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Old 09-22-2009, 09:04 AM   #18
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Where are the other guys???? Do they think they are too good to have their CAI tested by an outside source? I was looking at several different systems and decided to go with Andy's at ADM Performance. Andy is very sure of his product and I think it is in the top 2 out of 10 or so that are out there in the looks department.
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Old 09-22-2009, 09:23 AM   #19
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What will the AFR be, As not all units work at the same AFR #, And you can not go from OEM to CAI and not drive the car as much as 150 MI to go back to the OEM AFR, As this computer takes a long time to learn, and if you remove the battery cable you still need to drive the car at list 100 mi to get the ecm back to where it was before you put the last CAI on the car.

And how do you know if the units are going to give you timing or pull the timing on the deferent units so there are so many ways to do this that it dos not work, If you billd a unit to lean out the AFM then you will get a high HP # but you will blow up the ls3 if the ECM puts timing in.

more to came as i have to go.
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Old 09-22-2009, 09:29 AM   #20
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Old 09-22-2009, 09:50 AM   #21
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What will the AFR be, As not all units work at the same AFR #, And you can not go from OEM to CAI and not drive the car as much as 150 MI to go back to the OEM AFR, As this computer takes a long time to learn, and if you remove the battery cable you still need to drive the car at list 100 mi to get the ecm back to where it was before you put the last CAI on the car.

And how do you know if the units are going to give you timing or pull the timing on the deferent units so there are so many ways to do this that it dos not work, If you billd a unit to lean out the AFM then you will get a high HP # but you will blow up the ls3 if the ECM puts timing in.

more to came as i have to go.
I think this is actually going to be a valid test on the basis of simplicity. It will show "If I bolt this thing in what will it do immediately". This is the worst case scenario of what it will do, as you pointed out the ECM is going to make adjustments over time which would improve the results.

So whatever units are tested, the results will show the immediate gains relative to one another, and for certain units the results may improve over time but at least people will know what the minimum improvement will be.
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Old 09-22-2009, 09:55 AM   #22
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Old 09-22-2009, 10:06 AM   #23
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I think this is actually going to be a valid test on the basis of simplicity. It will show "If I bolt this thing in what will it do immediately". This is the worst case scenario of what it will do, as you pointed out the ECM is going to make adjustments over time which would improve the results.

So whatever units are tested, the results will show the immediate gains relative to one another, and for certain units the results may improve over time but at least people will know what the minimum improvement will be.
I don't care what happens immediately. I care about how it will perform in the long run. I want to see how performance changes after the ECU has adjusted over time. One unit may perform better than another 5 minutes into testing, but after 100 miles you may have a completely different story. I don't know about you, but I prefer the latter.

Ted, thanks for doing this. I hope most of the vendors participate. Being as detailed as you are, I'm sure you'll be documenting the entire testing process and trying your best to keep all conditions the same for all tests.
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Old 09-22-2009, 10:06 AM   #24
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OK, we Have, Revolution and ADM on the Way who else is going to step up to the plate?

To answer some of the questions here is a link to my Dyno cell Designed and built by myself with some guidance from Superflow back in 02, the pictures are old and paint and upgrades are constant.

http://www.jannettyracing.com/dynotuningct.shtml

I have 38,000 Cubic Feet per Minute, or 90 tons of air per minute coming in to the dyno room to similate on road driving.

That is a 4 foot diameter pipe with a tapered 3 ft diameter nozzel, air exits the pipe at 60 mph.

My Superflow dyno is a fully loaded system that has 48 inputs for sensors of my choice, temps, pressures, electrical, weather station, tach, speedo, you name it.

I am excited to see who is who in cold air kits.


Hey Ted, will you be testing both the L99 And the LS3?
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Old 09-22-2009, 10:12 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Croathlete View Post
I don't care what happens immediately. I care about how it will perform in the long run. I want to see how performance changes after the ECU has adjusted over time. One unit may perform better than another 5 minutes into testing, but after 100 miles you may have a completely different story. I don't know about you, but I prefer the latter.

Ted, thanks for doing this. I hope most of the vendors participate. Being as detailed as you are, I'm sure you'll be documenting the entire testing process and trying your best to keep all conditions the same for all tests.
Then put away your pitchforks! He's offering a testing service that no other place is willing to do. It's a fair comparison.

Or... would you prefer he drives over 1,000 miles (100+ for each CAI)?

Sometimes the silliness of this board gets to me.
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Old 09-22-2009, 10:16 AM   #26
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Hey Ted, will you be testing both the L99 And the LS3?
"Good question!", said the L99 owner.
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Old 09-22-2009, 10:22 AM   #27
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Then put away your pitchforks! He's offering a testing service that no other place is willing to do. It's a fair comparison.

Or... would you prefer he drives over 1,000 miles (100+ for each CAI)?

Sometimes the silliness of this board gets to me.
I'm going to ignore your last line. You obviously didn't understand what I said.

I'm not saying this test is useless or that I don't appreciate him doing this. I'm simply pointing out that for a true comparison, the ECU needs to be "broken in". I can't say I know how long this process takes. Ten miles or 100 miles, who knows?

Yes, you will see what the gains are right off the bat, but it will not be representative of what owners will see over the life of their unit. Still, this will be a good test to weed out the CAI's that really don't do anything but look good.
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Old 09-22-2009, 10:22 AM   #28
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Then put away your pitchforks! He's offering a testing service that no other place is willing to do. It's a fair comparison.
Others have offered...
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Originally Posted by Late Model Racecraft View Post
We did two back to back pulls to get accurate results. As for the hood being closed, we have done dyno testing that proved a difference of less than 2hp, which is standing still on the dyno. If you have a CAI system on your car already and would like to bring it to our shop, I will make two back to back pulls with the system currently on your car and then install our CAI system and to prove ours is the best on the market today.
Second CAI on the dyno won the test here without driving it... I'm sure the similar location of both MAFs may have helped.

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36533

I'd get rid of the stock box and put some miles on with the first CAI... then use those settings since they will no doubt be closer across the board than stock would be. JMHO...
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Old 09-22-2009, 10:26 AM   #29
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I'm going to ignore your last line. You obviously didn't understand what I said.

I'm not saying this test is useless or that I don't appreciate him doing this. I'm simply pointing out that for a true comparison, the ECU needs to be "broken in". I can't say I know how long this process takes. Ten miles or 100 miles, who knows?

Yes, you will see what the gains are right off the bat, but it will not be representative of what owners will see over the life of their unit. Still, this will be a good test to weed out the CAI's that really don't do anything but look good.
Well, that line wasn't just for you... it's for all the other people who were critisizing 2SSRS and others for inadquate testing. It's rather easy for people to sit behind a computer screen and scrutinize the testing of products.

We have a lot of emerging products with a relatively new system to place them on. I'm sure as time progresses, extensive testing will be done on all of them, but this may be a great initial "first-look" at them.
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Old 09-22-2009, 10:52 AM   #30
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I don't care what happens immediately. I care about how it will perform in the long run. I want to see how performance changes after the ECU has adjusted over time. One unit may perform better than another 5 minutes into testing, but after 100 miles you may have a completely different story. I don't know about you, but I prefer the latter.

Ted, thanks for doing this. I hope most of the vendors participate. Being as detailed as you are, I'm sure you'll be documenting the entire testing process and trying your best to keep all conditions the same for all tests.
The "immediate" results are an indicator of how effective a unit is/is going to be. I would hope you'd be able to look at the various CAI's and understand which ones will likely see improving results over time based on what type it is. These tests will also show what's involved in installing each one, how they look once installed, how loud they are, and what their effectiveness is right out of the box. Maybe you don't care about that but I'm sure others (myself included) do.

I'm able to figure out which unit, like the Vararam, or Andy's which has the MAF inside the CAI box, MIGHT see improving results over time as the ECM adjusts versus a unit that's just a tube with a K&N filter stuck on the end. The starting point gives me an idea of how effective these units are immediately and what kind of gains might eventually be there based on the starting point. For example if a unit starts out with a gain of 15 rwhp, then I know over time as the ECM "learns" it's going to go up from there. If a different unit starts out at 10 rwhp, even if it gains 50% from ECM learning it I'd rather start with the other one that begins where this one might end up.

Heat soak is an issue. What are the temps inside the unit while sitting at a stop during stop and go traffic? What are the temps inside when you shut the engine off, then come back and start it back up? These are the kinds of things this test would reveal and IMHO are valuable.

I really don't see under these circumstances any practical way to run the long term tests you mentioned but I don't think that absence will in any way invalidate the results that they come up with.
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Old 09-22-2009, 11:03 AM   #31
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The "immediate" results are an indicator of how effective a unit is/is going to be. I would hope you'd be able to look at the various CAI's and understand which ones will likely see improving results over time based on what type it is. These tests will also show what's involved in installing each one, how they look once installed, how loud they are, and what their effectiveness is right out of the box. Maybe you don't care about that but I'm sure others (myself included) do.

I'm able to figure out which unit, like the Vararam, or Andy's which has the MAF inside the CAI box, MIGHT see improving results over time as the ECM adjusts versus a unit that's just a tube with a K&N filter stuck on the end. The starting point gives me an idea of how effective these units are immediately and what kind of gains might eventually be there based on the starting point. For example if a unit starts out with a gain of 15 rwhp, then I know over time as the ECM "learns" it's going to go up from there. If a different unit starts out at 10 rwhp, even if it gains 50% from ECM learning it I'd rather start with the other one that begins where this one might end up.

Heat soak is an issue. What are the temps inside the unit while sitting at a stop during stop and go traffic? What are the temps inside when you shut the engine off, then come back and start it back up? These are the kinds of things this test would reveal and IMHO are valuable.

I really don't see under these circumstances any practical way to run the long term tests you mentioned but I don't think that absence will in any way invalidate the results that they come up with.
I agree with pretty much everything you said. There is no practical way for him to test each CAI for long periods of time, especially since he isn't being compensated for his time. My only point is, and you said it as well, we will have to guess how much performance will improve from initial numbers. A lot of people might see initial HP and TQ numbers and take that as the end all be all.

Like you said, I think other data such as intake temps during various different environments will give a good idea of long performance increases.
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Old 09-22-2009, 11:09 AM   #32
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Hay guy don't start a war, I called JANNETTYRACING and i can say he is a good man and a fare man, I hope that Patrick can come on hear to let you know what i know, I know in time he will.
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Old 09-22-2009, 11:12 AM   #33
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Guys I don't want this to get out of hand so lets Please stick to the facts only.

I will be data logging the effects of the cold air kits on the Maf Transfer function and the fuel trims for each system.

I will also Clear the computers Memory, before each kit, then do a drive cycle to let the computer adjust then make as many pulls as necessary to stablize the results.

A/F will be monitored for each system.

The only thing that affects A/F is the Maf Transfer Function, If the Maf transfer function is altered severely it throws off all the fueling and the timing calculations, I already know what to expect and will be watching this closely.

I was down this road 15 years ago with the LT1s and aftermarket mafs and cold air kits.

You will have to trust my experience in collecting solid data.
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Old 09-22-2009, 11:20 AM   #34
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Guys I don't want this to get out of hand so lets Please stick to the facts only.

I will be data logging the effects of the cold air kits on the Maf Transfer function and the fuel trims for each system.

I will also Clear the computers Memory, before each kit, then do a drive cycle to let the computer adjust then make as many pulls as necessary to stablize the results.

A/F will be monitored for each system.

The only thing that affects A/F is the Maf Transfer Function, If the Maf transfer function is altered severely it throws off all the fueling and the timing calculations, I already know what to expect and will be watching this closely.

I was down this road 15 years ago with the LT1s and aftermarket mafs and cold air kits.

You will have to trust my experience in collecting solid data.
That sounds good to me!
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