Heel and Toeing v6 - Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums

mdiaz0618 · 07-22-2012, 05:13 PM

Whats up everyone, kind of a nooby question here, but whenever i heel and toe into 2nd gear, I either 1. give it alot of gas and end up going so slow, or 2. not giving enough and jerking alittle. 3. I give it the right amount of gas and i still jerk.

Im practicing my ass off and still cant get it down right, Anybody else on the same boat? How much gas are you suppose to give it when you downshift into 2nd? v6 1LS

Thanks

DarkneSS · 07-22-2012, 07:26 PM

Wish I could explain, I generally just "feel" it. If I'm going slow and I'm downshifting to 2nd I normally give it a small pulse and that does the trick perfectly. It really depends on the speed. 2nd goes from about 8mph at idle to 65mph at redline so the closer your current speed is to 8mph the less gas you should give it. Like if I'm on a hill stopped waiting for a light, when it turns green I'll roll in neutral if its steep enough then press the clutch in and put it in 2nd. When I hit 8 mph I let off the clutch with no gas and the gear engages smoothly. Now lets say I'm rolling on flat ground same situation with the car in 2nd and the clutch in, and I'm going say 20 mph, I'll give her about 20-25% throttle. If I'm going 45-65 mph and I want to go into 2nd, which are likely race like situations, I'll give it a minimum of 60-80% throttle to get that perfect downshift with no jerk.

How many miles do you have? You probably just need practice.

My best advice, start by giving it more gas than you think you need and work your way down into finding the sweet spot. You won't cause too much damage giving it more gas but you will if you aren't giving enough and you jerk it, which means you're bogging.

Lol I hope I helped even a tiny bit, very hard to explain over the internet.

mdiaz0618 · 07-22-2012, 07:33 PM

haha wow, thanks bro, yeah I have about 3700 miles on it, I was driving to Jersey today and all of a sudden i was thinking to myself, why the hell do i keep jerking into 2nd going into turns and stuff lol

mdiaz0618 · 07-22-2012, 07:37 PM

Alot of people say that you dont have to heel toe in everyday driving situations, but how are you ever going to turn without doing it? haha what part of NY are you?

DarkneSS · 07-23-2012, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mdiaz0618

Alot of people say that you dont have to heel toe in everyday driving situations, but how are you ever going to turn without doing it? haha what part of NY are you?

You do you just don't need to do it all that much. If you live in NY you have to downshift a lot so you better learn the right way or you will mess your car up quick ya know? I'm over in Yonkers/White Plains!

Quote:

Originally Posted by mdiaz0618

haha wow, thanks bro, yeah I have about 3700 miles on it, I was driving to Jersey today and all of a sudden i was thinking to myself, why the hell do i keep jerking into 2nd going into turns and stuff lol

Yeah this is my first stick car and I've heard from others that its a bit tricky of a stick car to drive. 1st gear is like a 4.x gear ratio too so its very short, i think thats why going from 1st to 2nd without jerking takes a little more practice at first.

Norm Peterson · 07-24-2012, 06:02 AM

mdiaz - are you really talking about heel & toe (where the brake pedal is involved) or just double-clutch downshifting to get the revs matched (and lose the jerking)?

Pedal spacing on most cars isn't particularly conducive to true heel-toe'ing, and for most street driving the simpler double-clutch is sufficient.

Either way, it's a "feel" thing that comes with practice.

On edit . . . the wider the transmission gear ratios are spaced, the more you have to kick the gas to get the revs matched. In most cars, dropping into 1st from 2nd at any speed above a jog is more trouble than it's really worth.

Norm

kenkartasasmita · 07-24-2012, 10:34 AM

this might help you.

mdiaz0618 · 07-24-2012, 06:26 PM

Norm, yes I'm talking about heel toeing

mdiaz0618 · 07-24-2012, 07:34 PM

and Norm, how do you double clutch when going into a turn?

Norm Peterson · 07-25-2012, 09:02 AM

On the street typically approaching an exit ramp - down one gear before I start to brake, down another just before corner entry and after I've got my braking done. That's in the 5-speed cars, sometimes in my wife's 6-speed car I'll squeeze one more in between depending on conditions. A few tenths of a second on the street means nothing.

If I'm being held up badly enough in the turn to want yet another downshift, it'll be because I won't be moving fast enough for it to upset the chassis balance even if I do get a little clumsy (which still happens once in a while even after as long as I've been driving).

Anybody who claims to get every single downshift perfect with no jerking ever - has a case of selective memory.

Norm

mdiaz0618 · 07-25-2012, 09:10 AM

idk I'm starting to think the camaro wasnt meant for easy heel toeing, im still messing up fml lol, what if you put it in neutral, brake and after the turn put it in 2nd and go on from there?

Norm Peterson · 07-25-2012, 10:41 AM

Ever since Audi got into trouble with "unintended acceleration" (aka "pedal mis-application") back in the mid-1980's, cars have not been set up with H-T in mind. Of all the cars in my driveway now, my wife's Legacy 2.5GT is probably set up for it the best.

I think you need to get the matter of rev-matching down first, and even when done in a perfectly straight line just this part takes a little practice.

1. Clutch in/shift into the neutral gate/clutch out.
2. Kick gas to bring revs up and then get out of the gas.
3. Clutch in/downshift to lower gear/clutch out. Don't wait for the engine revs to start falling - do this while the engine revs are dropping to or slightly through the rpm that the lower gear wants to see at whatever your road speed is.

Even though there are several distinct operations involved, they really just sort of all flow together without much thought after a while.

Coasting in neutral is a poor choice (and may even be illegal in some areas).

Norm

mdiaz0618 · 07-25-2012, 10:44 AM

Thanks norm, can you do this while braking and turning though?

Norm Peterson · 07-25-2012, 11:19 AM

First things first. Straight lines for now.

Yes, it's possible. If you're cornering very hard at all, you have to be smoother. If you're also braking, you also have to get that gas kick done without spiking the pressure you're putting on the brake pedal or taking much pressure off it. You can upset the car otherwise.

I've heard it said that braking is the last skill that fully develops . . . FWIW

Norm

07-22-2012, 05:13 PM	#1
mdiaz0618 Drives: 2012 1LS Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Albany, NY Posts: 52	Heel and Toeing v6 Whats up everyone, kind of a nooby question here, but whenever i heel and toe into 2nd gear, I either 1. give it alot of gas and end up going so slow, or 2. not giving enough and jerking alittle. 3. I give it the right amount of gas and i still jerk. Im practicing my ass off and still cant get it down right, Anybody else on the same boat? How much gas are you suppose to give it when you downshift into 2nd? v6 1LS Thanks

07-24-2012, 06:02 AM	#6
Norm Peterson corner barstool sitter Drives: 08 Mustang GT, 19 WRX Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Eastern Time Zone Posts: 6,990	mdiaz - are you really talking about heel & toe (where the brake pedal is involved) or just double-clutch downshifting to get the revs matched (and lose the jerking)? Pedal spacing on most cars isn't particularly conducive to true heel-toe'ing, and for most street driving the simpler double-clutch is sufficient. Either way, it's a "feel" thing that comes with practice. On edit . . . the wider the transmission gear ratios are spaced, the more you have to kick the gas to get the revs matched. In most cars, dropping into 1st from 2nd at any speed above a jog is more trouble than it's really worth. Norm Last edited by Norm Peterson; 07-24-2012 at 06:15 AM.

07-22-2012, 07:26 PM	#2
DarkneSS Account Suspended Drives: 2010 Camaro 2SS/RS 6MT Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Westchester, New York Posts: 3,715	Wish I could explain, I generally just "feel" it. If I'm going slow and I'm downshifting to 2nd I normally give it a small pulse and that does the trick perfectly. It really depends on the speed. 2nd goes from about 8mph at idle to 65mph at redline so the closer your current speed is to 8mph the less gas you should give it. Like if I'm on a hill stopped waiting for a light, when it turns green I'll roll in neutral if its steep enough then press the clutch in and put it in 2nd. When I hit 8 mph I let off the clutch with no gas and the gear engages smoothly. Now lets say I'm rolling on flat ground same situation with the car in 2nd and the clutch in, and I'm going say 20 mph, I'll give her about 20-25% throttle. If I'm going 45-65 mph and I want to go into 2nd, which are likely race like situations, I'll give it a minimum of 60-80% throttle to get that perfect downshift with no jerk. How many miles do you have? You probably just need practice. My best advice, start by giving it more gas than you think you need and work your way down into finding the sweet spot. You won't cause too much damage giving it more gas but you will if you aren't giving enough and you jerk it, which means you're bogging. Lol I hope I helped even a tiny bit, very hard to explain over the internet.

07-22-2012, 07:33 PM	#3
mdiaz0618 Drives: 2012 1LS Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Albany, NY Posts: 52	haha wow, thanks bro, yeah I have about 3700 miles on it, I was driving to Jersey today and all of a sudden i was thinking to myself, why the hell do i keep jerking into 2nd going into turns and stuff lol

07-22-2012, 07:37 PM	#4
mdiaz0618 Drives: 2012 1LS Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Albany, NY Posts: 52	Alot of people say that you dont have to heel toe in everyday driving situations, but how are you ever going to turn without doing it? haha what part of NY are you?

07-24-2012, 06:26 PM	#8
mdiaz0618 Drives: 2012 1LS Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Albany, NY Posts: 52	Norm, yes I'm talking about heel toeing

07-24-2012, 07:34 PM	#9
mdiaz0618 Drives: 2012 1LS Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Albany, NY Posts: 52	and Norm, how do you double clutch when going into a turn?

07-25-2012, 09:02 AM	#10
Norm Peterson corner barstool sitter Drives: 08 Mustang GT, 19 WRX Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Eastern Time Zone Posts: 6,990	On the street typically approaching an exit ramp - down one gear before I start to brake, down another just before corner entry and after I've got my braking done. That's in the 5-speed cars, sometimes in my wife's 6-speed car I'll squeeze one more in between depending on conditions. A few tenths of a second on the street means nothing. If I'm being held up badly enough in the turn to want yet another downshift, it'll be because I won't be moving fast enough for it to upset the chassis balance even if I do get a little clumsy (which still happens once in a while even after as long as I've been driving). Anybody who claims to get every single downshift perfect with no jerking ever - has a case of selective memory. Norm

07-25-2012, 09:10 AM	#11
mdiaz0618 Drives: 2012 1LS Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Albany, NY Posts: 52	idk I'm starting to think the camaro wasnt meant for easy heel toeing, im still messing up fml lol, what if you put it in neutral, brake and after the turn put it in 2nd and go on from there?

07-25-2012, 10:41 AM	#12
Norm Peterson corner barstool sitter Drives: 08 Mustang GT, 19 WRX Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Eastern Time Zone Posts: 6,990	Ever since Audi got into trouble with "unintended acceleration" (aka "pedal mis-application") back in the mid-1980's, cars have not been set up with H-T in mind. Of all the cars in my driveway now, my wife's Legacy 2.5GT is probably set up for it the best. I think you need to get the matter of rev-matching down first, and even when done in a perfectly straight line just this part takes a little practice. 1. Clutch in/shift into the neutral gate/clutch out. 2. Kick gas to bring revs up and then get out of the gas. 3. Clutch in/downshift to lower gear/clutch out. Don't wait for the engine revs to start falling - do this while the engine revs are dropping to or slightly through the rpm that the lower gear wants to see at whatever your road speed is. Even though there are several distinct operations involved, they really just sort of all flow together without much thought after a while. Coasting in neutral is a poor choice (and may even be illegal in some areas). Norm

07-25-2012, 10:44 AM	#13
mdiaz0618 Drives: 2012 1LS Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Albany, NY Posts: 52	Thanks norm, can you do this while braking and turning though?

07-25-2012, 11:19 AM	#14
Norm Peterson corner barstool sitter Drives: 08 Mustang GT, 19 WRX Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Eastern Time Zone Posts: 6,990	First things first. Straight lines for now. Yes, it's possible. If you're cornering very hard at all, you have to be smoother. If you're also braking, you also have to get that gas kick done without spiking the pressure you're putting on the brake pedal or taking much pressure off it. You can upset the car otherwise. I've heard it said that braking is the last skill that fully develops . . . FWIW Norm