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Old 09-18-2009, 10:27 AM   #76
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LMAO.........the car is a pig. The only thing saving it is the new horsepower. Get mad if you want but without this new increased horsepower you all would be crying. 3900 is a pig for a Pony car. Just face it.
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Old 09-18-2009, 10:29 AM   #77
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LMAO.........the car is a pig. The only thing saving it is the new horsepower. Get mad if you want but without this new increased horsepower you all would be crying. 3900 is a pig for a Pony car. Just face it.
It would still beat your 6 series.
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Old 09-18-2009, 10:41 AM   #78
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It would still beat your 6 series.


That's cool with me. I'll give you a thumbs up as you pull away too.
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Old 09-18-2009, 11:03 AM   #79
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I don't plan on autocrossing the car, and I don't plan on drag-racing it. The car will probably hardly ever see the light of day on the track. I simply like a vehicle with a reasonable power/weight ratio because I like the feeling of a car that is light on its feet. I'm not looking for this Camaro to feel like an STi. I'm looking for a car where I can leave the mechanics UNMODIFIED, and have excellent performance. My basic goal is to have the "Ultimate Camaro." The Camaro's a good car, but IMO, its weight keeps it from being great. It has the hardware; the power, IRS, big brakes. It doesn't have the moves.

This car will mainly be a weekend toy, so I don't mind going with a base model or skimping on options. I plan on taking it out on back roads, and probably taking it to some shows. Some people own Miatas as toys. I want a Camaro.

I'm not above going out and buying a Mustang GT with a Track Pack, and if that's what I have to do, then I guess that's what I'll have to do, but I want a Camaro. I'm tired of hearing, "Oh, the Mustang's slow, and the Camaro's faster. The Mustang has a live-axle suspension, the Camaro has an IRS. Blah blah blah." Yeah, that's all great. I've heard it all before, and it's a broken record, but I've driven them both; a Mustang and a Camaro, and the Mustang feels much lighter on its feet than the Camaro. I want a Camaro that feels nearly as light on its feet, and I have no problems with removing things to get that.
Being overweight and not being light on its feet are not necessarily the same thing.
I want a car that is responsive, handles well, and is quick aka "light on its feet".

How do you do that to a 3,850 lb. car?
Start with a rigid body & frame (the Camaro's is excellent).
Tune the suspension to be ultra responsive (See Pedders full coilover, sway, etc. kit).
Put on forged lightweight 19" wheels and tires (All 4 corners sizes matching). The big & heavy 20" wheels & tires are probably the biggest single culprit to the heavy nonresponsive feel.
Lose any unnecessary weight (lighter seats, exhaust, etc.)
Finally add supercharger for more power to weight ratio (this option is not necessary as you will have lost some weight in doing the previous mods).

By doing this this car will "FEEL" & perform unbelievably. Few cars will match this kind of performance!

Last edited by 2cnd chance; 09-18-2009 at 11:21 AM.
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Old 09-18-2009, 11:06 AM   #80
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I declare this thread "FAIL" in every sense of the word. A perfect example of perception ruling reality...

If some of you are so deluded to think that weight is the only factor...and therefore it's a poorly handling pig because of it, then fine...enjoy your baseless opinion. I'm done.


And thank you for answering my questions, Rated Z. BUT...
#1...this car handles as well as many lighter sports cars out there...forgive me if I doubt you actually drove it around the corners you plan to do with the real car. The car is on rails.

#2...that IRS setup in the cobra Mustang was a joke, Rated Z, not to mention that the car did not comply to current saftey standards.

And #3...you CANNOT remove anywhere NEAR 500lbs and still daily-drive it. The saftey is built into the body...the structure, the IRS is bullet-proof, the engine is a "heavy" V8, and the transmission is heavier than others to handle it's outrageous power. The brakes are heavier than a standard cars because they can stop the car in a mere 104 FEET from 60mph...that's approaching supercar territory on factory brake pads and rotors. You CANNOT remove the radio, because it controls some functions of the car, and by removing the AC compressor, fluid and lines, you might save 75 lbs. You could probably take the front and rear impact bars off of the car...there's some 40-50lbs a piece, and you can replace the mufflers for another 10 lbs of weight per resonator. You can replace the wheels and rims with 18" skinny-spokes...maybe saving another 20 lbs total...

So...are you really going to put in all this effort just to add 25hp worth of performance and a negligible handling improvement?



Look, I appreciate where you're coming from...weight is bad, and this car has more than its share of it. But guess what? We can't do anything about it. There's no "weight compartment" on the car that you can just empty out. It's all built in to provide you with class-leading saftey, style, performance, and VALUE.

I reccomend you call Pedders to modify the suspension, install an intake and a tune, and you'll accomplish MORE than your performance goals for far less $$ and headaches.

Otherwise, you're just trying to catch the wind......
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Old 09-18-2009, 11:55 AM   #81
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Remove the airbags, the steel bar inside the doors, air conditioner, window mechanisms, headliner, carpet (trunk too), turn signals (nobody uses them anyway), headlight switch (you have DRL's just leave them on), reverse lights (you can't see backing up anyway), catalytic converter, mufflers, the foam behind the 2.5 mph bumpers, you only need 3 lugs on each wheel, put helium in your tires....
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Old 09-18-2009, 12:04 PM   #82
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Old 09-18-2009, 12:15 PM   #83
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In the OP's defense, I can't believe how quickly some of you get offended by the slightest comment. It's like you've somehow directly linked your personal ego's to your car. The OP doesn't appear to be a ricer owner by his avatar message. His concern is legit and others have brought it up- they just didn't use the word "pig" so no one cried.

Also there's a lot of confusion on the difference between "grip" and "handling".

But to the OP, 500lbs is alot- you would struggle to hit that. I'd just do the wheels and tires and the mufflers (because I'd do those anyway).
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Old 09-18-2009, 12:20 PM   #84
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I declare this thread "FAIL" in every sense of the word. A perfect example of perception ruling reality...

If some of you are so deluded to think that weight is the only factor...and therefore it's a poorly handling pig because of it, then fine...enjoy your baseless opinion. I'm done.


And thank you for answering my questions, Rated Z. BUT...
#1...this car handles as well as many lighter sports cars out there...forgive me if I doubt you actually drove it around the corners you plan to do with the real car. The car is on rails.

#2...that IRS setup in the cobra Mustang was a joke, Rated Z, not to mention that the car did not comply to current saftey standards.

And #3...you CANNOT remove anywhere NEAR 500lbs and still daily-drive it. The saftey is built into the body...the structure, the IRS is bullet-proof, the engine is a "heavy" V8, and the transmission is heavier than others to handle it's outrageous power. The brakes are heavier than a standard cars because they can stop the car in a mere 104 FEET from 60mph...that's approaching supercar territory on factory brake pads and rotors. You CANNOT remove the radio, because it controls some functions of the car, and by removing the AC compressor, fluid and lines, you might save 75 lbs. You could probably take the front and rear impact bars off of the car...there's some 40-50lbs a piece, and you can replace the mufflers for another 10 lbs of weight per resonator. You can replace the wheels and rims with 18" skinny-spokes...maybe saving another 20 lbs total...

So...are you really going to put in all this effort just to add 25hp worth of performance and a negligible handling improvement?



Look, I appreciate where you're coming from...weight is bad, and this car has more than its share of it. But guess what? We can't do anything about it. There's no "weight compartment" on the car that you can just empty out. It's all built in to provide you with class-leading saftey, style, performance, and VALUE.

I reccomend you call Pedders to modify the suspension, install an intake and a tune, and you'll accomplish MORE than your performance goals for far less $$ and headaches.

Otherwise, you're just trying to catch the wind......
X10000000

bench racing alert:

Every 10 lbs = roughly 1 horsepower. Losing 500 pounds off this thing will only net you 50 HP. Granted it would handle better though.

So here's the solution: Get some suspension mods, an intake, headers and exhaust and you will 'Feel' lighter. AND have a complete interior. And come in cheaper.
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Old 09-18-2009, 12:20 PM   #85
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John, what is your opinion of your new SS on back roads? Are you going to be driving it to the meet on September 26th?
Dan,

I have driven it on back roads and I love the way it handles. We took all back roads when driving it home from Tom Henry. I would say it handles as well as my wife's BMW Z4 for the type of driving that I do. However, I probably don't drive it as aggressively as you might on back roads. I have no doubt that the Z4 would fair better in curves at high speed. However, the Camaro is MUCH more comfortable and gets much more attention.

It certainly handles way better than my 69 Zs, which weigh in at 3,500 lbs. The reasons are probably obvious: 21st century suspension, better steering, turning radius, etc.

I have also been thinking about your question and I am having a very hard time seeing how you can reasonably eliminate 450 lbs from this car.

Unfortunately, I may not make the meeting on the 26th.
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Old 09-18-2009, 12:29 PM   #86
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I declare this thread "FAIL" in every sense of the word. A perfect example of perception ruling reality...

If some of you are so deluded to think that weight is the only factor...and therefore it's a poorly handling pig because of it, then fine...enjoy your baseless opinion. I'm done.


And thank you for answering my questions, Rated Z. BUT...
#1...this car handles as well as many lighter sports cars out there...forgive me if I doubt you actually drove it around the corners you plan to do with the real car. The car is on rails.

#2...that IRS setup in the cobra Mustang was a joke, Rated Z, not to mention that the car did not comply to current saftey standards.

And #3...you CANNOT remove anywhere NEAR 500lbs and still daily-drive it. The saftey is built into the body...the structure, the IRS is bullet-proof, the engine is a "heavy" V8, and the transmission is heavier than others to handle it's outrageous power. The brakes are heavier than a standard cars because they can stop the car in a mere 104 FEET from 60mph...that's approaching supercar territory on factory brake pads and rotors. You CANNOT remove the radio, because it controls some functions of the car, and by removing the AC compressor, fluid and lines, you might save 75 lbs. You could probably take the front and rear impact bars off of the car...there's some 40-50lbs a piece, and you can replace the mufflers for another 10 lbs of weight per resonator. You can replace the wheels and rims with 18" skinny-spokes...maybe saving another 20 lbs total...

So...are you really going to put in all this effort just to add 25hp worth of performance and a negligible handling improvement?



Look, I appreciate where you're coming from...weight is bad, and this car has more than its share of it. But guess what? We can't do anything about it. There's no "weight compartment" on the car that you can just empty out. It's all built in to provide you with class-leading saftey, style, performance, and VALUE.

I reccomend you call Pedders to modify the suspension, install an intake and a tune, and you'll accomplish MORE than your performance goals for far less $$ and headaches.

Otherwise, you're just trying to catch the wind......
The weight diminishes the fuel economy. I would like to see a lighter Camaro in the future capable of 35 mpg (highway).
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Old 09-18-2009, 12:38 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by All-Or-Nothing View Post
LMAO.........the car is a pig. The only thing saving it is the new horsepower. Get mad if you want but without this new increased horsepower you all would be crying. 3900 is a pig for a Pony car. Just face it.
THANK YOU. THANK YOU! Reality sucks, and apparently, that's what I'm having a problem accepting.

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Originally Posted by Dragoneye View Post


I declare this thread "FAIL" in every sense of the word. A perfect example of perception ruling reality...

If some of you are so deluded to think that weight is the only factor...and therefore it's a poorly handling pig because of it, then fine...enjoy your baseless opinion. I'm done.


And thank you for answering my questions, Rated Z. BUT...
#1...this car handles as well as many lighter sports cars out there...forgive me if I doubt you actually drove it around the corners you plan to do with the real car. The car is on rails.

#2...that IRS setup in the cobra Mustang was a joke, Rated Z, not to mention that the car did not comply to current saftey standards.

And #3...you CANNOT remove anywhere NEAR 500lbs and still daily-drive it. The saftey is built into the body...the structure, the IRS is bullet-proof, the engine is a "heavy" V8, and the transmission is heavier than others to handle it's outrageous power. The brakes are heavier than a standard cars because they can stop the car in a mere 104 FEET from 60mph...that's approaching supercar territory on factory brake pads and rotors. You CANNOT remove the radio, because it controls some functions of the car, and by removing the AC compressor, fluid and lines, you might save 75 lbs. You could probably take the front and rear impact bars off of the car...there's some 40-50lbs a piece, and you can replace the mufflers for another 10 lbs of weight per resonator. You can replace the wheels and rims with 18" skinny-spokes...maybe saving another 20 lbs total...

So...are you really going to put in all this effort just to add 25hp worth of performance and a negligible handling improvement?



Look, I appreciate where you're coming from...weight is bad, and this car has more than its share of it. But guess what? We can't do anything about it. There's no "weight compartment" on the car that you can just empty out. It's all built in to provide you with class-leading saftey, style, performance, and VALUE.

I reccomend you call Pedders to modify the suspension, install an intake and a tune, and you'll accomplish MORE than your performance goals for far less $$ and headaches.

Otherwise, you're just trying to catch the wind......
Ok, to use your terminology, your post is a complete FAIL. That's fine that the IRS on the '03-'04 Cobra was a complete joke, but a 3900 lb "pony car" that weighs as much as a 1971 Caprice is the punch-line.

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In the OP's defense, I can't believe how quickly some of you get offended by the slightest comment. It's like you've somehow directly linked your personal ego's to your car. The OP doesn't appear to be a ricer owner by his avatar message. His concern is legit and others have brought it up- they just didn't use the word "pig" so no one cried.

Also there's a lot of confusion on the difference between "grip" and "handling".

But to the OP, 500lbs is alot- you would struggle to hit that. I'd just do the wheels and tires and the mufflers (because I'd do those anyway).
Thanks for the defense. Okay, reviewing everything, maybe 500 lbs is too much, and I did view Chevy's website, and the 1SS was rated at 3850 lbs. Maybe it would be possible to cut...300 lbs?

And also, thanks for noticing I'm not a ricer. Apparently, my signature didn't quite give that away. That's great that some of these people are "stuck on GM" or whatever, but I'm not. I enjoy a variety of performance machines, and as long as it's either RWD or AWD, I'm there. I wouldn't drag-race an STi, the same as I wouldn't rally a Camaro. Apparently, it's a mortal sin on this forum to have a respect and admiration for cars other than those manufactured by GM or with something other than a RWD drivetrain.

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Dan,

I have driven it on back roads and I love the way it handles. We took all back roads when driving it home from Tom Henry. I would say it handles as well as my wife's BMW Z4 for the type of driving that I do. However, I probably don't drive it as aggressively as you might on back roads. I have no doubt that the Z4 would fair better in curves at high speed. However, the Camaro is MUCH more comfortable and gets much more attention.

It certainly handles way better than my 69 Zs, which weigh in at 3,500 lbs. The reasons are probably obvious: 21st century suspension, better steering, turning radius, etc.

I have also been thinking about your question and I am having a very hard time seeing how you can reasonably eliminate 450 lbs from this car.

Unfortunately, I may not make the meeting on the 26th.
Okay, maybe I was "jumping ahead of myself" with wanting to cut 450 lbs out of this car. I guess I'd just like something that I can lighten a tad.

Someone asked, "What sort of power/weight ratio are you looking to achieve?" I'd like to whittle it down to around 7.8 pounds for every horse. I'm sure I'm going to get more than a few "get a supercharger" responses, and while I can do that, a supercharger isn't going to lower the weight or help me achieve better handling.
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Old 09-18-2009, 12:45 PM   #88
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without trying to upset die hard loyalists on this forum...

at the end of the day the car you might be looking for is next year's mustang with the 5.0 coyote engine...i don't know how much weight it will add to the gt but it's speculated to come in around 400 horsepower

all i know is that i love my SS and couldn't have asked for more in my first brand new car

that's my 2 cents
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Old 09-18-2009, 12:54 PM   #89
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a supercharger isn't going to lower the weight or help me achieve better handling.

Suspension work will get you there but you keep seeming to ignore that point.......
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Old 09-18-2009, 12:58 PM   #90
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Disclaimer is this:

I do not intend to offend or harrang you in any way.

Now, though...I would like you to answer a few questions for me.

#1. Have you driven the car, yet?
#2. What do you mean by functional?
and #3....is not a question;

I challenge you to find a new sports car on the PLANET...that has the following:

IRS
400+hp
4 seats
and DOESN'T weigh somewhere between 3700-4200lbs.

I think you'll find that you cannot. For the price range? The Camaro actually comes out on the lighter-side of the spectrum. If you can beat that challenge, then you can call it a pig and fat all you like, otherwise, it is an inaccurate statement to make.

Dragoneye......


Your wisdom far exceeds your age in real years. I'm always amazed at your reasoning.

God Bless you.
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Old 09-18-2009, 01:03 PM   #91
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[SIZE="5"]...
Someone asked, "What sort of power/weight ratio are you looking to achieve?" I'd like to whittle it down to around 7.8 pounds for every horse. I'm sure I'm going to get more than a few "get a supercharger" responses, and while I can do that, a supercharger isn't going to lower the weight or help me achieve better handling.
What people keep trying to tell you is that weight reduction is not the way to improve handling or acceleration on this car. There's simply not that much fat to trim. If you want better handling and acceleration, you need to look at upgrading your suspension and your horsepower.
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Old 09-18-2009, 01:09 PM   #92
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What people keep trying to tell you is that weight reduction is not the way to improve handling or acceleration on this car. There's simply not that much fat to trim. If you want better handling and acceleration, you need to look at upgrading your suspension and your horsepower.
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Old 09-18-2009, 01:10 PM   #93
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I challenge you to find a new sports car on the PLANET...that has the following:

IRS
400+hp
4 seats
and DOESN'T weigh somewhere between 3700-4200lbs.

I think you'll find that you cannot. For the price range? The Camaro actually comes out on the lighter-side of the spectrum. If you can beat that challenge, then you can call it a pig and fat all you like, otherwise, it is an inaccurate statement to make.
I missed this one earlier.....

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Old 09-18-2009, 01:13 PM   #94
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This car is a lil on the heavy side, but it handles well for what it is.
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Old 09-18-2009, 01:20 PM   #95
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In the OP's defense, I can't believe how quickly some of you get offended by the slightest comment. It's like you've somehow directly linked your personal ego's to your car. The OP doesn't appear to be a ricer owner by his avatar message. His concern is legit and others have brought it up- they just didn't use the word "pig" so no one cried.
And in the defense of the people who were offended, we're not obligated to help trolls make a silk purse out of a pigs ear. If a guy calls a car a pig, common sense would tell you he doesn't like it and should buy something else. Which is exactly what most of the posters suggested.

Now, if he's flexible on the weight, someone can probably help him.
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Old 09-18-2009, 01:24 PM   #96
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Someone said something along the lines of "I want it to weigh less and get better fuel economy" So do we. It's that CAFE thing.

How to reduce weight......

well........we could use thinner sheetmetal - but then you get the 'oil-can' effect each time you wash or polish it -- so we didn't.


We could use lots of Titanium as we do with a Corvette -- but that raises the price -- so we didn't.


We could get rid of a lot of sound dampening........but that makes for a noisy interior (kinda like the Z06) -- so we didn't.


We could have made the seats lighter and smaller -- but that would make them more uncomfortable on longer trips and it would cost more (in some cases) -- so we didn't.

There are any number of things we could do...........


...............but let's now look at reality, shall we?

If we want this Camaro to succeed - it has to excel in a lot of areas -- refinement (while not losing its heritage of overall performance -- quietness at 70mph -- interiors that allow you to drive it from coast to coast without feeling like you did -- a solid feel to the body and sheetmetal -- absence of 'flutter' at speed -- IRS -- the list is quite lengthy.

RatedZ -- you may not feel that the above is important -- and that is certainly your perogative. However, those looking for reducing weight are in the very small minority......the majority of owners want a Camaro that's more refined. (go read any major Camaro site from 1996-2002 -- and you'll see what I mean.

So -- yes, you could take out weight - but I won't even start to guess what should be removed --

I'd suggest Pedders -- they have a selection of suspension pieces that I believe would take care of the 'feeling' that you get from the Camaro.

One last thing: As you know: we never rest. Remember when the C5 was the 'end-all?' - and then there was the Z06 - and then there was the C6 -- and then there was the C6-Z06 -- and then there was the ZR1.......

.........we are far from finished.................
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Old 09-18-2009, 01:36 PM   #97
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Oink Oink

I've had mine (2SS/RS LS3) for a couple of months now and it handles decently for a stock car. You can feel its wieghtyness when you're throwing it around the back roads but isn't it really intended to be a muscle car? I'd be willing to bet you could install some moderately priced suspension mods and balance out the that heavy feel. I wouldn't want to go overboard with tightning it up because then you end up with a very uncomfortable ride. Personally I like the feel because it doesn't feel like its going to come apart when stretching it out.

I agree some tend to get a little harsh however the OP was a little harsh in his opening salvo so I guess you should expect it. Call it what it is, a heavy car, and then ask for thoughts and the responses would have been reduced to positive input... JMHO
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Old 09-18-2009, 01:39 PM   #98
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.........we are far from finished.................

Sooooo whats in store for the Camaro?
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Old 09-18-2009, 01:49 PM   #99
Milk 1027
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrIcky View Post
In the OP's defense, I can't believe how quickly some of you get offended by the slightest comment. It's like you've somehow directly linked your personal ego's to your car. The OP doesn't appear to be a ricer owner by his avatar message. His concern is legit and others have brought it up- they just didn't use the word "pig" so no one cried.

Also there's a lot of confusion on the difference between "grip" and "handling".

But to the OP, 500lbs is alot- you would struggle to hit that. I'd just do the wheels and tires and the mufflers (because I'd do those anyway).
Thank you.
As much as I don't agree with the OP, there is absolutely no reason to attack anyone.

You have all failed to listen to my multiple warnings. Any more disputes and "pissing matches" coming from this thread will be deleted and infracted accordingly.

This your final warning.
I'm tired of people on this forum not being able to have an argument or even disagree respectively.

No more of this please.
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Old 09-18-2009, 02:11 PM   #100
Partick

 
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Take it easy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Milk 1027 View Post
Thank you.
As much as I don't agree with the OP, there is absolutely no reason to attack anyone.

You have all failed to listen to my multiple warnings. Any more disputes and "pissing matches" coming from this thread will be deleted and infracted accordingly.

This your final warning.
I'm tired of people on this forum not being able to have an argument or even disagree respectively.

No more of this please.
Milk, you're going curdle with that tone... lighten up! I'm not one of the bashers but seriously who died and left you in charge of manners? People are entitled to express their opinions and just because you don't see them as constructive doesn't give you the right to scold and threaten them. The op went there with his coice of words so it shouldn't be a surprise some are going to respond accordingly.
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