More bad news, lifter issue possibly - Page 2 - Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums

Ravener · 10-22-2012, 11:22 AM

I'm trying not to be angry but this is becoming a damn circus. The cam and kit were installed exactly as they should be...the cam wasn't advanced or anything, just a straight up point to point install. Used all the kit components shipped by LG. No one mentioned any issues with stock lifters in any G6X3 cam discussion that I was aware of...but the builder indicated that the aggressive lobes damaged them (they can't even be pulled out...need to pull motor apart to get to them!). There is clear evidence of piston to value contact and the car has NEVER seen 6200+ rpm as of yet (redline with this cam is higher). I'm being told by LG that this cam has been used since late 2007 and that it must be the builders fault, which is bs. It's a straight up cam install. Even if they agreed to replace the cam, what the hell would I do that??? The cam apparently is the problem and wont work with my application apparently. Any recommendations as to what I should do now? Should LG refund the cost of the cam so I can procur something that won't trash my motor? Whats fair?

toml_pa · 10-22-2012, 12:28 PM

Sorry to hear about your problem. Here are two threads from ls1tech.com about G6X3 PTV clearance with the LS3.
G6X3 cam PTV clearance
emergency ls3 cam swap advice!
Very interesting reads, especially the second thread.

Russell James · 10-22-2012, 12:31 PM

A cam can be installed straight up dot to dot and still be way out of time. That is why they need to be degree checked on install. When installing a big cam, always do two things, degree check the #1 cyl timing events against the cam card, and check PTC clearance. Especially on a motor with flat tops and no valve reliefs in the pistons when dealing with a high lift cam.

It wasn't the lifters. Lifters don't cause PTV contact.

I'd check to see if that shop has the tools and knowledge to check the cam timing. If you can get a cam card for that cam, and they can check the timing of the cam against it, is the only way to know if the cam timing is correct. I've seen a couple of performance cams over the years installed perfectly straight up, but way out of time. Etiher ground wrong, timing gear set pin location off a hair... Pushrod length would be another thing to double check.

A cam or timing set machined out of time/spec is pretty rare, more common is mistakes like... wrong pushrods.

There is more to a big cam install than just lining the dots up. That is putting a lot of faith into there not being any PTV clearance problems, the timing set is perfect, cam ground perfect, correct push rods... If the valves hit the pistons, something there isn't right if there was never an over-rev.

litle88 · 10-22-2012, 12:46 PM

We need some pics bud! It doesn't matter on the aggressiveness of the cam as long as the rest of the mods are in to support it. Can you tell us more? Who installed it? Was the cam retainer tight? Did the cam walk a Lil bit? Did you mill the heads? Trunion upgrade ?

Also make sure the shop shows you the parts that are being removed, what if the installer didn't put in the pushrods? Just saying, and please post pics.

I Agreed with Russell

litle88 · 10-22-2012, 12:50 PM

There is a possibility also of a lifter turning, but we need pics also. This is why I chose Morel linkbar lifters. Just my .2 and throwing ideas out. This sucks! Hate to hear this stuff.

Ravener · 10-22-2012, 01:14 PM

I'll post up pics as I get them. Installer is still pulling everything apart apparently. It was installed by Tim at TandT Performance here in MD and he's been good to work with and a stand up guy in trying to resolve this mess. The heads are stock, not sure regarding the trunion upgrade as the LG kit was supposed to come with a number of things that weren't in the package when received. The pushrods are definitely the comp ones from the kit as I pulled and checked a few when I removed the valve covers to try to diagnose before towing the ss. I just want to relsove this mess as quickly as possible. Right now I can't think of a reason why I'd stick with the G cam at this point. Even thinking of flycutting the pistons (assuming the cam can be salvaged or replaced) is an expensive proposition.

PIPE · 10-22-2012, 01:58 PM

Man this sucks. Sorry to Hear Ravener. Guess this is why we didnt see ya yesterday morning at the FCC. Was looking forward to meeting you and discussing the topic we PM'd about.

Louis @ LG Motorsports · 10-22-2012, 02:02 PM

A few things- Piston to valve is close, yes. There are a number of reasons and things that could cause PTV contact. Too many variables to know what happened.

We stand behind our products, and we will take care of this customer, but lifters are not the collateral damage, if they are stuck in the block, its not the cams fault, they do not fail lifters in one full swoop like that. Believe it or not, if a lifter turned, it was most likely an oil problem.

The EPA has mandated stricter rules on the PPM allowed in the tailpipe. Oil manufacturers pulled a lot of Zinc and Phosphate out of the oil to meet these requirements.

When you add additional load to the valvetrain, like adding a cam, it needs this quality oil. Oil like Joe Gibbs LS30, Redline street or redline race oil, Valvoline VR20, Brad Penn, etc. These are not EPA certified, but our high performance engines NEED these oils.

I need to see the parts before we can warranty anything. We stand behind our products, but neglect is not something that can be warrantied.

Louis

The 2010 Sin · 10-22-2012, 03:16 PM

Sounds like a frozen lifter, thats what I had. Flat spots on my cam etc. SUCKED.

Ravener · 10-22-2012, 03:27 PM

All of the intake side lifters are damaged/collapsed from what I'm being told. The engine builder is stating that the cam is too aggressive for the stock heads and something about needing roller rockers, superior lifters and possibly longer rods to use this cam grind? I'm still waiting on more info as this unfolds. I'm truly at a loss for how to proceed now. :(

Kelly@PCMofNC · 10-22-2012, 04:32 PM

Sorry to hear about this, I hope you can get everything figured out and build something bigger and badder next time around. This kind of stuff is never fun :(

rdblan2 · 10-22-2012, 04:40 PM

Hey man! Sorry to hear about your troubles! Stay strong.

Anthony @ LG Motorsports · 10-22-2012, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ravener

All of the intake side lifters are damaged/collapsed from what I'm being told. The engine builder is stating that the cam is too aggressive for the stock heads and something about needing roller rockers, superior lifters and possibly longer rods to use this cam grind? I'm still waiting on more info as this unfolds. I'm truly at a loss for how to proceed now. :(

To many of these being used on stock rocker arms and stock lifters....the cam has been out for far to long.

Even the car we did the first cam in (2008 C6) is still going strong on the first set of lifters and cam, and the car is road raced every summer. He is already on his second or third set of valve springs at this point.

litle88 · 10-22-2012, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ravener

All of the intake side lifters are damaged/collapsed from what I'm being told. The engine builder is stating that the cam is too aggressive for the stock heads and something about needing roller rockers, superior lifters and possibly longer rods to use this cam grind? I'm still waiting on more info as this unfolds. I'm truly at a loss for how to proceed now. :(

Sorry bud but if your engine builder is suggesting roller rockers (why?) and longer pushrods?(that will push the valve further down) I would ask him if he's into LsX motors. Just my .2

10-22-2012, 11:22 AM	#15
Ravener Drives: 2010 2SS RS M6 Blk Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Md Posts: 287	I'm trying not to be angry but this is becoming a damn circus. The cam and kit were installed exactly as they should be...the cam wasn't advanced or anything, just a straight up point to point install. Used all the kit components shipped by LG. No one mentioned any issues with stock lifters in any G6X3 cam discussion that I was aware of...but the builder indicated that the aggressive lobes damaged them (they can't even be pulled out...need to pull motor apart to get to them!). There is clear evidence of piston to value contact and the car has NEVER seen 6200+ rpm as of yet (redline with this cam is higher). I'm being told by LG that this cam has been used since late 2007 and that it must be the builders fault, which is bs. It's a straight up cam install. Even if they agreed to replace the cam, what the hell would I do that??? The cam apparently is the problem and wont work with my application apparently. Any recommendations as to what I should do now? Should LG refund the cost of the cam so I can procur something that won't trash my motor? Whats fair? __________________ 418 LS3, custom cam, tuned vararam, ported tb, Kooks stepped LT's, Kooks Hi-Flo cats and 2.5" street sleeper cat back, 18% UDP, crap stock rear tire size 12.03 @ 117 mph.

10-22-2012, 12:46 PM	#18
litle88 V8 Lounge member #2 Drives: 2001 Ws6 Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Burbank,IL Posts: 6,373	We need some pics bud! It doesn't matter on the aggressiveness of the cam as long as the rest of the mods are in to support it. Can you tell us more? Who installed it? Was the cam retainer tight? Did the cam walk a Lil bit? Did you mill the heads? Trunion upgrade ? Also make sure the shop shows you the parts that are being removed, what if the installer didn't put in the pushrods? Just saying, and please post pics. I Agreed with Russell __________________ 2001 ws6, 40k miles, Ls3 416 stroker, short block built by PER the rest by me. LPE Ls3 heads milled to 12-1 comp, FAST 102, NW 102, kooks 2", dual DMH cutouts, Magnaflow C/B, BTR cam + springs. Full UMI suspension.

10-22-2012, 12:50 PM	#19
litle88 V8 Lounge member #2 Drives: 2001 Ws6 Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Burbank,IL Posts: 6,373	There is a possibility also of a lifter turning, but we need pics also. This is why I chose Morel linkbar lifters. Just my .2 and throwing ideas out. This sucks! Hate to hear this stuff. __________________ 2001 ws6, 40k miles, Ls3 416 stroker, short block built by PER the rest by me. LPE Ls3 heads milled to 12-1 comp, FAST 102, NW 102, kooks 2", dual DMH cutouts, Magnaflow C/B, BTR cam + springs. Full UMI suspension.

10-22-2012, 01:14 PM	#20
Ravener Drives: 2010 2SS RS M6 Blk Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Md Posts: 287	I'll post up pics as I get them. Installer is still pulling everything apart apparently. It was installed by Tim at TandT Performance here in MD and he's been good to work with and a stand up guy in trying to resolve this mess. The heads are stock, not sure regarding the trunion upgrade as the LG kit was supposed to come with a number of things that weren't in the package when received. The pushrods are definitely the comp ones from the kit as I pulled and checked a few when I removed the valve covers to try to diagnose before towing the ss. I just want to relsove this mess as quickly as possible. Right now I can't think of a reason why I'd stick with the G cam at this point. Even thinking of flycutting the pistons (assuming the cam can be salvaged or replaced) is an expensive proposition. __________________ 418 LS3, custom cam, tuned vararam, ported tb, Kooks stepped LT's, Kooks Hi-Flo cats and 2.5" street sleeper cat back, 18% UDP, crap stock rear tire size 12.03 @ 117 mph.

10-22-2012, 01:58 PM	#21
PIPE Hating prius's since 1997 Drives: 2010 Camaro 2SS/RS (JENNA) Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Maryland Posts: 1,039	Man this sucks. Sorry to Hear Ravener. Guess this is why we didnt see ya yesterday morning at the FCC. Was looking forward to meeting you and discussing the topic we PM'd about. __________________ PIPE

10-22-2012, 12:28 PM	#16
toml_pa ʇuɐıʌǝp lɐıɔos Drives: 2011 2SS/RS LS3/M6 Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 231	Sorry to hear about your problem. Here are two threads from ls1tech.com about G6X3 PTV clearance with the LS3. G6X3 cam PTV clearance emergency ls3 cam swap advice! Very interesting reads, especially the second thread.

10-22-2012, 12:31 PM	#17
Russell James Drives: '15 SS 1LE, '69 Z28 drag car Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Mich Posts: 4,482	A cam can be installed straight up dot to dot and still be way out of time. That is why they need to be degree checked on install. When installing a big cam, always do two things, degree check the #1 cyl timing events against the cam card, and check PTC clearance. Especially on a motor with flat tops and no valve reliefs in the pistons when dealing with a high lift cam. It wasn't the lifters. Lifters don't cause PTV contact. I'd check to see if that shop has the tools and knowledge to check the cam timing. If you can get a cam card for that cam, and they can check the timing of the cam against it, is the only way to know if the cam timing is correct. I've seen a couple of performance cams over the years installed perfectly straight up, but way out of time. Etiher ground wrong, timing gear set pin location off a hair... Pushrod length would be another thing to double check. A cam or timing set machined out of time/spec is pretty rare, more common is mistakes like... wrong pushrods. There is more to a big cam install than just lining the dots up. That is putting a lot of faith into there not being any PTV clearance problems, the timing set is perfect, cam ground perfect, correct push rods... If the valves hit the pistons, something there isn't right if there was never an over-rev.

10-22-2012, 02:02 PM	#22
Louis @ LG Motorsports Drives: 2010 SS/RS 2009 CG Z06 Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Dallas Tx Posts: 122	A few things- Piston to valve is close, yes. There are a number of reasons and things that could cause PTV contact. Too many variables to know what happened. We stand behind our products, and we will take care of this customer, but lifters are not the collateral damage, if they are stuck in the block, its not the cams fault, they do not fail lifters in one full swoop like that. Believe it or not, if a lifter turned, it was most likely an oil problem. The EPA has mandated stricter rules on the PPM allowed in the tailpipe. Oil manufacturers pulled a lot of Zinc and Phosphate out of the oil to meet these requirements. When you add additional load to the valvetrain, like adding a cam, it needs this quality oil. Oil like Joe Gibbs LS30, Redline street or redline race oil, Valvoline VR20, Brad Penn, etc. These are not EPA certified, but our high performance engines NEED these oils. I need to see the parts before we can warranty anything. We stand behind our products, but neglect is not something that can be warrantied. Louis

10-22-2012, 03:16 PM	#23
The 2010 Sin Dont H8 Me Cuz U Aint Me Drives: 2016 SS Sedan, 2017 Explorer Sport Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Tulsa, Oklahoma Posts: 2,910	Sounds like a frozen lifter, thats what I had. Flat spots on my cam etc. SUCKED. __________________

10-22-2012, 03:27 PM	#24
Ravener Drives: 2010 2SS RS M6 Blk Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Md Posts: 287	All of the intake side lifters are damaged/collapsed from what I'm being told. The engine builder is stating that the cam is too aggressive for the stock heads and something about needing roller rockers, superior lifters and possibly longer rods to use this cam grind? I'm still waiting on more info as this unfolds. I'm truly at a loss for how to proceed now. :( __________________ 418 LS3, custom cam, tuned vararam, ported tb, Kooks stepped LT's, Kooks Hi-Flo cats and 2.5" street sleeper cat back, 18% UDP, crap stock rear tire size 12.03 @ 117 mph.

10-22-2012, 04:32 PM	#25
Kelly@PCMofNC Drives: 2010 RS/SS Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Mooresville, NC Posts: 959	Sorry to hear about this, I hope you can get everything figured out and build something bigger and badder next time around. This kind of stuff is never fun :(

10-22-2012, 04:40 PM	#26
rdblan2 Drives: 2SS RS Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: MD Posts: 1,272	Hey man! Sorry to hear about your troubles! Stay strong. __________________ Livernois 2C cam and tune, LS3 conversion, Roto-Fab intake, Kooks headers, DSS driveshaft and axles, BMR suspension parts, VMax ported throttle body, Whipple blower. (623hp).