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Old 08-30-2009, 12:06 PM   #1
Kyle2k
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Setting up an IRS/Drivetrain for Drag Racing

What exactly makes a good IRS suspension setup for drag racing? What components should be upgraded? I understand that things like upgraded sway bars (as this is for cornering) won't be necessary - but what is important?

As for the drivetrain- it seems like solid motor, transmission, and differential mounts would be a good place to start.

All advice on this topic would be greatly appreciated!
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Old 08-30-2009, 01:20 PM   #2
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One of the things that makes a huge difference is just how much HP you will run. Some of our Pedders dealers has already busted rear axles with just a tune. So this is a big area of concern.

Pedders will have solid rear diff mount bushings, your choice of either an entire rear cradle bushing set or hd cradle bushing inserts, and all of the bushings for the rear suspension assembly. We have not yet tested our Xa coil overs for drag racing yet. But you will be able to raise the back end approx 1 inch over OE height for those that want the big meats in the back.

You will also want our Pedders rear eccentric adjuster kits. You will not be able to get the rear cambers where you would want for an effective tire patch for drags.

You will probably want to install our front caster adjusters as well. this will assist you in a better straight line steering.

So this should be a good start for everyone.

mike
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Old 09-02-2009, 06:07 PM   #3
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Pfadt IRS Drag Set-Up info

Pfadt Racing has helped put the power down in the fastest IRS Corvettes in the World with our suspension and powertrain mounting products. We will have the same set-up for the Camaro as well. Here is what I'd recommend.

Pfadt Camaro Coil Overs with Drag front springs will keep the back end tight not allowing it to squat thus keeping your alignment where it needs to be and the tire contact patch as large as possible; I'd recommend a setting of 10 for the rear damping to start. The Drag front springs will allow the front end to lift and transfer the weight to the rear and control the car coming back down; I would set the front at 1-2 on the damping.



Pfadt Camaro Balance Rear Sway Bar will make the IRS behave more like a solid axle by keeping the rear control arms in line. What happens on launch is the right rear compresses and the left rear lifts; the bar will help minimize this greatly.



Pfadt Poly C-Arm Bushings will help reduce unwanted deflection in the rear suspension including toe-in which effectively reduces the efficiency as the tires slide, wheel hop and it will keep everything where it is supposed to be.



Pfadt Engine mounts will remove unwanted powertrain move and make for more responsive throttle inputs and they keep everything where it's supposed to be.



We also have a trans mount, diff bushings and solid subframe mounts that I would recommend. Pfadt Race Engineering knows suspension and how to make a car work. Please feel free to call or email us anytime with questions.

Kind regards,
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Old 09-02-2009, 09:57 PM   #4
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Quote:
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Pfadt Camaro Coil Overs with Drag front springs will keep the back end tight not allowing it to squat thus keeping your alignment where it needs to be and the tire contact patch as large as possible; I'd recommend a setting of 10 for the rear damping to start. The Drag front springs will allow the front end to lift and transfer the weight to the rear and control the car coming back down; I would set the front at 1-2 on the damping.

Pfadt Camaro Balance Rear Sway Bar will make the IRS behave more like a solid axle by keeping the rear control arms in line. What happens on launch is the right rear compresses and the left rear lifts; the bar will help minimize this greatly.
Jordan -

Per the needs of the SST Camaro, how much of a detriment would it be to run Drag front springs if the car is also used on open highway runs or road course?

Thanks in Advance.
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Old 09-02-2009, 10:17 PM   #5
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The Pedders Xa coil overs can be set up for drag racing pretty easily. But with softer springs for the front, you will experience some reduced handling thru he aggressive twisties. Adding Pedders rear aggressive sway bar with adjustable end links, solid rear diff mount bushings, solid rear cradle bushings, replacing all the rear arm bushings to keep down wheel shake, and installing our Pedders rear eccentric package that will get you a lot more camber and toe change than OE, plus seriously more reliable than OE, you will have a fine package, Our Pedders eXtreme Xa coil overs can lift the back end about an inch if you need to compensate for some serious tires.

thanks
mike
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Old 09-03-2009, 08:02 AM   #6
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The Pedders Xa coil overs can be set up for drag racing pretty easily. But with softer springs for the front, you will experience some reduced handling thru he aggressive twisties. Adding Pedders rear aggressive sway bar with adjustable end links, solid rear diff mount bushings, solid rear cradle bushings, replacing all the rear arm bushings to keep down wheel shake, and installing our Pedders rear eccentric package that will get you a lot more camber and toe change than OE, plus seriously more reliable than OE, you will have a fine package, Our Pedders eXtreme Xa coil overs can lift the back end about an inch if you need to compensate for some serious tires.

thanks
mike
dms
thanks for the info Mike.
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Old 09-03-2009, 11:57 AM   #7
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Ill be the third party opinion, with some experience to back it up.

I am not sure of Pedders, and really have no experience with their products, so have that as some back ground.

As for Pfadt, we have been racing with them for over and year now, and their knowledge has propelled our corvette racers to faster times, at the strip and the course.

Jordan hits the nail on the head but I will re address with how to properly hook up your camaro, based on our history. Here is a nice video of how and IRS car can make 1.3 60 fts


The difference is in the design, Pfadt coil-overs are inverted with a aluminum mounted upper hat, that has a spherical bearing. This allows much better modulation of the coil-over, and this is important. You get the maximum ride height adjust-ability out of the suspension while still having full shock travel, which from what I see on the Pedder unit may come into play. So now that you are using the coilovers, you have options, first you will want the front end to sit slightly higher then the rear of the car. That will allow the car to raise smoother and transfer force to the rear tire. Second is setting the dampening, we don't want much rebound up front, so low setting 1-2 range, to allow the suspension to hang longer, and has less Resistance, then set the rears on full rebound to get the shocks from bouncing around, and directing the force (Hp) to the friction patch of the tire. So again coil overs are essential, and pPadt seems to the best technology currently!

Now move to the sway bars, the idea here is to use a big rear sway bar with heavy duty end links. This is help tie the rear of the car together so it will move in together more so, which helps keep traction, versus the wheels fighting each other. Pfadts bars are nice, I have no information on Pedders bar. The Pfadt bar in our corvette made worlds of difference in 60ft time, and allow us to get aggressive with launch control. So the rear sway, get a bigger rear bar, and links, to help tie the rear end together tighter.

Now the control arm bushings, honestly the best for drag racing are spherical bearings, which pfadt has not released. These allow the lowest amount of deflection , and keep the truest alignment settings. We have installed these bearings and lost a whole degree of flex in the alignment, that's HUGE when your going fast. The poly bushings are just the step down, and what we recommend for the street car, they help minimize that deflection and loss of energy you get from the shake under launching. So the summary on bushings get polys if you are street driving the car mainly, and get spherical if you are going all out.

Next lets move to engine and drivetrain mounts. Same theroy, the more solid and rigid the drivetrain is, will allow the mximum amount of horsepower and torque to be used. You actully loose power when the engine and rear end move around. So ungrading the engine mounts is essential, the pfadts are pretty nice i must admit, I have seen a few other prototypes which look ok. The subframe is important as well, get solid mounts, which keeps the drivetrain stable, and most energy efficent.

So in summary
-Coilovers
-Big rear sway
-Some sort of control arm bushings, poly or sperhical
-Engine and subframe mounts, along with a transmount

We have all of pfadt line availble, which is our choice based on what their products have done for us in the corvette market. There stuff is very nice!

Good luck fellows, any questions feel free, I can certainly expand further!

Regards
-Brandon
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Old 09-03-2009, 01:33 PM   #8
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Jordan -

Per the needs of the SST Camaro, how much of a detriment would it be to run Drag front springs if the car is also used on open highway runs or road course?

Thanks in Advance.
If you're planning on doing a dual purpose set-up I would stick with the standard coil over package. It will work for everything you're looking to do. If Drag Racing was your main focus with mild street driving then the softer/longer front spring would be the ticket. We have a lot of Corvettes running our stand coil over package that are doing Autocross, Track Days (HPDE), Drag Racing and street driving. It is a very versatile product!

Please feel free to call or email me anytime!

Kind regards,
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Old 09-03-2009, 02:06 PM   #9
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Just out of curiosity, what constitutes the ~$1400 jump in spherical vs poly C-Arm Bushings?
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Old 09-03-2009, 02:15 PM   #10
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Just out of curiosity, what constitutes the ~$1400 jump in spherical vs poly C-Arm Bushings?
The Spherical Bearings have a lot more to them then the Poly. With the poly you have the Bushings and Hard Anodized inner sleeves. We put the kits into its packaging. With the Bearing kit you have the aluminum housing, Bearings, Snap Rings, Inner Sleeves with special anodizing to bond them into the arms, Loctite 638 and then assembly. The amount of labor and machine time is significantly longer. The packaging is also much more complex. Please feel free to call or email us anytime.

Kind regards,
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Old 09-03-2009, 04:16 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by IPS Brandon View Post
Ill be the third party opinion, with some experience to back it up.

I am not sure of Pedders, and really have no experience with their products, so have that as some back ground.

As for Pfadt, we have been racing with them for over and year now, and their knowledge has propelled our corvette racers to faster times, at the strip and the course.

Jordan hits the nail on the head but I will re address with how to properly hook up your camaro, based on our history. Here is a nice video of how and IRS car can make 1.3 60 fts


The difference is in the design, Pfadt coil-overs are inverted with a aluminum mounted upper hat, that has a spherical bearing. This allows much better modulation of the coil-over, and this is important. You get the maximum ride height adjust-ability out of the suspension while still having full shock travel, which from what I see on the Pedder unit may come into play. So now that you are using the coilovers, you have options, first you will want the front end to sit slightly higher then the rear of the car. That will allow the car to raise smoother and transfer force to the rear tire. Second is setting the dampening, we don't want much rebound up front, so low setting 1-2 range, to allow the suspension to hang longer, and has less Resistance, then set the rears on full rebound to get the shocks from bouncing around, and directing the force (Hp) to the friction patch of the tire. So again coil overs are essential, and pPadt seems to the best technology currently!

Now move to the sway bars, the idea here is to use a big rear sway bar with heavy duty end links. This is help tie the rear of the car together so it will move in together more so, which helps keep traction, versus the wheels fighting each other. Pfadts bars are nice, I have no information on Pedders bar. The Pfadt bar in our corvette made worlds of difference in 60ft time, and allow us to get aggressive with launch control. So the rear sway, get a bigger rear bar, and links, to help tie the rear end together tighter.

Now the control arm bushings, honestly the best for drag racing are spherical bearings, which pfadt has not released. These allow the lowest amount of deflection , and keep the truest alignment settings. We have installed these bearings and lost a whole degree of flex in the alignment, that's HUGE when your going fast. The poly bushings are just the step down, and what we recommend for the street car, they help minimize that deflection and loss of energy you get from the shake under launching. So the summary on bushings get polys if you are street driving the car mainly, and get spherical if you are going all out.

Next lets move to engine and drivetrain mounts. Same theroy, the more solid and rigid the drivetrain is, will allow the mximum amount of horsepower and torque to be used. You actully loose power when the engine and rear end move around. So ungrading the engine mounts is essential, the pfadts are pretty nice i must admit, I have seen a few other prototypes which look ok. The subframe is important as well, get solid mounts, which keeps the drivetrain stable, and most energy efficent.

So in summary
-Coilovers
-Big rear sway
-Some sort of control arm bushings, poly or sperhical
-Engine and subframe mounts, along with a transmount

We have all of pfadt line availble, which is our choice based on what their products have done for us in the corvette market. There stuff is very nice!

Good luck fellows, any questions feel free, I can certainly expand further!

Regards
-Brandon
Hello Brandon,

Not to be a brat or anything, but to say you are a third party opinion when you are a reseller of their parts parts is not an objective review. If it is, I will have 45 or so of our active dealerships express their opinions of Pedders.

There is no one here, including myself, saying anything but good things about your product line.

take care
mike
dms
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Old 09-03-2009, 04:49 PM   #12
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Hello Brandon,

Not to be a brat or anything, but to say you are a third party opinion when you are a reseller of their parts parts is not an objective review. If it is, I will have 45 or so of our active dealerships express their opinions of Pedders.

There is no one here, including myself, saying anything but good things about your product line.

take care
mike
dms
Mike,

Brandon was simply stating that they have one of the fastest IRS Corvettes around and all of 1132 RWHP is being put down through our suspension and drivetrain components. You have loyal dealers talking about your products and that is fine; I don't call them out.

In fact most of the fastest drag Corvettes including the fastest S/C Corvette built by ECS uses our suspension because it works and we know how to tune a chassis. It's going to be the same with the Camaro. If the customer wants a well engineered suspension made for there specific application we'll provide it.

We obviously have different ways of tuning a chassis and that's fine. I guess customers will find out when they hit the track and see who is winning and running the best times. I don't want to go down this path because honestly customers don't want to see it. What are the benefits of your products? What are the benefits of our products? That's all potential customers as well as enthusiast want to know and they can choose.

Kind regards,
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Old 09-03-2009, 06:42 PM   #13
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Mike,

Brandon was simply stating that they have one of the fastest IRS Corvettes around and all of 1132 RWHP is being put down through our suspension and drivetrain components. You have loyal dealers talking about your products and that is fine; I don't call them out.

In fact most of the fastest drag Corvettes including the fastest S/C Corvette built by ECS uses our suspension because it works and we know how to tune a chassis. It's going to be the same with the Camaro. If the customer wants a well engineered suspension made for there specific application we'll provide it.

We obviously have different ways of tuning a chassis and that's fine. I guess customers will find out when they hit the track and see who is winning and running the best times. I don't want to go down this path because honestly customers don't want to see it. What are the benefits of your products? What are the benefits of our products? That's all potential customers as well as enthusiast want to know and they can choose.

Kind regards,

Hi Jordan,

I understand what Brandon was doing and his vehicle is awesome. But a Corvette is not a Camaro. I could post videos of one of your GTO dealers doing a 9 second run , with independent suspension running Pedders suspension and his twin parachutes, and he is only at 60% throttle. But the GTO is not the Camaro.

We both offer this community a great product and it will be up to the individual owners to make their decisions as you mentioned.


We have been thoroughly tested by GM Racing and the engineers at Milford. We have been requested to license our suspension products by GM and are going thru the application process now. It has been a little delayed to to all the reorganization of GM since it has the Obama influence. Maybe we both can come up with a way to get Obama money by qualifying our poly and metal materials will make the Camaro more OBAMA GREEN? LOL


Take care

mike
dms
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Old 09-03-2009, 07:18 PM   #14
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You guys both sell and support excellent products.

We, the enthusiasts, are very appreciative that you do come on this board.

Thank You

I will toss out one more thing if that's OK:
If you know of ANYONE that may be offering HD differentials for the Camaro, please yell !! It is the one component that really has me scrambling for a solution. I have been in contact with Robin at GM, but there nothing out there yet. Any help in locating this type of unit would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks Again.
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Old 09-03-2009, 08:48 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speedster View Post
You guys both sell and support excellent products.

We, the enthusiasts, are very appreciative that you do come on this board.

Thank You

I will toss out one more thing if that's OK:
If you know of ANYONE that may be offering HD differentials for the Camaro, please yell !! It is the one component that really has me scrambling for a solution. I have been in contact with Robin at GM, but there nothing out there yet. Any help in locating this type of unit would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks Again.
Actually, I think the weak link are the axles. 2 different Pedders dealers have done programs only for manuals, and have broken axles! My understanding from GM s the diff is pretty strong. We have a special diff bushings and cradle bushing sets that are solid and a high very high dura. Drag racers and very high hp Camaros will seriously appreciate the control yet sound reducing controls they will offer.

Even though Pedders tests all of our products on the track, the emphasis for our parts, when we look at all spectrums, performance, comfort, noise abatement, durability, we are focused for serious aggressive street applications, that just happen to work on a Track as well.

thanks
mike
dms
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Old 09-03-2009, 09:06 PM   #16
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Actually, I think the weak link are the axles. 2 different Pedders dealers have done programs only for manuals, and have broken axles! My understanding from GM s the diff is pretty strong. We have a special diff bushings and cradle bushing sets that are solid and a high very high dura. Drag racers and very high hp Camaros will seriously appreciate the control yet sound reducing controls they will offer.

Even though Pedders tests all of our products on the track, the emphasis for our parts, when we look at all spectrums, performance, comfort, noise abatement, durability, we are focused for serious aggressive street applications, that just happen to work on a Track as well.

thanks
mike
dms
Thank You for the info, Mike. Yes, the axles were a known weak link right away. Luckily, I have a company that is making HD axles for me. It's that 2 pinion spider and 8.6 ring gear have me more than a little nervous. Robin thinks Eaton is going to build a better center section. The stiffer bushings/cradle that you have though are a necessity... Thanks.
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Old 09-03-2009, 09:49 PM   #17
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Thank You for the info, Mike. Yes, the axles were a known weak link right away. Luckily, I have a company that is making HD axles for me. It's that 2 pinion spider and 8.6 ring gear have me more than a little nervous. Robin thinks Eaton is going to build a better center section. The stiffer bushings/cradle that you have though are a necessity... Thanks.
Hey,

make sure you post about the axles. This is a very serious weakness on the Camaro. That will help a lot of poeple. I will tell you, and I am being sincere, you eliminate the slop in the back end by doing our systems, and you will be putting down a whole lot more torque. So it is important for all to make sure they are practicing good torque management ad are prepared. the OEM suspension sucks up a lot of torque.

thanks
mike
dms
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Old 09-04-2009, 09:03 AM   #18
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Hey,

make sure you post about the axles. This is a very serious weakness on the Camaro. That will help a lot of poeple. I will tell you, and I am being sincere, you eliminate the slop in the back end by doing our systems, and you will be putting down a whole lot more torque. So it is important for all to make sure they are practicing good torque management ad are prepared. the OEM suspension sucks up a lot of torque.

thanks
mike
dms
I can do that. Probably 8 weeks out. My "pro mod" axles are being produced by a prominent driveshaft company.

Thanks Mike
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Old 09-04-2009, 09:54 AM   #19
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Old 09-04-2009, 12:36 PM   #20
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Hi Jordan,

I understand what Brandon was doing and his vehicle is awesome. But a Corvette is not a Camaro. I could post videos of one of your GTO dealers doing a 9 second run , with independent suspension running Pedders suspension and his twin parachutes, and he is only at 60% throttle. But the GTO is not the Camaro.

We both offer this community a great product and it will be up to the individual owners to make their decisions as you mentioned.


We have been thoroughly tested by GM Racing and the engineers at Milford. We have been requested to license our suspension products by GM and are going thru the application process now. It has been a little delayed to to all the reorganization of GM since it has the Obama influence. Maybe we both can come up with a way to get Obama money by qualifying our poly and metal materials will make the Camaro more OBAMA GREEN? LOL


Take care

mike
dms
Mike,

Just like a Camaro isn't a G8 or a GTO which you've posted a ton of skid pad info for..... In fact the G8 is a completely different animal compared to the Camaro and the GTO is even further... Another thing we differ on is changing the wheels and tires; that is far from a direct comparison. Tires will make a huge difference but we aren't tire manufactures. What does your suspension do alone? I think for the customer that is what is important.

I commend you for working on the GM deal. There is certainly more involved there than having the best products; a lot of politics for sure. I've been involved in the Automotive aftermarket my entire life and I know how all of that works.

Kind regards,
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Old 09-04-2009, 12:41 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speedster View Post
You guys both sell and support excellent products.

We, the enthusiasts, are very appreciative that you do come on this board.

Thank You

I will toss out one more thing if that's OK:
If you know of ANYONE that may be offering HD differentials for the Camaro, please yell !! It is the one component that really has me scrambling for a solution. I have been in contact with Robin at GM, but there nothing out there yet. Any help in locating this type of unit would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks Again.
Thank you for the kind remarks!!

Keep us all posted on the HD axles. We'll send a lot of customers your direction! We also have our Engine Mounts, Trans Mount, Solid Sub-frame bushings and Diff bushing to help keep everything where it should be. They will prevent a lot of breakage as well.

Kind regards,
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Old 09-04-2009, 01:06 PM   #22
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Thank you for the kind remarks!!

Keep us all posted on the HD axles. We'll send a lot of customers your direction! We also have our Engine Mounts, Trans Mount, Solid Sub-frame bushings and Diff bushing to help keep everything where it should be. They will prevent a lot of breakage as well.

Kind regards,
Hey Jordan -

This is a custom "one off" set being made for me (I'm just a car guy, not a car business) but I bet the manufacturer would be happy to know that there is a demand/pipeline for them to do it.

Take Care,
Bruce
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Old 09-04-2009, 01:22 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jordan View Post
Mike,

Just like a Camaro isn't a G8 or a GTO which you've posted a ton of skid pad info for..... In fact the G8 is a completely different animal compared to the Camaro and the GTO is even further... Another thing we differ on is changing the wheels and tires; that is far from a direct comparison. Tires will make a huge difference but we aren't tire manufactures. What does your suspension do alone? I think for the customer that is what is important.

I commend you for working on the GM deal. There is certainly more involved there than having the best products; a lot of politics for sure. I've been involved in the Automotive aftermarket my entire life and I know how all of that works.

Kind regards,
There is a serious relationship between the G8 and the Camaro since both are Zeta platforms. The design is identical, but the Camaro a larger front radius rod bushing, but eliminated adjustability, which we have fixed, a larger rear cradle bushing assembly, changed some of the link bolts from a 12 to a 14mm mounting bolt, eliminated the lower control arm outer bushing, and changed the strut heights and coils to accomodate body shape, and different bends on the sway bars to again acommodate again body shape and sizes.

We have tons of time invested in the G8 and had no issues in making one that would out perform a Z06 on an open track with only 275 tires.. This gave us a lot of insight on the Camaro with the shorter wheel base, massive body role and understeer. So of all the vehicle combos, the G8 is the most appropriate vehicle to compare.

Have a great weekend!

mike
dms
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Old 09-04-2009, 01:23 PM   #24
PfadtRacing
 
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Drives: 2010 Camaro, 2006 Z06
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ECS C5 Vert 1.2 60ft!!!!

I want to say congrats to Doug and the ECS crew for laying down a 1.28 sec. 60ft!!!! The car ran an 8.70 ET at 157 mph!!!!! This is the first IRS Vette into the 1.2 60ft range and it was done with our suspension and drivetrain components!

HERE is the thread on Corvette forum!


Kind regards,

Last edited by PfadtRacing; 09-04-2009 at 02:50 PM.
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Old 09-04-2009, 01:38 PM   #25
PfadtRacing
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dms View Post
There is a serious relationship between the G8 and the Camaro since both are Zeta platforms. The design is identical, but the Camaro a larger front radius rod bushing, but eliminated adjustability, which we have fixed, a larger rear cradle bushing assembly, changed some of the link bolts from a 12 to a 14mm mounting bolt, eliminated the lower control arm outer bushing, and changed the strut heights and coils to accomodate body shape, and different bends on the sway bars to again acommodate again body shape and sizes.

We have tons of time invested in the G8 and had no issues in making one that would out perform a Z06 on an open track with only 275 tires.. This gave us a lot of insight on the Camaro with the shorter wheel base, massive body role and understeer. So of all the vehicle combos, the G8 is the most appropriate vehicle to compare.

Have a great weekend!

mike
dms
I agree they both use a ZETA platform but they are totally different cars. The weight/COG is different and that means the balance is different. As you mentioned the Camaro is shorter; again this changes the dynamics. This means the sway rates will be different along with the damping and spring rate of the coil overs. We design parts for each specific chassis and application.

You keep saying you'll beat a Z06. What was done to the Z06 and what was done to the G8? Was the same driver driving each car? I could beat a lot of Z06's in a Miata if the Z06 driver was a beginner. We've got a Z06 and I'll bring it out if you want to run it against your G8. We'll even run on the Run flats. Just name the place.

Kind regards,
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