LS3 vs 5.0 yote? motor only comparison.

[GossipSquirrelJelena]

Originally Posted by bayarea408

If you put a coyote motor in a 5th gen and raced it against a ls3 5th gen given equal drivers tires etc...

The ls3 will win


Same scenario in a coyote stang. Bastardize a coyote and put a ls3 in it versus a stock coyote. The ls3 swapped coyote will win.

Just curious why you think that? They make ruffly the same power and torque. The coyote has a slight advantage in power and torque. 435hp to 426. There is only a 10 or 20 pound difference in weight between one motor and the next.

[Firefighter]

Originally Posted by GossipSquirrelJelena

Just curious why you think that? They make ruffly the same power and torque. The coyote has a slight advantage in power and torque. 435hp to 426. There is only a 10 or 20 pound difference in weight between one motor and the next.

While I don't think it's a cut and dry race either way.

Coyote in a GT 435HP/400TQ
LS3 in a SS 426HP/420TQ in a GS Vette w/NPP (best numbers) 436HP/428TQ...

I would bet the numbers in the Camaro SS w/NPP would be similar to the GS if they had rated it.

So there's that...

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[87GNX]

Originally Posted by MagnumForceGB

The bullshit just got extremely deep in this thread. So glad I actually go to the track and truely race instead of bench racing.

Fanboys for ya......

[GossipSquirrelJelena]

Originally Posted by Firefighter

Coyote in a GT 435HP/400TQ
LS3 in a SS 426HP/420TQ in a GS Vette w/NPP (best numbers) 436HP/428TQ...

I would bet the numbers in the Camaro SS w/NPP would be similar to the GS if they had rated it.

So there's that...

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ok..... I still don't see enough of a difference between the two engines to make the bold claim that the LS3 would be the hands down winner if all else were equal. Maybe I'm missing something?

[Firefighter]

Originally Posted by GossipSquirrelJelena

ok..... I still don't see enough of a difference between the two engines to make the bold claim that the LS3 would be the hands down winner if all else were equal. Maybe I'm missing something?

I forgot to make the statement that I've since added that I don't think it's a cut and dry win either way.

Almost 30TQ starting earlier in the power band is nothing to sneeze at though...

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[GossipSquirrelJelena]

Originally Posted by Firefighter

I forgot to make the statement that I've since added that I don't think it's a cut and dry win either way.

Almost 30TQ starting earlier in the power band is nothing to sneeze at though...

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Agreed more torque down low vs the higher rpm advantage the coyote has up top makes for an interesting debate.

[Firefighter]

Originally Posted by GossipSquirrelJelena

Agreed more torque down low vs the higher rpm advantage the coyote has up top makes for an interesting debate.

What's going to be interesting is the comparison of the Coyote vs. LT1. 2016 GT vs 2016 SS... It's going to be GT 435/400 vs SS 450/450. The SS will finally be lighter too... What's the story line going to be then for the Ford guys?

My car is out of this conversation because I'm already @ approx 500/490 (flywheel) with verified 435/425 wheels... So the way I figure the stock cars need to catch up with me... LoL Heads/Cam/intake on the way...

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[GossipSquirrelJelena]

Originally Posted by Firefighter

What's going to be interesting is the comparison of the Coyote vs. LT1. 2016 GT vs 2016 SS... It's going to be GT 435/400 vs SS 450/450. The SS will finally be lighter too... What's the story line going to be then for the Ford guys?

My car is out of this conversation because I'm already @ approx 500/490 (flywheel) with verified 435/425 wheels... So the way I figure the stock cars need to catch up with me... LoL Heads/Cam/intake on the way...

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My bet is ford will change the tuning perameters to match or exceed Chevy numbers. Chevy had the bigger numbers in 2014. Ford has the better numbers in 2015. Looks like Chevy has bragging rights next year. Well Dodge has had bragging right all along.

[Firefighter]

Originally Posted by GossipSquirrelJelena

My bet is ford will change the tuning perameters to match or exceed Chevy numbers. Chevy had the bigger numbers in 2014. Ford has the better numbers in 2015. Looks like Chevy has bragging rights next year. Well Dodge has had bragging right all along.

Possibly, Dodge needs all that power because they are freaking boats... lol

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[VADER SS L99]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

My take - it'd be a wash, given comparable development.


For one thing, a larger displacement engine is better suited to displacement-on-demand. This appears to be the path that Chevy/GM is following, so it makes all the sense in the world for their V8 engines to end up closer to 6 liters than 5.


Zero merit because your engine preference drew the short straw? I actually like the Chevy engines and see no place for that kind of argument against the efficiency of power production. "Just keep make it bigger until it's more powerful than the other guy's motor" doesn't work for the OE's any more.

To date, normalizing the amount of power on a displacement basis is the ONLY REASONABLE WAY to compare two powerplants of significantly different displacement. This isn't the usual 2-liter Honda vs pushrod V8 comparison where the total amounts of power are lots different, so let's stop trying to make it sound like it is.

But given that you're unwilling to work with power per liter, let's try to find something closer to the 5.0 TI-VCT in the LS engine series and make some direct comparisons, m'kay?

I'll use the 5.3, with specs below (it's actually a pretty damn nice engine). Note that the bore and stroke aren't all that different from the Coyote's 92.2 mm bore and 92.7 mm stroke. If anything at, the 5.3's larger bore should give it a breathing advantage by permitting either relatively larger valves or less shrouding. Your choice.


Compare that to only the 420 hp @ 6500 and 390 ft-lbs @ 4250 of the earlier version of the Coyote. It's down by 65 hp, 7 ft-lbs, and 750 rpm worth of powerband width. Significant enough if both engines were the same displacement, but the L83 is still the bigger displacement engine.


I know you don't want to hear about hp & torque per liter, but let's compare the above L83 with the LS3 to see how they stack up against each other, pushrod motor vs pushrod motor.
L83 . . . 355 / 5.3 = 67 hp/L . . . 383 / 5.3 = 72.3 ft-lb/L
LS3 . . . 426 / 6.2 = 68.7 hp/L . . . 420 / 6.2 = 67.7 ft-lb/L

They're actually pretty close on normalized HP/L (which doesn't say great things about the 6.2 needing 900 more rpm to get its small advantage there), and the 5.3 actually beats the 6.2 on specific torque (but still loses to the Coyote).


Norm

Its your take that if both engines had the same displacemnt, valves and valve timing tech that the power would be a wash. Well thanks for agreeing with the whole point that valve timing tech and 4 valves per cylinder add power. Now I don't want to hear another if the Coyote had the same displacement. It goes both ways.

Did you really just compare a gen V truck engine to a gen lV Corvette engine and Coyote? They couldn't be further apart from each other. You can't draw any accurate conclusions from doing that. In fact you just lost all credibility with me. Do you not understand that the 5.3 - 7.0 and the 6.2 in between are the same size externally and they all have different types of heads, cams, intake, compression, tuning, ect. Why limit the displacement and everything else if you don't have to?

Let's play the hypothetical game with you as well and pretend the pushrod 5.3 wasn't a truck engine but the one that comes in a Corvette/Camaro with factory performance cam, heads, intake manifold and compression. I fully agree that it wouldn't come close to Coyote power but you need to realize that if it had Ti-VCT and 32 valves that it would likely be more powerful than a Coyote.

All this BS and a LS3 makes more power, torque, weighs less, is physically smaller, and gets similar mpg vs the Coyote. Power per displacement means abso!utely NOTHING when a engine can do all those things as good or BETTER.

[VADER SS L99]

Originally Posted by GossipSquirrelJelena

ok..... I still don't see enough of a difference between the two engines to make the bold claim that the LS3 would be the hands down winner if all else were equal. Maybe I'm missing something?

So if weight and overall gearing were exactly the same you don't think the LS3 car would be faster? LOL

[GossipSquirrelJelena]

Originally Posted by VADER SS L99

So if weight and overall gearing were exactly the same you don't think the LS3 car would be faster? LOL

Please forgive me for not understanding your magical fan boy math but.... When two engines make EQUAL power and torque I don't understand how you assume one will be faster than the other??? What do you draw your assumptions on? The Mustang is faster stock! Or do you want to argue that fact also? If the Camaro lost 200 pounds in weight it would just level the playing field. Making things EQUAL! I get it. In your mind the LS3 is the greatest engine evaaa. But to the rest of us who don't have our blinders on we can see there are plenty of other fantastic engines from other brands out there. You'll have your day in the sun next year when the 6th gen comes out lighter and with more power. That'll be the difference between great than and EQUAL to.Have a nice day

[VADER SS L99]

Originally Posted by GossipSquirrelJelena

Please forgive me for not understanding your magical fan boy math but.... When two engines make EQUAL power and torque I don't understand how you assume one will be faster than the other??? What do you draw your assumptions on? The Mustang is faster stock! Or do you want to argue that fact also? If the Camaro lost 200 pounds in weight it would just level the playing field. Making things EQUAL! I get it. In your mind the LS3 is the greatest engine evaaa. But to the rest of us who don't have our blinders on we can see there are plenty of other fantastic engines from other brands out there. You'll have your day in the sun next year when the 6th gen comes out lighter and with more power. That'll be the difference between great than and EQUAL to.Have a nice day

They DO NOT MAKE EQUAL POWER. Not even close torque. The LS3 makes more on both accounts. You obviously didn't read much of this thread as I proved this long ago.

BTW I have owned 2 Mustangs and will probably own another. No way am I a blind fan boy. Facts are Facts however. The Mustang is faster stock but its not because it has a superior engine. Its mostly because there is a 300lb difference between 5th gen SS vs 5th gen GT.

[GossipSquirrelJelena]

Originally Posted by VADER SS L99

They DO NOT MAKE EQUAL POWER. Not even close torque. The LS3 makes more on both accounts. You obviously didn't read much of this thread as I proved this long ago.

BTW I have owned 2 Mustangs and will probably own another. No way am I a blind fan boy. Facts are Facts however. The Mustang is faster stock but its not because it has a superior engine. Its mostly because there.,. is a 300lb difference between 5th gen SS vs 5th gen GT.

Im not sure where your getting 300 pounds from. It's more like 200 pounds. You also want to quibble over 5hp or 10 pounds of torque. The mustang generally is a couple 10ths faster in a 1/4 mile race due to weight. 100 pounds of weight reduction is worth ruffly a tenth in the 1/4. So if the Camaro were to lose 200 pounds it would gain the 2/10ths it would need to catch the Mustang. Not surpass it. I still see things as equal so we'll have to agree to disagree.