with the current versions! Time marches on...like the Allied armies re-taking Italy...

MOPAR is...well..."Please, Master Sergio, I needs me porridge!" "NO WAY! Ya got 707 hp, now use THAT (for another untold number of years) !! HA_HA_HA_HA_HA!!!!"
Simmer down grandpa and finish up your prune juice...let car enthusiasts enjoy what Dodge has created.
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Old 08-17-2014, 08:58 AM   #1913
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And the MOST IMPORTANT DIFFERENCES?

Ford and GM have since chosen to spend their pony car development dollars creating BRAND NEW MASTERPIECES, their Gen-6 versions. Been there, done that, with the current versions! Time marches on...like the Allied armies re-taking Italy...

MOPAR is...well..."Please, Master Sergio, I needs me porridge!" "NO WAY! Ya got 707 hp, now use THAT (for another untold number of years) !! BWHA_HA_HA_HA_HA!!!!"
This is what disappoints me the most^ I was hoping FCA, with all their portfolio platforms, would introduce something to make the Challenger competitive in the evolving marketplace.

The outgoing Camaro and Mustang are chosen 4:1 over the Challenger, I can't imagine what the ratio will look like after the 2015 Mustang and 2016 Camaro are introduced. Dodge better have something planned to compete. Right now, the only driver-oriented car bearing the Dodge logo is the Viper starting at $102,000. Where is the 'Cuda!?

Surely there are some bits Dodge can borrow from the Alfa Romeo parts bin for a smaller, lighter chassis. Fit it with a V8 Dodge drivetrain and watch it fly!
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Old 08-17-2014, 10:52 AM   #1914
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Listen when you run into a Hellcat (or GT500) on the street or strip you can boast about your car’s capability with the Ring. While you are bragging about your car’s turning ability your manual ZL1 will be getting raped in all the following: 0-60, 0-100, 1/8 mile, ¼ mile, stop light to stop light, roll race (any starting speed), 1-mile race, and top-end. The ultimate face palm would be the lack of respect by the local car enthusiast gathering for even bringing ring times or lightning lap times into the conversation.
Do yourself a favor and trade in your M6 for an automatic ZL1, treat it to full bolt-ons, and go hunting for this big-game cat.
So... Are you car-less as your signature suggests or the owner of a 2012 Mustang GT with "Brembo Track Pack" as your Avitar says?

The first would explain why you're so bitter. Mom took your car away?
The second shows how confused you really are.
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Old 08-17-2014, 11:20 AM   #1915
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So... Are you car-less as your signature suggests or the owner of a 2012 Mustang GT with "Brembo Track Pack" as your Avitar says?

The first would explain why you're so bitter. Mom took your car away?
The second shows how confused you really are.
I've been thinking all along that you may either confused or a closet Mopar guy with the Joe Dirt avatar.
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Old 08-17-2014, 11:48 AM   #1916
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I've been thinking all along that you may either confused or a closet Mopar guy with the Joe Dirt avatar.
I've thought you were a closet Mopar guy with all your Z bashing but I now understand where you're coming from.

The Joe Dirt Avitar came from my Corvette elitist brother asking me if I was going to get a J-Dirt license plates when I chose the ZL1 over the C7. Joe Dirt drove a TA, no? I've been thinking it may be time for a change as it in no way represents me and was more a middle finger to the snobs
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Old 08-17-2014, 12:22 PM   #1917
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Lol! Prune juice...
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Old 08-17-2014, 12:52 PM   #1918
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Simmer down grandpa and finish up your prune juice...let car enthusiasts enjoy what Dodge has created.
Plus 1 on 2nd sentence.
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Old 08-17-2014, 01:19 PM   #1919
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I've thought you were a closet Mopar guy with all your Z bashing but I now understand where you're coming from.

The Joe Dirt Avitar came from my Corvette elitist brother asking me if I was going to get a J-Dirt license plates when I chose the ZL1 over the C7. Joe Dirt drove a TA, no? I've been thinking it may be time for a change as it in no way represents me and was more a middle finger to the snobs
I make no bones about liking mopars and fords for that matter. I like GM products as well. Always have always will. I don't look at stating the obvious as bashing. I've said before, the only thing I don't care for about my ZL1 is the interior but not bad enough to keep me from buying one. Like I also said before, I know GM reads these boards, and I just hope that a little criticism pushes them to trump the others. This is good for all of us no matter what brand you fancy. If ford wouldn't haven't brought out the 05 mustang, I doubt any of us would be even here let alone arguing this topic. I wish we could all get together and have a beer in person. I would bet that we would get along just fine even though we don't agree completely.

I also said in several posts that I'm sure the ZL1 will still be overall the best car. But, I'm a drag racer at heart and I am impressed with what dodge is doing there.

Oh and, you couldn't have ever watched Joe dirt if you thinking he drove a TA. You don't deserve to use that avatar. Kidding. His dream was a hemi, he drove a busted up superbird for most of the movie and ended up with his dream hemi convertible. Kid rock drove a TA which got made fun of at the end.

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Old 08-17-2014, 01:33 PM   #1920
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I wish we could all get together and have a beer in person. I would bet that we would get along just fine even though we don't agree completely.
I met a 14 GT Track Pack owner last night and we were all over each others cars. Stats never mentioned once. First time I took my car to the strip, a supercharged Challanger owner gave me lots of advice. It's all good.

New Avitar!
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Old 08-17-2014, 02:06 PM   #1921
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Surely there are some bits Dodge can borrow from the Alfa Romeo parts bin for a smaller, lighter chassis. Fit it with a V8 Dodge drivetrain and watch it fly!
Sadly, that's what's eventually in-store for FCA: a FIAT-Lancia-Alfa derived Mid-Size platform. That has the "true believers" in Auburn Hills turning Carl Edwards-inspired backflips...of DISDAIN...which I reluctantly share with y'all, here.

After all, the fine folks @ FIAT have WHAT experience with big-cube big-torque V8 engines? NADA. So, Johnson and Johnson becomes their engineering subcontractor of choice from the OUTSET, moving forward...s-l-o-w-l-y...

Johnson and Johnson, of course, are world-famous for...are you ready? And they now have a VERY profitable operation in Italy...

.
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Old 08-17-2014, 02:17 PM   #1922
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[This just sent to me by Sergio hisself]

"We do TOO have 'sperience building rugged, durable high-torque ve-hicles!! I resemble your remarks!"

[Put down the sangria, Sergio, and switch to espresso...]
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Old 08-17-2014, 02:27 PM   #1923
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Sadly, that's what's eventually in-store for FCA: a FIAT-Lancia-Alfa derived Mid-Size platform. That has the "true believers" in Auburn Hills turning Carl Edwards-inspired backflips...of DISDAIN...which I reluctantly share with y'all, here.

After all, the fine folks @ FIAT have WHAT experience with big-cube big-torque V8 engines? NADA. So, Johnson and Johnson becomes their engineering subcontractor of choice from the OUTSET, moving forward...s-l-o-w-l-y...

Johnson and Johnson, of course, are world-famous for...are you ready? And they now have a VERY profitable operation in Italy...

.
You do know who Fiat owns, right?

might I suggest you stop before you swallow your entire leg
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Old 08-17-2014, 03:04 PM   #1924
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You do know who Fiat owns, right?
Shareholders?
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Old 08-17-2014, 03:28 PM   #1925
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You do know who Fiat owns, right?
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Shareholders?
I would say you got that backwards.
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