solid cradle mounts

[PfadtRacing]

Designing parts is often a trade off of many variables. Knowing that these parts will see the brutal underside of the car we selected an aluminum alloy that's close enough to the Andonic index of steel to withstand direct contact to steel in salty environments without significant corrosion issues, then Anodized that aluminum for extra corrosion resistance. The subframe is painted, so although we construct our mounts with corrosion resistance of paramount importance, there is no metal to metal contact between the subframe and our mounts.

Keep in mind that with the Steel frame being painted, chances of direct metal to metal contact are slim. Properly installed there is no relative movement between our Subframe Spacers, the collars attached to the subframe, and the chassis it's self. The chances that there will be enough movement to wear through the paint on the subframe are pretty slim without some sort of circumstance outside of normal use. The hard anodizing is a chemical process to the surface of the aluminum which adds another level of corrosion resistance to keep reliability extremely high. We do all of our winter testing here in Salt Lake City, where roads are salted in the winter. Even under extreme freezing, thawing and salting of several Salt Lake City winters, we haven't seen a single bit of evidence showing corrosion between our Subframe Mounts and the Chassis.

One last thing to keep in mind... there are other instances in which there is untreated steel to aluminum contact on the Camaro stock. Bottom line, because we selected proper materials and chemical processes we expect our Solid Subframe Mounts to last the lifetime of the car. This isn't a wear item we're talking about here, just a properly engineered solid mount.

[SilverIceman]

Originally Posted by SilverIceman

Wow, gotta love these suspension wars. We learn so much about the competitors parts. So, will the steel frame rust or will the aluminum inserts pit away?

My question was meant to be a joke. I doubt any of the other materials will hold up as long as Pfadts.

Maybe I should have said, "we learn so much about the competitors"

[CausticGuy]

Originally Posted by blazzin1

Hey, I apologize, I did not mean to get anyone's undies in a bunch. I just thought that the BMR pieces would be a significantly less expensive alternative, and it turns out I was wrong, that's all...

Your not alone, I was really thinking the same thing. I was figuring on these being somewhere closer to $350. Im not being cheap, just thought they would be. Cant be right all the time I guess...

[BMR guy]

I don't think anybody is trying to discredit other brands. I believe Allan was simply stating why we chose Delrin vs. aluminum since we could have just as easily made ours aluminum. Material cost is almost identical and machine time is the same.

I want to tell a little story to help everyone understand our development process. We manufacture parts for 17 vehicle platforms. Over the past 15 years we have experimented with all kinds of bushing designs in our line of products. For the first and second generation Camaros we also manufacture Delrin body mounts which essentially do the same thing. This 43 year old market was dominated by solid aluminum bushings until we introduced Delrin as an option a few years back. Its natural low-friction properties makes it a natural for this application and the market is very quickly now turning to Delrin. Why didn't we just follow the crowd and machine aluminum bushings like everyone else? Because we listened to the forum members complaining how their pretty aluminum bushings corroded or how they chattered and needed re-tightening. On the early Camaros the body mount bushings interlock, clamping the subframe between them. One of the popular complaints was that the bushings would chatter or squeak and require periodic re-tightening. The most popular complaint however was that after a while they would corrode together making it almost impossible to get them back apart. Wanting to enter this market we began looking into alternative designs for our product. We considered just increasing the tolerances to allow for corrosion buildup or simply building a non-interlocking design. Eventually we just stepped back, looked at the problem from a different perspective and realized just how simple the solution was - don't use aluminum. This is how the Delrin body mount bushings were developed. This application was a little different than the Fifth gen and not prone to some of the issues stated but the requirements are essentially the same.

Over the years we have since used Delrin in many applications with great success. For us this was a no-brainer when it came time to develop our solid bushings for the Fifth gen.

[ducatisl]

I'd imagine the only corrosion on a hard anodized aluminum bushing would be where the thru bolt interfaces with the bushing and has possibly gouged the anodized layer off during torquing, or possibly where the steel subframe cavity has rubbed the anodizing off the bushing O.D. as well.

However, as an enthusiast who has done ALL of his own bushing installs over the past 20+ years, after which, each time I swear to never EVER do it again, I'd prefer something with just a little more give, such as Delrin or even one of the harder durometer polyurethanes.

[PfadtRacing]

Originally Posted by BMR

I don't think anybody is trying to discredit other brands. I believe Allan was simply stating why we chose Delrin vs. aluminum since we could have just as easily made ours aluminum. Material cost is almost identical and machine time is the same.

Agreed, I think we're all on the same page here. To reiterate your point, Delrin isn't the easiest or cheapest material to work with. I don't think anyone is out to gouge the public with price points here.

Originally Posted by ducatisl

However, as an enthusiast who has done ALL of his own bushing installs over the past 20+ years, after which, each time I swear to never EVER do it again, I'd prefer something with just a little more give, such as Delrin or even one of the harder durometer polyurethanes.

That's a valid concern. A lot of folks are worried about the word solid when talking about bushings, and if we were talking about control arms on a street car Noise/Vibration/Harshness is necessary to take into account. We can absolutely say the increase in NVH with a solid bushing at this particular piece in the suspension has a minimal impact to NVH. There are still multiple points of isolation between the road surface and the chassis after the install of solid mounts, and solid mounts are a fantastic upgrade for daily driven street cars concerned about increased performance while retaining ride quality.

[JDP Motorsports]

I've had the Pfadt mounts installed in my Camaro for over 6 months now and I drive it almost everyday. The NVH is none existent IMHO and the performance gain is substantial. The C5/C6 Corvette for instance has "Solid" mounted sub-frames. As Pfadt said above the suspension is still isolated through control arms and spring isolators. I wouldn't go any other way in terms of sub-frame mounts on my own car.

Where I did notice noise was via the diff bushings. I wouldn't suggest changing them unless they're worn out or your a hardcore drag racer. The noise isn't crazy but it is there and it doesn't matter who the manufacture is; they all do it. There is certainly a performance advantage to the diff bushings but I don't suggest them for everyday street use.

Kind regards,

Jordan Priestley
888.308.6007

[ducatisl]

Originally Posted by PfadtRacing

...We can absolutely say the increase in NVH with a solid bushing at this particular piece in the suspension has a minimal impact to NVH.

I wasn't disagreeing, in fact, I completely agree with this assessment from both you and JP. I was merely pointing out that if "I" were the one getting greasy installing bushings, I'd "personally" prefer something not quite so...solid. Now if I were to pay someone to do my dirty work, then certainly I'd follow your advice.

[BMR guy]

Just thought I would post a few pics of the Delrin Cradle Bushings installed...

[JDP Motorsports]

Originally Posted by BMR guy

Just thought I would post a few pics of the Delrin Cradle Bushings installed...

Nice! I'm going to have to order some of those Rear Lower Control Arms!!!

Kind regards,

Jordan Priestley
888.308.6007

[JusticePete]

Rubber bushes do not completely isolate the chassis from noise. Rubber bushes reduce noise. There are thousands of OE engineers that stay up nights trying to figure out a better designed rubber bush to improve control and keep noise out of the cabin. That is why the OE sub-frame bushes are deeply voided including the new improved versions. The harder the material the more noise it will transmit, unless the laws of physics have been repealed for sub-frame bushes.

We can look at this another way as well. It appears that most all vendors and 5th Gen owners agree that solid differential bushes increase the noise transmitted from the differential to the cabin. The differential is connected to the sub-frame. How does that increase in differential noise get to the cabin? It travels through the differential mounting bushes to the sub-frame and is transferred from the sub-frame by the bolts, ferules, fiber reinforced plastic sub-frame bush jackets and the OE rubber in the subframe bushes or through solid aluminum bushes or through urethane bushes or bushes of any material.

Soft rubber and air gaps deaden noise.
Hard material conducts noise.

Pedders EP1200 Inserts - owners report no noise increase to very slight increase in road noise.

Pedders EP1201 full replacement bushes - owners report slight to modest increase in road noise.

EP1201HD full replacement bushes - owners report a noticeable increase in road noise.

Our clients ears report exactly what we would expect based on the materials and our own ears as we went through the development cycle.

[TLSTWIN]

Originally Posted by JusticePete

Pedders EP1200 Inserts - owners report no noise increase to very slight increase in road noise.

Pedders EP1201 full replacement bushes - owners report slight to modest increase in road noise.

EP1200HD full replacement bushes - owners report a noticeable increase in road noise.

fixed

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by TLSTWIN

fixed

Thank you sir!