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Old 09-29-2009, 05:39 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by 2010-1SS-IBM View Post
I have no theories about the Z28 yet, except regarding the piece I quote above. I think if GM goes that high in price it will be a disaster. Not saying they won't do it, just that it won't sell in high enough volumes to justify the line.

I think if the base model goes above high-30's to low-40's, they will be in trouble. Performance in the $30-$35k range is an empty field. Performance in the $50k+ range is packed, in some cases by other GM cars.
I'm not following you. What I'm saying based off Camaro's website that the 2SS starts at $34K, the Z/28 maybe $10k-$15K on top of that like $44K-$50K. I don't think we'll see a performance car with 500+hp under $40K.
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Old 09-29-2009, 05:47 PM   #16
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I think if the base model goes above high-30's to low-40's, they will be in trouble. Performance in the $30-$35k range is an empty field. Performance in the $50k+ range is packed, in some cases by other GM cars.
Huh?
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Old 09-29-2009, 08:22 PM   #17
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I'm not following you. What I'm saying based off Camaro's website that the 2SS starts at $34K, the Z/28 maybe $10k-$15K on top of that like $44K-$50K. I don't think we'll see a performance car with 500+hp under $40K.
I understand that, but there's nothing special about a performance car at that price. Pricing it like that will only net the die-hard Camaro enthusiasts who also have money to spend, which is a very small part of the buying public.

The Corvette starts at $48k (same price range), Corvette convertible $53k (~$5k more) the GT500 $46k (same price range), the GT500 Convertible $51k (same price range). And even though it's not the same kind of performance, the 370Z Nismo would be a comparative bargain at $39k ($5k-$10k less). The Cadillac CTS-V would only be $9k-$14k more, the BMW M3 coupe would be between $8k and $14k more, the Mercedes C63 AMG would be between $7k and $13k more.

They'd be crazy to sell a Z28 in that range, it would be slaughtered.
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Old 09-29-2009, 08:53 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by 2010-1SS-IBM View Post
I understand that, but there's nothing special about a performance car at that price. Pricing it like that will only net the die-hard Camaro enthusiasts who also have money to spend, which is a very small part of the buying public.

The Corvette starts at $48k (same price range), Corvette convertible $53k (~$5k more) the GT500 $46k (same price range), the GT500 Convertible $51k (same price range). And even though it's not the same kind of performance, the 370Z Nismo would be a comparative bargain at $39k ($5k-$10k less). The Cadillac CTS-V would only be $9k-$14k more, the BMW M3 coupe would be between $8k and $14k more, the Mercedes C63 AMG would be between $7k and $13k more.

They'd be crazy to sell a Z28 in that range, it would be slaughtered.
You're not making very much sense. :(
For one, they don't intend to sell this model in volume. 2-5k...maybe. If they did, they wouldn't have waited to make it. So, perhaps you might rethink the target buyer for the Z?

The Corvette is a totally different car, marketed to an entirely different crowd. It is not competition, so strike it off the list.

Convertibles? huh?

The Nismo Nissan is different as well. The SS already outperforms it...so I don't understand how you'd consider it a bargain compared to a Z28?

The Cadillac...is again, different -- a 4-door, LUXURY sedan...not competition for the Z, and since you're taking issue with a 15k increase over a stock SS...how can you quote 9-14k more for a V as "competiton" Same for the last two you listed....

That leaves the GT500...anddd....the GT500. The performance of which costs roughly $45 grand. You can't get there for less. Honestly, unless they don't offer similar performance Z...I don't understand why it wouldn't (and shouldn't) cost in that same range.
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Old 09-29-2009, 09:13 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by 2010-1SS-IBM View Post
I understand that, but there's nothing special about a performance car at that price. Pricing it like that will only net the die-hard Camaro enthusiasts who also have money to spend, which is a very small part of the buying public.

The Corvette starts at $48k (same price range), Corvette convertible $53k (~$5k more) the GT500 $46k (same price range), the GT500 Convertible $51k (same price range). And even though it's not the same kind of performance, the 370Z Nismo would be a comparative bargain at $39k ($5k-$10k less). The Cadillac CTS-V would only be $9k-$14k more, the BMW M3 coupe would be between $8k and $14k more, the Mercedes C63 AMG would be between $7k and $13k more.

They'd be crazy to sell a Z28 in that range, it would be slaughtered.
I'm sorry man but I'm still not following you. Many people have purchased the GT500 because it is the cheapest 500hp sports car you can buy. The other cars you have listed is not in the same league as the Camaro. The only car that it can compete with is the GT500. Ohh then you have the 425HP Dodge Challanger SRT8 priced at $43000(I know a guy that drove off the lot $50k). If your expecting the Z/28 to be priced under $40k not a chance.
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You're not making very much sense. :(
For one, they don't intend to sell this model in volume. 2-5k...maybe. If they did, they wouldn't have waited to make it. So, perhaps you might rethink the target buyer for the Z?

The Corvette is a totally different car, marketed to an entirely different crowd. It is not competition, so strike it off the list.

Convertibles? huh?

The Nismo Nissan is different as well. The SS already outperforms it...so I don't understand how you'd consider it a bargain compared to a Z28?

The Cadillac...is again, different -- a 4-door, LUXURY sedan...not competition for the Z, and since you're taking issue with a 15k increase over a stock SS...how can you quote 9-14k more for a V as "competiton" Same for the last two you listed....

That leaves the GT500...anddd....the GT500. The performance of which costs roughly $45 grand. You can't get there for less. Honestly, unless they don't offer similar performance Z...I don't understand why it wouldn't (and shouldn't) cost in that same range.
I agree.
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Old 09-29-2009, 09:49 PM   #20
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You're not making very much sense. :(
For one, they don't intend to sell this model in volume. 2-5k...maybe. If they did, they wouldn't have waited to make it. So, perhaps you might rethink the target buyer for the Z?
You don't have to worry, at that price they definately won't sell the model in volume regardless of whether they plan it that way or not.

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The Corvette is a totally different car, marketed to an entirely different crowd. It is not competition, so strike it off the list.

Convertibles? huh?

The Nismo Nissan is different as well. The SS already outperforms it...so I don't understand how you'd consider it a bargain compared to a Z28?

The Cadillac...is again, different -- a 4-door, LUXURY sedan...not competition for the Z, and since you're taking issue with a 15k increase over a stock SS...how can you quote 9-14k more for a V as "competiton" Same for the last two you listed....

That leaves the GT500...anddd....the GT500. The performance of which costs roughly $45 grand. You can't get there for less. Honestly, unless they don't offer similar performance Z...I don't understand why it wouldn't (and shouldn't) cost in that same range.
If you think people spend ~$50k without looking at every car out there, you are insane.
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Old 09-29-2009, 09:51 PM   #21
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I'm sorry man but I'm still not following you. Many people have purchased the GT500 because it is the cheapest 500hp sports car you can buy. The other cars you have listed is not in the same league as the Camaro. The only car that it can compete with is the GT500. Ohh then you have the 425HP Dodge Challanger SRT8 priced at $43000(I know a guy that drove off the lot $50k). If your expecting the Z/28 to be priced under $40k not a chance.
And if your pricing turns out to be correct, the GT500 will still be the cheapest 500hp+ sports car you can buy. Get it?
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Old 09-29-2009, 09:54 PM   #22
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You don't have to worry, at that price they definately won't sell the model in volume regardless of whether they plan it that way or not.
I'm not worrying...and that's the point I attempted to make...selling in volume is not a priority for this car. So why kill themselves to try and price it like it is?

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If you think people spend ~$50k without looking at every car out there, you are insane.
Well...it's a good thing I'm not in a nut-hospital then, cause they'd kick me out.

I KNOW people look at every car in the price-range...but half of the cars you listed were OUT of the price-range...and no car (besides the GT500) offers the same combination of features the Z28 does. So while a consumer may look at a bunch of similarly-priced cars just to see what's out there...they may only be in the market for a certain type. (ie. perhaps they want back seats...well, that strikes the Corvette and 370z right off the get-go)
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Old 09-29-2009, 10:10 PM   #23
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Dude I totally heard a theory that they're going to go with a LIO470 instead of the LSA in the Z/28. Factory Garmin too! When will it end..?
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Old 09-29-2009, 10:24 PM   #24
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And if your pricing turns out to be correct, the GT500 will still be the cheapest 500hp+ sports car you can buy. Get it?
Huh? Ford site says starting MSRP $46325.
http://www.fordvehicles.com/cars/mustang/models/
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Old 09-29-2009, 10:26 PM   #25
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I'm not worrying...and that's the point I attempted to make...selling in volume is not a priority for this car. So why kill themselves to try and price it like it is?
I know you didn't pick this up in my first post, but I don't believe you when you say GM is planning a limited production run of the Z28. It doesn't make sense, economically. They'd lose money, and there's no need to pump up recognition of Camaro's as they already have a waiting list 6 months long. Plus the convertible would do a better job of that than a Z28 since they can make money off convertibles.

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I KNOW people look at every car in the price-range...but half of the cars you listed were OUT of the price-range...and no car (besides the GT500) offers the same combination of features the Z28 does. So while a consumer may look at a bunch of similarly-priced cars just to see what's out there...they may only be in the market for a certain type. (ie. perhaps they want back seats...well, that strikes the Corvette and 370z right off the get-go)
No, they are not out of the price range. If you can swing $50k for a muscle car, you can swing $60k for a wider variety of cars. Put it this way, a $50k Z28 fully financed would be ~$1000/month. The CTS-V would be ~$1,160/month and has the exact same engine and many more features. Everybody would consider that.

Add on top of that, they are both GM cars. How does GM win if a prospective CTS-V buyer purchased a Camaro instead? They lose $8k-$12k in revenue. And that's the good version. The bad version is the buyer figures out he can have a C63 AMG instead of either of those, and GM doesn't get a sale at all. Now GM's new Camaro has people thinking about muscle, but it's price has them thinking about luxury too. Bad news for GM.

Put it this way, a lot of people will buy muscle cars for $35k. Go much beyond that though and they not only expect more, whatever they expect is readily available from other car manufacturers as well as GM.
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Old 09-29-2009, 10:40 PM   #26
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Huh? Ford site says starting MSRP $46325.
Really? You don't get that $46k is less than $50k? Or that it's less than the average between $44k and $50k? Or that even the GT500 with the convertible option is still within your projected price range for a Z28?

Let's just go back to the beginning, with the easy comparison. Let's say the Z28 and the GT500 are identically priced. What do you think the Z28 will have that the GT500 won't? What would prompt someone to buy a Z28?
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Old 09-29-2009, 10:46 PM   #27
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You're skewing a lot of things in your favor for the sake of debate...which is fine, I guess...but, man is it a little irritating.

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I know you didn't pick this up in my first post, but I don't believe you when you say GM is planning a limited production run of the Z28. It doesn't make sense, economically. They'd lose money, and there's no need to pump up recognition of Camaro's as they already have a waiting list 6 months long. Plus the convertible would do a better job of that than a Z28 since they can make money off convertibles.
Please explain how they'd lose money? They have the V6 and SS Camaro, which are to make up the vast majority of their sales. They don't NEED the Z28 -- which is the main reason they shelved it during the summer turmoil. It's a frivolous addition to the lineup. You don't have to believe me...that's the beauty of free-will...but it WILL be a low-volume model. So take it or leave it, I guess...

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No, they are not out of the price range. If you can swing $50k for a muscle car, you can swing $60k for a wider variety of cars. Put it this way, a $50k Z28 fully financed would be ~$1000/month. The CTS-V would be ~$1,160/month and has the exact same engine and many more features. Everybody would consider that.
Then.....At $50k, a Z28 would be in the same price-range as an SS by your logic...which means 60% of current Camaro buyers would consider that. Not the small, undetectable minority you were talking about in your previous post...so why are we having this debate?

And did you know that a large portion of Corvette-buyers are streching their dollar's worth to afford a base-version of that car? They don't have an extra 10 grand to spend...that's not chump-change. hmmm....
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Add on top of that, they are both GM cars. How does GM win if a prospective CTS-V buyer purchased a Camaro instead? They lose $8k-$12k in revenue. And that's the good version. The bad version is the buyer figures out he can have a C63 AMG instead of either of those, and GM doesn't get a sale at all. Now GM's new Camaro has people thinking about muscle, but it's price has them thinking about luxury too. Bad news for GM.
Then I suppose it's a ruddy miracle that Ford is selling GT500s....the outline you give about is simply the nature of the Industry, my friend.

If price was a buyers only consideration, and luxury trumps performance as you imply, then I'm positive we all would not be buying and driving Camaros...we could all be buying CTSs instead. But...that isn't happening. A car this niche will attract a VERY closed-minded buyer. A buyer who knows exactly what he/she wants to buy...and only needs a company to offer it for him to purchase. It is very unlikely that these people will search so far out the segment for a car.

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Put it this way, a lot of people will buy muscle cars for $35k. Go much beyond that though and they not only expect more, whatever they expect is readily available from other car manufacturers as well as GM.
Really? Can you show me that study? I just don't agree with this...so fiercely, in fact...that I'm going to defend a Ford (which the Z28 should conceiveably be better than)...what is the world coming to?

Here goes: name me another car that can do what the GT500 does for $46,000 MSRP +/- $2000. It doesn't have to be better...just name another 2+2 coupe that can perform as well for that price. The M3 can, but that thing is well over $10,000 more (closing on $15,000 more).
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Old 09-29-2009, 10:49 PM   #28
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I know you didn't pick this up in my first post, but I don't believe you when you say GM is planning a limited production run of the Z28. It doesn't make sense, economically. They'd lose money, and there's no need to pump up recognition of Camaro's as they already have a waiting list 6 months long. Plus the convertible would do a better job of that than a Z28 since they can make money off convertibles.

No, they are not out of the price range. If you can swing $50k for a muscle car, you can swing $60k for a wider variety of cars. Put it this way, a $50k Z28 fully financed would be ~$1000/month. The CTS-V would be ~$1,160/month and has the exact same engine and many more features. Everybody would consider that.

Add on top of that, they are both GM cars. How does GM win if a prospective CTS-V buyer purchased a Camaro instead? They lose $8k-$12k in revenue. And that's the good version. The bad version is the buyer figures out he can have a C63 AMG instead of either of those, and GM doesn't get a sale at all. Now GM's new Camaro has people thinking about muscle, but it's price has them thinking about luxury too. Bad news for GM.

Put it this way, a lot of people will buy muscle cars for $35k. Go much beyond that though and they not only expect more, whatever they expect is readily available from other car manufacturers as well as GM.
I don't, personally, think a person who has the wherewithall to spend $60K on a musclecar is going to buy a Camaro, Challenger, or Mustang without knowing exaclty what they want. These cars are not going to be on the same field as any Merc or BMW in that price range except possibly handling, and straighline speed. Materials, ergonomics, electronic goodies and well, the image of what muscle cars were are probably likely to scary away any silverspooned buyer away from Camaro and even Corvette. These, I'm sure, are not the target for Z28 buys, nor Chally' and GT500s.

JMHO.
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