Will GM learn from this forum

[interrex]

[FirstLSK]

They already have and they do. There have been many changes to the Camaro as a result of GM polling the enthusiast forums.

They are listening daily, however there are many other elements that go into the decisions as well.

BTW -- we are blessed to have several GM employees that visit this forum on a regular basis.


Other than small detail changes, I think GM will have a difficult time improving upon the 2010 Camaro design. They knocked it out of the park with this car.

[Silver Streak]

Originally Posted by FirstLSK

They already have and they do. There have been many changes to the Camaro as a result of GM polling the enthusiast forums.

They are listening daily, however there are many other elements that go into the decisions as well.

BTW -- we are blessed to have several GM employees that visit this forum on a regular basis.


Other than small detail changes, I think GM will have a difficult time improving upon the 2010 Camaro design. They knocked it out of the park with this car.

[fastball]

I was just going to direct you to the thread this is posted from, but then I decided to make it easier on you interrex to just post it here. Maybe you've already read it, but judging by your comments I don't think you have. You've been around on this forum long enough to know who Scott is, and if you don't, do a little research before you make another post here:

From the very beginning -- I -- and several others -- felt that it was crucial to bring the Camaro Enthusiast community into as many events and decisions as possible.

I cannot make that decision -- the decision is made at the very top of the company. We (John/Cheryl/myself and others) had to convince Corporate Leadership that this was a great idea and that there was no down-side............and I would have bet every cent to my name that there would have been no down-side...

I also know that no other car company has ever been more 'open' about a new car.......especially a car as endeared and revered as the Camaro.

We felt strongly that we should have input from the Camaro Enthusiast community.








................

We tried to keep the car hidden until proper pictures could be taken...........and, as most of us know, pictures hit the web of the black and white IVERs...............and one of the first 'panics du jour' was "THE HEADLIGHTS!!! Horrible remarks...........and of course I tried for weeks to explain "They aren't the real headlights!" -- someone FINALLY came up with a smiley so that I didn't have to keep repeating myself.......

.........and then there was the unauthorized picture of the interior with all that tape..................horrors!

.....................and then there was the Shunt Saga -- ( what a hoot! -- that was fun because it made me laugh on some days where it was impossible for me to even smile....)

Then the picture of the white car in the garage leaked -- all due to an overzealous person who was 'well-meaning' -- again -- people went crazy -- even though many of us said "slow down -- not a good picture -- you'd better withhold judgement......." -- and when you look back, you realize how ridiculous it all was -- and how we wasted so much time and energy..........

(.........and can someone please explain what's wrong with being a 'fan-boy' as some claim?
I keep hearing "fanboy" -- as if it's something to be ashamed of........

Is it shameful to be enthusiastic?

Is it some badge of honor to bash those who show enthusiasm?

Why is it that when someone supports us, they're wrong for doing so -- or, it seems it's implied that they must be "challenged" in order to agree with us..........?? Why is that???? Does that not just sound a bit shameful???)


Now --

Let's talk about two items that are co-joined...............

Ambient Lighting

and

Mr. Hendrick's Camaro.


Ambient Lighting first --

What a great idea! But look at the uproar when we announced that it will only be in the doors for now and not on the I.P. applique!

Had we just never talked about it to anyone on the 'outside'.......and kept the Camaro under wraps -- we would not have this issue because you can't usually get upset about something that you've never heard of before.........but no --- we talked about it....you asked us to be open and sharing -- and we were -- and you saw the furor.........

Our teams worked so hard to get this feature in the car -- but there were issues -- such as 'fit and finish' (pay attention to those last three words - - 'fit and finish' -- 'cause we'll get back to them in a minute...)

You cannot begin to imagine the man hours that were invested just on this one feature. Why did we do it? Because you wanted it!

And WE wanted it!!

And we wanted to deliver...........

At some point, a hard decision must be made -- we're ready to go into production - and we haven't solved the problem........so the call was made - and Ambient Lighting will only appear in the doors -- at least for now.

Question: should we delay the start-up of the car for another month? Two months? Until we get Ambient Lighting to where we'd like it? Remember - most of you can hardly sleep at night because you want your Camaro last year...............

The call was made that we need to start producing cars -- you want them -- we want them -- and we need to start production..........

Now -- Mr. Hendrick's Camaro.

I was bombarded with requests to do something special at Oshawa on March 16. If this were a perfect world, we'd have invited EVERYONE there to celebrate...........but friends, this isn't a perfect world.

Our number one concern MUST be QUALITY. That means we need to minimize any distraction in the plant..........and 10,000 of our closest and dearest friends would have definitely been a distraction!

Now.......lets assume that some of the early parts that we received from many of our suppliers are not quite right.........(and THIS IS IMPORTANT: EVERY manufacturer has problems with parts and components; both those built internally and those built by suppliers......EVERY means Toyota, and Honda, and BMW, and Rolls, and EVERY manufacturer!

......sooooo....what do we do?

Do we delay production for another week? Another month? ...............

............OR -- do we build some cars -- park 'em -- and, as the replacement parts that are correct arrive at the assembly plant -- we 'replace' them PRIOR to shipping?

The answer is: We replace that/those components or parts! Every manufacturer does!

Now -- another reason there was heart-burn in having enthusiasts at the plant on the 16th is: we KNEW that some of the cars would not be "ready to ship" completely. So.......you see -- by letting you in early -- we've opened ourselves to criticizm -- and some of it became criticizm became "borderline" at best..............

..........and then you have people like me -- and the rest of the team -- who are working 7 days a week under a lot of stress due to the industry-wide collapse.............and we're getting three hours of sleep at night -- and when we DO sleep, we dream of the job and all its problems...................................and then I keep getting emails about various threads and notes like "Fbodfather, can you come in here to this thread and set people straight...." -- and I take the time -- and then I am again and again questioned and disbelieved.

.........................................and then I start to get upset ----

Because you see -- I guarantee that there WILL be people who question whether we should ever do this again -- meaning -- bringing our enthusiasts into the process --because we now know that there IS a downside---- and because once someone posts something on the internet -- it's forever -- as we all know.

So -- was a thread started that was worded inappropriately? Maybe so.

Did I over-react? Boy howdy!

Will any of us learn from this?

I'd like to think so -- but I also suspect that there might one or two "panics du jour" before the cars get into customers' hands. ......or mebbe not!!


Mr. Hendrick's car had not gone thru final inspection. It could not receive a part that did not exist in its final form.........

Someone did not understand that.

Others said we were wrong to let the car be shown in that condition..........without knowing all the facts......

Mr. Hendrick's car will receive a couple of retro-fits.

We are committed to bringing you the best Camaro ever.

We are not morons.

We will stand behind our product.

Personally? I've put myself out here for many years -- I'm not going anywhere-- (at least I hope not!!! )

,,,,,,,,,,,,and I'm telling you that we're working harder than ever to bring you a world class Camaro --that will embarrass cars costing thousands and thousands of dollars more........and while we'll have problems now and then -- we WILL work to solve them.........

Will there be problems? Friends -- show me a perfect car. There is no such thing. Even Rolls and Maybach have problems - including fit and finish..........

Will some of you manage to destroy your Camaro or some of its components?

Well -- if we engineer the car to, say --- 500hp -- you KNOW someone will do something to get it to 600hp -- and if we engineered it to 600hp (and add a couple MORE hundred pounds by the way ..) someone will hit 700..........................

The answer is, sadly -- yes.


Now --

How 'bout we (that's you and me) start to think before we start abusing the keyboard?

I have to believe we all want a great Camaro...............

Please Remember- "It ain't ready 'til it's ready!" Just because we show it to you early, doesn’t mean it’s ready.

..........and NOW I'm going to walk down the street and meet my Dear Camaro/Firebird friends from the great city of New Orleans!

Thank You Scott

[Rogue Leader]

Originally Posted by interrex

Will Gm learn from this Forum when customers want something on their cars, to listen and do quickly. An example of this is the FAILED GTO. The body did not come out as planned. Interior was not up to standards and the dealers raped the public the first year of sales before the car got off the ground. Just curios on your thoughts of what makes a car a best seller or a great loser.
I for one would love to see the hidden head lights like on the retro 69 Camaro as a option RS model. Lets sound off people..

I'd like to echo the comments above from Scott.

Listening to a narrow band of enthusiasts who have nothing better to do than bitch about things online (myself included!) is NOT how to run a business.

Just as an aside, how was the GTO interior not up to standards? It was probably the nicest and highest quality GM interior this side of a Cadillac.

[joepitt]

My problem with the GTO was it looked way too much like everything else on the road.

[boxmonkeyracing]

Yep they learned from us,
Learned how important headlights, abl, bumpers, performance etc... is. Guess u hadn't paid attention. But oh well. The above posts hit the mark.

[The_Blur]

There are some very influential minds from GM on this forum. They are here to give us insight into what they are doing and to listen to our insight on what we want. They have done an incredible job of both.

[fbodfather]

Originally Posted by interrex

Will Gm learn from this Forum when customers want something on their cars, to listen and do quickly. An example of this is the FAILED GTO. The body did not come out as planned. Interior was not up to standards and the dealers raped the public the first year of sales before the car got off the ground. Just curios on your thoughts of what makes a car a best seller or a great loser.
I for one would love to see the hidden head lights like on the retro 69 Camaro as a option RS model. Lets sound off people..

of course we listen -HOWEVER -- not everyone wants to hear the answer....proof? I can't get 10 people on this site alone to agree on anything other than: RWD and MORE HORSEPOWER!

*grin*


Let's address each of your points briefly, shall we?

I'm not sure what you mean by "body did not come out as planned" -- sure it did! We took a Holden Monaro and re-engineered it to meet U.S. Standards. (23M to relocate fuel system to meet U.S. Standards!!!) -- This was simply a case of 'we have a RWD performance coupe that we make in Australia -- we've stopped building the Camaro and Firebird -- we can offer U.S. Consumers a performance coupe -- in limited numbers.' -- should it have been called GTO? In my opinion, no. BUT -- hindsight is always 20/20.

I'm not sure everyone would agree with you on your interior assessment -- but then again, it's important to understand that we were building the Monaro for some time -- it wasn't like we had just designed it.......so the interior design was a few years old........

AS to dealers 'raping' the public -- I've discussed this issue at least a hundred times. Briefly: it is against federal law for any person from General Motors or any other manufacturer to tell a dealer what he or she can sell a car for -- it's called "Anti-trust" -- and people have gone to jail for breaking that law. If the dealer has a car that has an MSRP (we establish MSRP only) -- of $30,000 -- he or she is free to charge one penny -- or $100,000K -- you as the customer are entitled to 'just say no!' Don't like the law?
Call Nancy Pelosi...........

Hidden headlights? I loved 'em!

BUT:

>they add weight
>they DO fail (and that is a customer dissatisfier)
>show me ONE 1st gen Camaro where the headlight doors align properly to the grille and fenders!

....remember-- hideaways came out when we only could use sealed beam headlamps -- the lighting laws have changed and allow us to do other things - and we chose the 'halos' for the 5th gen........


Again - we DO listen to consumers -- the company that doesn't won't be in business very long..........but we also have to be prudent.

I happened to get a link to another site (sent to me by a friend....) -- and evidently the people on that site think that the people on this site lick my boots. (hmmmmm.....kinky......) -- and one fellow was berating me because I don't "understand what the public wants!" -- and he felt that we should offer a new Camaro without Air Conditioning or power windows or power locks.......

OK --

How many Camaros do you suppose we'd sell that way? (show me data in BLACK AND WHITE, please....)

Here's what people don't understand -- to do what that fellow is asking would add a LOT of cost to the car -- for instance: we'd have to engineer FOUR interior door mechanisms rather than two (left and right) -- we'd have to offer at least 6 to 8 different wiring harnesses -- for cars with power windows, but no door locks -- for cars WITH door locks but no windows......

..........and that's just for starters.

The reality is that we'd probably sell a couple hundred cars without windows/locks/air -- and it would cause the base price of the car to significantly rise -- (we have to charge all of those expenses somewhere!) So - would it have been appropriate to add several hundred dollars -- and I mean SEVERAL -- to the base price of a Camaro so that a couple of people could say "Look at my window crank!!!"...........

I don't think so and the people we talked to in depth don't think so either......and evidently Ford and Chrysler see it the same way -- cuz you can't get the Mustang or the Challenger without Air or power stuff either..........


(things that make you go: "hhhhmmmmmmmm")

So - -we do listen -- we just don't always give the answer that everyone wants to hear.

[The_Blur]

I always arbitrarily agree with fbodfather because he tends to be right. Now, he only has to get 9 more people to agree with him on some issue in this post to meet his 10-person quota.

Fbodfather, those boots look dirty. Why don't I lick those for you?

[dougmac]

Again, well said Scott ... it was really a surprise as I scrolled down to see your reply in this thread !!

As far as the base "stripped" model, Ford tried it with the all new 1994 Mustang and kept it for the enthusiest's who cried for it only until 1996. I don't know numbers, but Ford sold very few '94-96 Mustangs with Crank windows & no A/C ... I'm sure the effort WAS NOT worth the money spent.

You and the Camaro team have definitely made the right choice on this subject especially for a car design 16 model years later !!

Doug

[DDustiNN]

Originally Posted by fbodfather

of course we listen -HOWEVER -- not everyone wants to hear the answer....proof? I can't get 10 people on this site alone to agree on anything other than: RWD and MORE HORSEPOWER!

*grin*


Let's address each of your points briefly, shall we?

I'm not sure what you mean by "body did not come out as planned" -- sure it did! We took a Holden Monaro and re-engineered it to meet U.S. Standards. (23M to relocate fuel system to meet U.S. Standards!!!) -- This was simply a case of 'we have a RWD performance coupe that we make in Australia -- we've stopped building the Camaro and Firebird -- we can offer U.S. Consumers a performance coupe -- in limited numbers.' -- should it have been called GTO? In my opinion, no. BUT -- hindsight is always 20/20.

I'm not sure everyone would agree with you on your interior assessment -- but then again, it's important to understand that we were building the Monaro for some time -- it wasn't like we had just designed it.......so the interior design was a few years old........

AS to dealers 'raping' the public -- I've discussed this issue at least a hundred times. Briefly: it is against federal law for any person from General Motors or any other manufacturer to tell a dealer what he or she can sell a car for -- it's called "Anti-trust" -- and people have gone to jail for breaking that law. If the dealer has a car that has an MSRP (we establish MSRP only) -- of $30,000 -- he or she is free to charge one penny -- or $100,000K -- you as the customer are entitled to 'just say no!' Don't like the law?
Call Nancy Pelosi...........

Hidden headlights? I loved 'em!

BUT:

>they add weight
>they DO fail (and that is a customer dissatisfier)
>show me ONE 1st gen Camaro where the headlight doors align properly to the grille and fenders!

....remember-- hideaways came out when we only could use sealed beam headlamps -- the lighting laws have changed and allow us to do other things - and we chose the 'halos' for the 5th gen........


Again - we DO listen to consumers -- the company that doesn't won't be in business very long..........but we also have to be prudent.

I happened to get a link to another site (sent to me by a friend....) -- and evidently the people on that site think that the people on this site lick my boots. (hmmmmm.....kinky......) -- and one fellow was berating me because I don't "understand what the public wants!" -- and he felt that we should offer a new Camaro without Air Conditioning or power windows or power locks.......

OK --

How many Camaros do you suppose we'd sell that way? (show me data in BLACK AND WHITE, please....)

Here's what people don't understand -- to do what that fellow is asking would add a LOT of cost to the car -- for instance: we'd have to engineer FOUR interior door mechanisms rather than two (left and right) -- we'd have to offer at least 6 to 8 different wiring harnesses -- for cars with power windows, but no door locks -- for cars WITH door locks but no windows......

..........and that's just for starters.

The reality is that we'd probably sell a couple hundred cars without windows/locks/air -- and it would cause the base price of the car to significantly rise -- (we have to charge all of those expenses somewhere!) So - would it have been appropriate to add several hundred dollars -- and I mean SEVERAL -- to the base price of a Camaro so that a couple of people could say "Look at my window crank!!!"...........

I don't think so and the people we talked to in depth don't think so either......and evidently Ford and Chrysler see it the same way -- cuz you can't get the Mustang or the Challenger without Air or power stuff either..........


(things that make you go: "hhhhmmmmmmmm")

So - -we do listen -- we just don't always give the answer that everyone wants to hear.

[Cyberfan]

I think this forum is not typical of most Camaro buyers. People on this forum are Camaromaniacs and a lot will be the first buyers of the car without even waiting for a test drive. While Camaro5 people are the most loyal, there are not enough people here to make the Camaro the great success that the General needs. Most people will buy later after they see a few on the street or in a showroom. Those are people who might be trying to decide between a Mustang, Challenger or even a Nissan- not all true blue Chevy fans. That is the consumer that needs to be targeted IMO.

As far as pop-up headlights, that may be retro, but so are carburetors. Sounds expensive on an inexpensive car. It has to be practical and cost effective for GM to do. I think they have done pretty well, although some options (for example, ground effects package) are pretty expensive- but you don't have to get them. I wondered why they didn't offer a Nav screen as an option.

[Joe Remi]

The stripper Camaro comment was funny. We live in an era in which crank windows and no A/C ADD cost! Crazy. And yes, like the IDEA of a stripped/lightened Camaro, but would I BUY one? Nah.