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Old 03-18-2007, 03:43 PM   #101
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It just doesn't make sense to me that they would have two seperate V8's for the same level Car...and only having different engines due to different trannys. I'm thinking one could be just a regular old base V8 Camaro, then another for an SS, and the last being the Z28. Heck, I don't know. What would the base Camaro be called? Would it be an RS package? Or, would the base Camaro be called an SS with the next bump up being the SS/RS again w/ the top being Z28?

I think the person to ask to answer the main question is right here....GMPowertrain.

Is it necessary to have one engine for an auto and another V8 for a manual? I'm not asking what's going into the Camaro...you're sworn to secrecy. But, could you shed some light on this?
When was the Z28 ever top dog? When they didn't have a camaro SS for a few of the generations Z28 was top dog but when the SS camaro was offered it was the top dog.
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Old 03-18-2007, 06:51 PM   #102
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I doubt that there will be a different base V8 for each transmission. The only difference i think will be a few hp MAYBE because of the auto's torque converter or w/e. But i really have no idea, im just waiting.
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Old 03-18-2007, 07:37 PM   #103
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If no one minds me adding my two cents worth. A 400HP engine is just that 400Hp requardless of transmission. Where the type of transmission comes into play is at the rear wheels. A manual transmission will reduce 400HP to around 350-357 HP. An automatic tranny will reduce 400HP to around 338-347 HP. But take heart. STS Turbo has a twin turbo system that replaces the mufflers with two turbos. They have them for LT1 LS1 engines. They took a C-6 corvette with 350 RWHP put their kit on it and booted RWHP by 39% with 5PSI of boost and boosted RWHP by 59% with 7PSI boost. That's 136 - 203 HP gain. We're talking 486-553HP at the rear wheels. Plus testimonials all have said they increased MPG by 4. Kick A** and save gas. Yes Virginia there is a Santa Claus.
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Old 03-18-2007, 09:06 PM   #104
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Guys over 50 may remember. Camaro never had "SS" and "Z28" on same car. GM tried to introduce this on 4th gen and purist shot it down before production. Back in 60's/70's you could order a car special by adding order number designations (1LE and COPO are the ones everyone knows). Those days are gone. The "SS" was always given to the "sporty" model, but even that one could be ordered with delete options. I agree with 'stevenm357'; GM lowered standards with Cobalt "SS". The 4th gen didn't have apparent difference between "SS" and "Z28"; the "SS" and "Z28" packages gave you what you got - not many changes you could make. In '68 you could get an "SS" with BB or SB, but "Z28" came with 302 SB. Back then the "SS" was KING in hp, but both were hot cars to have.

I think GM will come out with both SS and Z28, but I'd like the SS badge dropped because the perception of power has been diluted through the years with GM marketing trying to gain buyers with that designation. The "Z28" holds value cause it belongs to Camaros. Since the LS motors are small blocks, even the purists can be happy. For a production car to fit the market, it will need more than hp. I can't wait to hear more about engines and ratings for new Camaro, but there is so much more. I heard that IRS was likely.

My 4th gen is a thrill to drive - especially diggin hard in the corners and it rides nice for long trips. It has adequate HP but it needs more for seat-of-the-pants go. My first gen has better go with 450hp rating, but it too needs more. You'll never be satisfied with hp - more is always better. One thing to remember is that to use the hp on street, you need insurance. Has anyone priced coverage for 500hp? I'm guessing it'll be 1200/yr + for good driving records for guys (and gals) over 30. Heard that when the Viper came out, half of the cars were in accidents within first year. Too much hp for street. I know Camaro drivers are much better qualified, but things happen fast in traffic.

Just some thoughts - sorry for running on with the mouth.
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Old 03-18-2007, 09:47 PM   #105
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One thing to remember is that to use the hp on street, you need insurance. Has anyone priced coverage for 500hp? I'm guessing it'll be 1200/yr + for good driving records for guys (and gals) over 30. Heard that when the Viper came out, half of the cars were in accidents within first year. Too much hp for street. I know Camaro drivers are much better qualified, but things happen fast in traffic.

Just some thoughts - sorry for running on with the mouth.
That is a very good point actually. I went on Progressive really quick just to see what the insurance would be on a GT500 since it is the most comparable car in production today. $1011/year for me (I am 25) OUCH!. Needless to say that is not going to cut it!

There was a great thread started on another forum discussing the topic of HP and at what point is there just too much HP? This was a major point of conversation, but I personally still haven't determined when I think a certain level of HP is too much for the street. I mean it obviously comes down to how you drive individually. I mean a kid can turn a 150 hp car into a projectile just as deadily as a 500 HP car, but it is the availability of the 500 HP that makes us want to punch it a lot harder. But where do we cross that line. I can guarantee you that I don't punch the gas on my wife's Civic ever, but you get me behind the wheel of a GTO and I can go through a tank of gas in about 30 mins. So, when does a certain level of HP become just too much HP for the street? 350, 400, 450, 550? Personally I think the same guy that is likely to wreck a 350HP car is just as likely to wreck a 500HP car.

I am rambling now, so I will just let others weigh in.
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Old 03-18-2007, 10:02 PM   #106
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I've said it before, unless your racing, 400 is about all you need to have fun. Anything over that really won't make much difference on the streets, because these things exist called speed limits...yeah, they're out there. some guys(and gals), just like to have the numbers in their belt. the higher the better, but if you go to high, then you're just paying more for the same ride as far as I'm concerned.

Oh and don't get petty, with the whole 425hp thing: 25 more than 400...get serious!
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Old 03-18-2007, 10:19 PM   #107
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If you've got good exhaust tone, it don't matter if it's 400 hp or 600 hp, you get respect. Hope US Gov doesn't restrict engineers too much and the car can sound like it'll perform even when it's at idle.
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Old 03-19-2007, 08:18 AM   #108
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400hp? Not.

If anyone thinks you can actually use 400hp on the street, the don't live in the USA! There is NOWHERE on a street that you could realistically use 400hp.

It only takes ~ 80hp to go 80mph.

From a standing start I doubt you could hook more than 200-300hp on your average street asphalt (less if you live in the N. East).

Hell, even if your running to the grocery store on drag radials you probably couldn't use that much hp...

But we all want more don't we? For my part, I plan on taking more visits to race tracks, SCCA events, and closed course driving training events to make use of all this newfound hp, as thats the only real place to actually use it!

550hp LS9? Yes please!

~LSx
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Old 03-19-2007, 09:09 AM   #109
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If anyone thinks you can actually use 400hp on the street, the don't live in the USA! There is NOWHERE on a street that you could realistically use 400hp.

It only takes ~ 80hp to go 80mph.

From a standing start I doubt you could hook more than 200-300hp on your average street asphalt (less if you live in the N. East).

Hell, even if your running to the grocery store on drag radials you probably couldn't use that much hp...

But we all want more don't we? For my part, I plan on taking more visits to race tracks, SCCA events, and closed course driving training events to make use of all this newfound hp, as thats the only real place to actually use it!

550hp LS9? Yes please!

~LSx

It is sort of strange how your perception can change. I remember in the early 90's thinking that 300hp was a serious amount of hp and then when the late 4th gens hit with the LS1 and were laying down 350hp by numerous reports, I thought initially, what in the world would you do with all of that power!

Then the LS2 came along and I test drove the GTO. After awhile I thought 400hp was a good amount of hp and was no longer in awe of the 350 hp mark. Now I am trying to wrap my head around 430hp with the good possibility of 450hp with some very simple modifications... Holy crap! I can honestly say that I would have never thought 10-15 years ago that 400+ hp would be the norm in muscle cars, let alone 550! Are we at that point when we look at a 500hp car and scuff thinking it is just a run-of-the-mill muscle car? That is A LOT of power!

Something else I was thinking of was, although they are substantially increasing the power on these motors, are we actually getting what we are paying for or will GM and other manufacturers severely cripple the car through torque management instead of beefing up the drivetrain to handle the added power. I mean 425HP is a lot of power, but only if we are actually able to use all of that power.
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Old 03-19-2007, 11:40 AM   #110
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I think this trend will continue as long as we have non-hybrid sports cars... hp will always sell cars because it means fun-to-drive. But in reality, we like high HP cars because they generate a lot of TORQUE... and TORQUE is what makes a car feel fast.

(I don't mean necessarily the ENGINE makes the torque, sometimes its a high revving engine combined with a good gearbox that generates the torque at the rear wheels that gives that sporty feeling)

I think that hybrid cars will upset this trend a bit because electric motors can generate TONS of torque at zero RPM. An all electric drivetrain with good controls could theoretically smoke ANY internal combustion engine in a drag race. There are a few demonstrator cars (including the new ZAP Inc. hybrid SUV) that have electric motors mounted in the wheels.

These cars will one day replace big-block IC engines as the performance kings... there is just no way to really compete with the torque production and wheel-speed control an electric drivetrain gives you...

But I am a design engineer for robot-drivetrains, so you could see why I might be biased this way.

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Old 03-19-2007, 11:53 AM   #111
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If anyone thinks you can actually use 400hp on the street, the don't live in the USA! There is NOWHERE on a street that you could realistically use 400hp.

It only takes ~ 80hp to go 80mph.

From a standing start I doubt you could hook more than 200-300hp on your average street asphalt (less if you live in the N. East).

Hell, even if your running to the grocery store on drag radials you probably couldn't use that much hp...

But we all want more don't we? For my part, I plan on taking more visits to race tracks, SCCA events, and closed course driving training events to make use of all this newfound hp, as thats the only real place to actually use it!

550hp LS9? Yes please!

~LSx

You know what, I say they should scrap this whole LS3/LS9 business, even scrap the 3.9L V6 idea and just make the Iron Duke engine standard. That, and throw on some 15 inch wire wheels on 60 series tires.
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Old 03-19-2007, 12:18 PM   #112
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I think this trend will continue as long as we have non-hybrid sports cars... hp will always sell cars because it means fun-to-drive. But in reality, we like high HP cars because they generate a lot of TORQUE... and TORQUE is what makes a car feel fast.

~LSx
Do you mean the trend of high HP cars, or increasing HP in cars? agree that Hp will remain high, but I really have to wonder how high they will go. IMO 425-450 hp is boarderline rediculous for anyone who who does not have any intentions in using this car to race in some way (not street racing). Of course Iwill still get one even though i think it is rediculous (counterintuitive, i know).

But seriously, of the people that will buy a new camaro with 400-450Hp, how many would actually notice the difference in a 350HP Camaro and taken even further, how many will actually use the 75-100 extra HP?

I think what will eventually happen is that insurance companies will ruin the horsepower wars and we will resort back to the 300-350 range... guess we will have to wait and see.
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Old 03-19-2007, 01:57 PM   #113
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Do you mean the trend of high HP cars, or increasing HP in cars? agree that Hp will remain high, but I really have to wonder how high they will go. IMO 425-450 hp is boarderline rediculous for anyone who who does not have any intentions in using this car to race in some way (not street racing). Of course Iwill still get one even though i think it is rediculous (counterintuitive, i know).
I meant the trend of continuously increasing HP in cars in general... HP in general ONLY translates into higher top speeds... you need exponentially greater power to go faster.

If I remember right, the power required to go faster rises by the cube, so to go twice as fast it takes 8 times the power! So IF it takes 80hp to go 80mph, then it would take 640hp to go 160mph! Since cars with less than 640hp can go 160, we can assume that it takes much less than 80hp to go 80mph...

In any case we should be happy with the fun we've got... the future is just going to be better, and we'll just have to wait for it.

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Old 03-19-2007, 02:15 PM   #114
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Absolutely...I have thought over the idea of electric sports cars, Camaros, Corvettes, Ferrari's, and anything else that comes to mind. It's crazy, but I don't think I'd mind anymore.

The year that GM introduces an electric-drive train Camaro, I will keep an open mind.

I wanted to bring this up...to show that the future may not be so bleak as some might think(as I thought). The Chevrolet Volt is said to produce approx. 120 kilowatts (160hp) of power. The Tesla roadster, which is built for speed, gets 189 kilowatts (253 hp), and can go from 0 to 60 in 4 seconds. So the Volt will probably have very generous acceleration as well. the numbers really aren't that far off.

For those of you who like torque no.'s, the Volt has 236 pound-feet, and the Roadster has about 210 pound-feet. I'm liking the way the numbers are working out in the future of electric cars.
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Old 03-19-2007, 09:58 PM   #115
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“How much horse power is too much for the street”? In my opinion it comes down to what each individual is capable of handling. Oh yes here it comes, wait for it, wait for it, “COMMON SENSE”… “The problem with common sense is it ant so common”… :eek:
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Old 03-20-2007, 03:21 AM   #116
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“How much horse power is too much for the street”? In my opinion it comes down to what each individual is capable of handling. Oh yes here it comes, wait for it, wait for it, “COMMON SENSE”… “The problem with common sense is it ant so common”… :eek:


Ain't that the truth!
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Old 03-20-2007, 08:10 AM   #117
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“How much horse power is too much for the street”? In my opinion it comes down to what each individual is capable of handling. Oh yes here it comes, wait for it, wait for it, “COMMON SENSE”… “The problem with common sense is it ant so common”… :eek:
In principle, I absolutely agree. But if you give _anyone_ that much power, someday they _might_ try to use it. Regardless of training, experience, etc...

The question was more related to the actual _physics_ of using all that power. There simply isn't anyplace to actually use these monstrous amounts of power on the street! 550hp? Can-Am cars had that much power. NASCAR stockers are pretty close to that! Thats almost twice what every WRC car has!

If I were a betting man, I wager that the new Supra is going to have a hybrid drivetrain, and will 'only' make about 325hp, but it will probably make ~400lbft of torque at 0 rpm. Combine that with a really good traction contro system, and you have a nearly unbeatable street-combo. Great performance, great mileage, and a 'clear conscience' (which seems to count for so much these days... hipocrits).

Anyway... sorry to pull this thread off topic.

~LSx
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Old 03-20-2007, 08:36 AM   #118
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In principle, I absolutely agree. But if you give _anyone_ that much power, someday they _might_ try to use it. Regardless of training, experience, etc...

The question was more related to the actual _physics_ of using all that power. There simply isn't anyplace to actually use these monstrous amounts of power on the street! 550hp? Can-Am cars had that much power. NASCAR stockers are pretty close to that! Thats almost twice what every WRC car has!

If I were a betting man, I wager that the new Supra is going to have a hybrid drivetrain, and will 'only' make about 325hp, but it will probably make ~400lbft of torque at 0 rpm. Combine that with a really good traction contro system, and you have a nearly unbeatable street-combo. Great performance, great mileage, and a 'clear conscience' (which seems to count for so much these days... hipocrits).

Anyway... sorry to pull this thread off topic.

~LSx


Good call!

Interestingly enough I was reading somewhere (I forget where) that they are considering having somekind of a driving course requirement for anyone that purchases the new s/c corvette. I found this pretty interesting as I can not think of any other mass-produced car that requires this. However, when you can now purchase a 650HP car for around the six figure mark, a part of me wants to think that there should be some other criteria for ownership other than just having a fat wallet.
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Old 03-20-2007, 03:47 PM   #119
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In principle, I absolutely agree. But if you give _anyone_ that much power, someday they _might_ try to use it. Regardless of training, experience, etc...

The question was more related to the actual _physics_ of using all that power. There simply isn't anyplace to actually use these monstrous amounts of power on the street! 550hp? Can-Am cars had that much power. NASCAR stockers are pretty close to that! Thats almost twice what every WRC car has!

If I were a betting man, I wager that the new Supra is going to have a hybrid drivetrain, and will 'only' make about 325hp, but it will probably make ~400lbft of torque at 0 rpm. Combine that with a really good traction contro system, and you have a nearly unbeatable street-combo. Great performance, great mileage, and a 'clear conscience' (which seems to count for so much these days... hipocrits).

Anyway... sorry to pull this thread off topic.

~LSx
I see what you’re getting at and I’m sure all of us have asked our self that exact same question over the past few years with all the HP gains. Are you saying, If diver A has 400 + horse power then they are defiantly going to use it and destroy something, kill someone, or worse yet, take over the world. Whereas, if driver B has only 150 horse power they will obey all traffic laws with their hands in the 3 and 9 o’clock position?

150 MPH is 150 MPH no matter how much horse power it took to get there... Just as, reckless driving is reckless driving no matter if it is performed in “Super Car” or a “4 banger”…

On a side note, here’s how I would use my 400 + HP:
Drive to work.
Drive to the grocery store as well as other errand running .
A kitty magnet (meow)…
A nice summer Sunday drive threw the WM county back roads with the windows down.
A nice cruse to some of the scenic light houses and piers we have in West Michigan.
Cruses and car shows, Woodward, 28th St. GR, and so on...
Roasting the back tires in a cloud of smoke.
Speeding on the freeway.
Slamming threw the gears as needed…
Track time, both Road and Drag strip.
And last but not least to enjoy my life.
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Old 03-20-2007, 03:56 PM   #120
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I see what you’re getting at and I’m sure all of us have asked our self that exact same question over the past few years with all the HP gains. Are you saying, If diver A has 400 + horse power then they are defiantly going to use it and destroy something, kill someone, or worse yet, take over the world. Whereas, if driver B has only 150 horse power they will obey all traffic laws with their hands in the 3 and 9 o’clock position?

150 MPH is 150 MPH no matter how much horse power it took to get there... Just as, reckless driving is reckless driving no matter if it is performed in “Super Car” or a “4 banger”…
Just as I said eariler, you can turn a 100 hp car into just as deadly of a weapon as you can a 400 HP car.

I think what it really comes down to is the type of personality a 400 HP car attracts. For example: You can put my wife in a 1000 HP car or her 100HP car and she will inevitably drive them both the exact same way; going no more than 10 over the speed limit and gently accelerating at stop lights. Put me in that situation and as I said before, i will go through a tank of gas and a set of tires in 30 minutes.

My point is that high horse power cars, in my opinion, attract the type of people who are naturally going to be more adventurous and risk takers, which leads to wreckless driving and accidents. Since you are going to attract people like this (i.e. me) horsepower becomes an issue becasue we will continually push a car to its limits; sometimes in places where it should not be done (next to a mustang at a red light )
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Old 03-20-2007, 04:04 PM   #121
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My point is that high horse power cars, in my opinion, attract the type of people who are naturally going to be more adventurous and risk takers, which leads to wreckless driving and accidents. Since you are going to attract people like this (i.e. me) horsepower becomes an issue becasue we will continually push a car to its limits; sometimes in places where it should not be done (next to a mustang at a red light )
Right, but that’s where your better judgment and “COMMON SENSE” is suppose to kick in. You’re 25 now, no more having any fun behind the wheel Mr.…
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Old 03-22-2007, 02:28 AM   #122
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150 MPH is 150 MPH no matter how much horse power it took to get there... Just as, reckless driving is reckless driving no matter if it is performed in “Super Car” or a “4 banger”…
Speed IS speed, but a typical 4 banger running 150 mph is no where near as stable as a super car designed with the aerodynamics, suspension, and braking to still be responsive at high speed.

I'm just nitpicking I guess, but some cars are more dangerous at high speeds than others.

Which also proves the point I guess. A factory that produces a 400 hp car would probably design it to satisfactorily harness that power. Hopefully, not to the point where 400 hp is just a number and electronic controls keep it from ever really reaching its potential.


Anyway, I think we are getting into an era where engines are more powerful than the muscle cars of yore.

Back in the day most muscle cars had 300-400hp, and 350-450 tq. Though many were underrated for insurance reasons, they were also based on gross engine ratings. Not to mention that even with all the power from the factory old muscle cars were still 13 and 14 second rides out of the factory.
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Old 03-23-2007, 03:01 PM   #123
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Just thought I'd give this a BUMP in celebration of the 5 week mark before we officialy get some information on the LS3

I was, once again, reading on the corvette forums and apparently there are some people that have it on very good authority (someone's brother works at the St. Catherines Powerplant factory--wonder if you know him 3Whiterag) that we are all going to be very pleasantly suprised because the LS3 is in fact rated at 450HP, not 425 hp like most people are suspecting.

We will all see for sure in 5 weeks!
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Old 03-24-2007, 10:14 AM   #124
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Forgive me, but what's in five weeks(?), I think I'm outta the loop on this one.

Oh and BTW, I posted a thread that gives directions to some preliminary info on the LS3's foundation, the L92 truck engine.

I found it kinda interesting.....
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Old 03-24-2007, 02:11 PM   #125
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Posts: 754
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragoneye View Post
Forgive me, but what's in five weeks(?), I think I'm outta the loop on this one.

Oh and BTW, I posted a thread that gives directions to some preliminary info on the LS3's foundation, the L92 truck engine.

I found it kinda interesting.....
The unveiling of the 2008 Corvette is in 5 weeks at the Corvette museum. That is when they release all of the specifications and information on the new model, which will have the LS3.
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