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Old 06-25-2014, 08:52 AM   #1
2013 RaceRed 5.0
 
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vs. Old School Muscle

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Old 06-25-2014, 08:56 AM   #2
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Love old school but damn they were some boats!!
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Old 06-25-2014, 11:09 AM   #3
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Yes but considering most of them are 40 years old...
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Old 06-25-2014, 11:17 AM   #4
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The problem is the old muscle cars were rated gross power instead of net like newer engines so they produce less power in the car than the advertisements said. I saw were an LS6 Chevelle dyno'd around 255 hp to the wheels through a 3 speed auto.
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Old 06-25-2014, 11:46 AM   #5
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Lets also not forget the pathetic excuses they had for tires back then too....
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Old 06-25-2014, 11:48 AM   #6
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But also much easier to tune, with some adjustments and tires some of those cars are very fast for what they are. After so many years a 430hp camaro better be faster then a stock 70!
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Old 06-25-2014, 01:01 PM   #7
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First, when you are looking at Horsepower, you are looking at trap speeds. Crappy tires and poor 60' times have almost no effect on trap speeds.

This is why the NHRA rules are what they are.

Cars that could hit 100mph were considered at risk. This could happen at 14.0, so hence the 13.99 Helmet Rule.

Cars that could hit 120mph (11.99 then 11.49 later) were considered race cars, hence the rollbar, 5-pt, and fire jacket.

Cars that could hit 140mph (9.99) were considered animals. Full cage, fire system, etc.

I was racing motorcycles back then, and if I could click off a 12.90 with a license plate, I knew few cars with a license plate and street tires were going to catch me.

Imagine my surprise when in 2000, I took a bone stock Camaro SS to Carlsbad, spun the tires in 1st and 2nd, picked up the timeslip and it said 13.85@107.44 mph. :eek:

Really? OMG!!!

Wait. This thing is badged at 320HP!!! WTF???

DOT race tires and minor tweaks had the SS running 12.52@111mph in street trim on pump gas. No engine mods, no headers, factory muffler, through the cats.

(For those really curious 4th gen guys: M6 car, shifted at 6500rpm. Skinnies up front, M&H DOT's in back, remove spare, remove passenger seat, FastToys intake, larger Y-pipe, "Zed-Style" cutout, platinum plugs, bumped limiter to 6600rpm, richened it up, a little more timing in areas, 160°F thermostat. 343rwhp.)
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Old 06-25-2014, 06:01 PM   #8
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The 1967 Z/28 weighed within 100lb of the 1998 Z/28.
The 290HP DZ engine could just barely hit 101mph.
The 305HP LS1 engine could tag 107mph.

That's huge.

The 67 Z/28 was a bunch faster than many other cars of the same weight with more brochure HP.

There was a lot of debate in the late 90's whether the new cars were as fast as the cars of the Musclecar Era.

15 years later, that discussion is settled.
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Old 06-26-2014, 06:30 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2013 RaceRed 5.0 View Post
Well, the discussion on Bigfoot hasn't been settled either.

But indicating actual facts (excluding highly deceptive emotional attachments), the issue has been settled a long time ago.

It's rather obvious where vintage muscle and tales of the 4th gen SS stands in regards to today's iron ...

They were great cars, but it's not even close. Not by a long shot.

Still love 'em though.
Considering a 1998 Z28 or Formula can beat a 2010 Mustang GT and a 2009-2014 Challenger RT you might want to think about that statement a little more. The cars were POS's in everything other than the motor but they were straight up fast. Your not even close by a long shot statement is totally false. Despite what you think they were also underrated. The 305-310 HP rating was BS. Probably advertised that way for Vette owners.
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Old 06-26-2014, 06:46 AM   #10
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there was a lot of love for the old muscle cars for a long time. sure, the best ones struggled to run 13's, but look what happened from the mid 70's to mid 80's--- a lot of cars that struggled to break into the 15's or even 16's. so the old muscle cars were simply rockets compared to that.
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Old 06-26-2014, 08:54 AM   #11
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13.8? for the '98 Z/28? Only under the worst conditions. Yeah, I ran a 13.85 first pass ever in a car. By the end of that day, I was about 13.3.

In fact, Popular Mechanics put one in the 12's during their review of the LS1 Fbody.

The trick at the time was to put a stock F-body in the 12's. In 2001, the trick became to put the stock LS6 Vettes (Z06's) into the 11's.

The modern HP wars started in 1990, when GM released the 32v Mercury Marine DOHC V8 in their ZR-1 Corvette, but unlike the 60's, it was not affordable to the masses. It would take the release of the LS1 engine in C5 '97, then the LS1 F-body the next year to make 12 second cars that were affordable.

It would take Ford another 5 years to make an affordable hypercar, the 03 Cobra. While they did release the 2000 Cobra-R, only 300 were made, and priced accordingly.

Dodge was the last to get in the fray with the release of their new "Hemi" (not a hemi).
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Old 06-26-2014, 01:58 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2013 RaceRed 5.0 View Post
12's for a bumper-to-bumper bone stock 4th gen SS?

LOL

Seriously, the extended hyperbole about this car was barely interesting 20 years ago. Now, not so much.

And the modern muscle car wars began with the advent of the 1982 Mustang GT. Chevy fought back, and Ford upped the ante almost every year after that.


I'm an adult and like discussions involving reality. Guess it's time to move on.

PEACE
The 1998 4th Gen came with the LS1 motor, not the LT1 in the prior MYs of that generation. Mid to low 13s passes were widely reported, so it is not unreasonable that a good driver with great DA and track prep could dip into the 12s.

AND, the modern muscle era began with the '87 Buick Grand National. Chevrolet, Ford and Dodge were scrambling to catch up.
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Old 06-26-2014, 02:18 PM   #13
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Despite the short comings of old school muscle, that is exactly what led to the era of Pro Touring.

Probably one of the most BAD ASS aspects of old school muscle.

I'm relatively young but my dad built a pro touring '67 camaro with a chevy big block and custom fabricated EVERYTHING. It's fast, handles beautifully and in my opinion, taht is what old school muscle is all about! Moving with the times.
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Old 06-27-2014, 11:23 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2013 RaceRed 5.0 View Post
Old school muscle definitely has it's place in history, that's for sure!

The current SS/5.0 are genuine high 12/low 13 sec cars right from the factory (discounting hyperbole regarding 4th gen SS's that would have us falsely believe those cars could do the same). LS6's, Hemis and the like were never at that level of today's muscle, but boy, did they sure look/sound great.
The only thing stopping a LS1 Fbody M6 from clicking off a 12.x was traction. A 1.9 sixty would put you in the 12's with nothing changed.

Both Popular Mechanics (Firebird Formula WS6) and another mag (Z28) put LS1 Fbodies into the high 12's in reviews.

It only took us tires to go 12.89. No sticky tracks in the area. The 12.89 was clicked off at Carlsbad (RIP) that had grass growing in the lanes. Then minor changes dropped another .37 seconds off the time.

However the Goodyear OEM tires could not do it without a LOT of VHT.

A lot of "hotshoes" put their F-bodies in the 12's with no modifications, or so they said. Well over 100 "stock" fbodies were in 12 second club back then.

This has been debated as much as the 11 Second C5 Vettes. Which absolutely do exist. My wife put a 2002 stock Z06 into the 11's at Fontana and got us kicked off the track.

At least a dozen people put them into the 11's.

Now wait. 385HP or 405HP should not be able to do that. To put it bluntly, there were some techniques that allowed it, just like the Fbodies. No modifications, just tricks. Due to heat soak of the metal around the IAT sensor, you had to keep the TB cold. That was worth .4 seconds and 4 mph alone. Running gasoline with no ethanol in it helped as well.
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2013 Volt SCCA Solo2 #771 HS3.
And a bunch of Duramaxes.
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