Who Broke Something?

[Beauwulf]

Originally Posted by mtcwby

I'm running my stock rims with the original PZero 275's on the front rims and PZero 305's on my rear rims and ran it hard on the Pfadt course and never had a bit of trouble. I ran 30 psi cold tire pressure all the way around and checked the tire temps after coming off the track each session and the inner edge was at 140 degrees and outer edges were at 130 degrees...perfect! The tire pressure is not as important as running as high a pressure as possible while keeping the inner edge of the tread slightly higher than the outer edge. Then you are assured that you are gripping with the whole width of the tire. If the outer edge is higher, then you know that your tires are overinflated.
So if anyone is worried about this combination, worry no further.

Your setup is a little different than what I was concerned about. Your tires are a wider tread on the stock 8/9" rims. The tire that rolled off had too narrow a tread (295/25 from the looks of the tire) for the 11" wheel he was using. It was stretched out a bit too much. Mine (285/30) are also stretched a bit on 10" rims but not as bad as his were.

I would still like to know how much air he was running in them. Like, did he lower the pressure to run the drag strip and didn't up the pressures for the road course kind of thing? When I get to turn 17 at Sebring next month at 130 MPH, I would like to be re-assured that a similar failure won't occur.

[Doc]

I was trying to see what size he was running but the pics don't show it. He's running a Continental Extreme tire and judging from the pictures it looks like a 22" rim. Continental makes a 285/30ZR22 and a 295/25ZR22 tire in the Extreme model. The 285 is designed for a 9.5-10.5" wide rim with 10" being ideal. The 295 is designed for a 10-11" wide rim with 10.5" being ideal.

The 295 should have been okay as long as it was properly inflated; the 285 is stretched pretty far if that's what he was using.

Beauwulf I know a 285/30-19 is designed for 9.5-10.5" with 10" being ideal. What size rim are you running? And you shouldn't "up" the pressure for road course. The tires heat up considerably under the loads of a road course and the tire pressure can increase as much as 15-20 lbs depending on conditions and how hard you're pushing them. For road course start at 30 lbs. and go as low as 25 lbs if necessary. Mtcwby had a nifty little laser thermometer to measure his tire temps when he came off the track. I found one like it at HarborFreight on sale for $25.99 which I'm going to use.

[Beauwulf]

Originally Posted by Doc

I was trying to see what size he was running but the pics don't show it. He's running a Continental Extreme tire and judging from the pictures it looks like a 22" rim. Continental makes a 285/30ZR22 and a 295/25ZR22 tire in the Extreme model. The 285 is designed for a 9.5-10.5" wide rim with 10" being ideal. The 295 is designed for a 10-11" wide rim with 10.5" being ideal.

The 295 should have been okay as long as it was properly inflated; the 285 is stretched pretty far if that's what he was using.

Beauwulf I know a 285/30-19 is designed for 9.5-10.5" with 10" being ideal. What size rim are you running? And you shouldn't "up" the pressure for road course. The tires heat up considerably under the loads of a road course and the tire pressure can increase as much as 15-20 lbs depending on conditions and how hard you're pushing them. For road course start at 30 lbs. and go as low as 25 lbs if necessary. Mtcwby had a nifty little laser thermometer to measure his tire temps when he came off the track. I found one like it at HarborFreight on sale for $25.99 which I'm going to use.

Hey Doc... I know tire pressure increases as the tire gets warmer. Setting the tire for a "target" pressure at temp is race 101. Different tires like different pressures. Most target 40-45 PSI at operating temp (say 140-160 F).

My comment about increasing pressure for the road would seem to be relevant since it was likely a low pressure failure he suffered. I thought he might have lowered his pressures to run the drag strip (as many do... myself included) and didn't get a chance to up the pressures again for the road course...

[Doc]

Originally Posted by Beauwulf

Hey Doc... I know tire pressure increases as the tire gets warmer. Setting the tire for a "target" pressure at temp is race 101. Different tires like different pressures. Most target 40-45 PSI at operating temp (say 140-160 F).

My comment about increasing pressure for the road would seem to be relevant since it was likely a low pressure failure he suffered. I thought he might have lowered his pressures to run the drag strip (as many do... myself included) and didn't get a chance to up the pressures again for the road course...

I'm trying to remember when this happened; I believe it was in the morning session of the Track Attack and at that time they hadn't run any drags yet if I remember right. If anything he may have been over-inflated. I remember one guy was in the staging area and telling me he had his tires set at 45 psi cold! I told him to lower them and suggested he talk to Aaron Pfadt who was about 30ft away to verify and Aaron told him to lower them to 30 I think it was. I don't run drags normally; what pressure do you guys lower your tires to?

I wish I knew the exact numbers of what this guy was running.

[Beauwulf]

Originally Posted by Doc

I'm trying to remember when this happened; I believe it was in the morning session of the Track Attack and at that time they hadn't run any drags yet if I remember right. If anything he may have been over-inflated. I remember one guy was in the staging area and telling me he had his tires set at 45 psi cold! I told him to lower them and suggested he talk to Aaron Pfadt who was about 30ft away to verify and Aaron told him to lower them to 30 I think it was. I don't run drags normally; what pressure do you guys lower your tires to?

I wish I knew the exact numbers of what this guy was running.

On the 20" PZero's I used 28 cold but heated the tire a bit so it was about 30 at the line. With my Hankook's I've run once with them at 32 cold and heated them... a bunch! LOL! Both stuck well off the line.

I ran my new tire wheel setup at Homestead but, due to a brake pad shuddering issue, only managed to get my tires "warm". I'm sure I will get some heat in them at Sebring and work on pressures and temps at that time. I'm really just trying to avoid an issue like this when I get there.

[Steve]

It looks like you guys are breaking things due to add ons? My car is still stock with exception of a CAI intake and I have snapped the output shaft in the tranny (last year) and this weekend I stripped the rear end. It's at the dealer for review. This car has never seen a straight strip. With these issues at stock I am not sure I will put anything in it to pump it up.

[Beauwulf]

Originally Posted by Steve

It looks like you guys are breaking things due to add ons? My car is still stock with exception of a CAI intake and I have snapped the output shaft in the tranny (last year) and this weekend I stripped the rear end. It's at the dealer for review. This car has never seen a straight strip. With these issues at stock I am not sure I will put anything in it to pump it up.

Maybe some snuck some "Dragonbane" in your trunk... LOL!

[Doc]

Originally Posted by Beauwulf

On the 20" PZero's I used 28 cold but heated the tire a bit so it was about 30 at the line. With my Hankook's I've run once with them at 32 cold and heated them... a bunch! LOL! Both stuck well off the line.

I ran my new tire wheel setup at Homestead but, due to a brake pad shuddering issue, only managed to get my tires "warm". I'm sure I will get some heat in them at Sebring and work on pressures and temps at that time. I'm really just trying to avoid an issue like this when I get there.

I have the Hankook Ventus V12 Evo 110's. I lowered them to 25 cold at the track and the car stuck like glue. Might have been a touch soft at the beginning but in the second session the handling was definitely solid. As long as you're 25-30 cold you should be just fine. A 285/30 is dead-on for a 10" rim so you shouldn't have any problems.

[Mark H]

If your tires are nitrogen filled will you still get the big increase in tire pressure on the road course?

[Beauwulf]

Thermal stability is improved by about 20% using nitrogen though I personally think there's WAY too much "hype" associated with it's use. We've used "dry" nitrogen in aircraft tires forever to keep from corroding the wheels. Other than that, the only real benefit you might see for street use is less air pressure (shop air) loss from the oxygen leeching through the tire material and lower moisture content.

Don't even get me started about "nitrogen enriched" fuel! If they wanna "enrich" it with something, how about some O2 to increase performance!

[Camaro_Corvette]

Originally Posted by Mark H

If your stock and break something at the track during camarofest there are plenty of witnesses to void your warranty :(

All that depends on your dealer.

[mtcwby]

Originally Posted by Beauwulf

Your setup is a little different than what I was concerned about. Your tires are a wider tread on the stock 8/9" rims. The tire that rolled off had too narrow a tread (295/25 from the looks of the tire) for the 11" wheel he was using. It was stretched out a bit too much. Mine (285/30) are also stretched a bit on 10" rims but not as bad as his were.

I would still like to know how much air he was running in them. Like, did he lower the pressure to run the drag strip and didn't up the pressures for the road course kind of thing? When I get to turn 17 at Sebring next month at 130 MPH, I would like to be re-assured that a similar failure won't occur.

If you want to be sure, just put some 305's on your rims and then you'll have some peace of mind. Better to spend the $500-600 on tires that what you will spend if you roll the bead off the rim at high speed, especially if there's a concrete wall next to you when it happens.

Originally Posted by Doc

I have the Hankook Ventus V12 Evo 110's. I lowered them to 25 cold at the track and the car stuck like glue. Might have been a touch soft at the beginning but in the second session the handling was definitely solid. As long as you're 25-30 cold you should be just fine. A 285/30 is dead-on for a 10" rim so you shouldn't have any problems.

You guys are way off track, it's not the pressures you should be looking at. You need to run as high a pressure as possible while keeping the temperatures of the tread slightly higher at the inside of the tread compared to the outside of the tread. It will vary greatly from alot of things, i.e. tire brand, size, driving style, etc, etc. But if you have the temps right then you are good to go. Start with the recommended tire pressure and do a few laps, come in and check the temps, then lower the pressure a little at a time until you have reached the right temps. Then let your tires cool overnight and check the pressures in the morning. Then you will know what to start with the next time you go to the track.

[Driveshaftshop]

Originally Posted by Redemption

Doc, I talked to "the other" guy who did the same thing with his CF driveshaft. It was Conrad, with the Hankook/Blu808 Drift car.

They managed to cobble it together and keep racing, but later got it replaced. Theirs is holding fine now.

Nice looking pieces, thats for sure!

Jason

Just for the record the Carbon Fiber shaft that Conrad from Hancook broke
last year at a Drifting event (not at the fest) was manufactured from PST (PST manufactures shafts for other vendors on this board) it was not a DSS product. After it broke he has now gone to both our Driveshaft and 1400Hp axles and has not had a problem.

1. only one Driveshaft shop Carbon shaft spun at the event.


Just to set the record straight only one of the Carbon Shafts we made broke at the event, one other did break before the event (it was Garth (corrected sorry) and we overnighted a aluminum shaft to him no charge so he could be at the event)

Doc's shaft did spin at the road event, Both myself-my son and a local sport compact shop managed to repair the shaft so Doc could get home, I also had agreed to pay Bonderant for the work on Doc's car (even though the Carbon shaft was given to him for no cost, he was testing)

At the track i had a theory what the problem was but as it turns out the Tube looks like it is the problem, the company that made the tube said they may have used too much release agent (the tube is made by being wound around a steel tube and a pam like substance is sprayed on the tube so it releases off it) the problem is it got into the fiber and the glue did not ad-hear to the tube like it should. We sent the sample 1st to them and then it was sent to 3M for further evaluation. We have made over 20 Carbon shaft with a larger 3-3/4 tube (the Camaro used 3-3/8) with out any issues and is holding fine in several 1000+ all out drag cars running sub 1.20 60ft times so we know the process were doing is correct and look forward to the full Analysis from both the tubing manufacturer and 3M the glue manufacturer.

I will post this info up on the drivetrain board (i had asked Doc to send me pictures of the bond but have not received them yet for this post) after its all figured out.

All company's are at one time are going to have some sort of problem. This is something new to us so i don't have answers like i would with any other driveshaft or Axle but I feel with what happened we went above and beyond by overnighting driveshafts to both Gabe and Doc so there cars would not be down (done at no charge) I also agreed to pay to the clutch pulled out of Doc's car when he and other thought that was the problem. We will be more than willing to exchange/Credit them for what ever they feel comfortable with, We here at DSS are committed to excellence. i know this went on a little long but i felt the info listed here needed to be show in a truthful manor.

Frank

[mtcwby]

Originally Posted by Driveshaftshop

Just for the record the Carbon Fiber shaft that Conrad from Hancook broke
last year at a Drifting event (not at the fest) was manufactured from PST (PST manufactures shafts for other vendors on this board) it was not a DSS product. After it broke he has now gone to both our Driveshaft and 1400Hp axles and has not had a problem.

1. only one Driveshaft shop Carbon shaft spun at the event.


Just to set the record straight only one of the Carbon Shafts we made broke at the event, one other did break before the event (it was Gabe and we overnighted a aluminum shaft to him no charge so he could be at the event)

Doc's shaft did spin at the road event, Both myself-my son and a local sport compact shop managed to repair the shaft so Doc could get home, I also had agreed to pay Bonderant for the work on Doc's car (even though the Carbon shaft was given to him for no cost, he was testing)

At the track i had a theory what the problem was but as it turns out the Tube looks like it is the problem, the company that made the tube said they may have used too much release agent (the tube is made by being wound around a steel tube and a pam like substance is sprayed on the tube so it releases off it) the problem is it got into the fiber and the glue did not ad-hear to the tube like it should. We sent the sample 1st to them and then it was sent to 3M for further evaluation. We have made over 20 Carbon shaft with a larger 3-3/4 tube (the Camaro used 3-3/8) with out any issues and is holding fine in several 1000+ all out drag cars running sub 1.20 60ft times so we know the process were doing is correct and look forward to the full Analysis from both the tubing manufacturer and 3M the glue manufacturer.

I will post this info up on the drivetrain board (i had asked Doc to send me pictures of the bond but have not received them yet for this post) after its all figured out.

All company's are at one time are going to have some sort of problem. This is something new to us so i don't have answers like i would with any other driveshaft or Axle but I feel with what happened we went above and beyond by overnighting driveshafts to both Gabe and Doc so there cars would not be down (done at no charge) I also agreed to pay to the clutch pulled out of Doc's car when he and other thought that was the problem. We will be more than willing to exchange/Credit them for what ever they feel comfortable with, We here at DSS are committed to excellence. i know this went on a little long but i felt the info listed here needed to be show in a truthful manor.

Frank

That would be Garth (Blue70SS) not Gabe that had the same problem as Doc, but before C5FestII. Thanks Frank for getting a replacement aluminum shaft to Garth so he could make it to the Fest with the rest of us. Not alot of companies would bend over backwards to make a bad situation into a good one, like you did. And thanks for getting my replacement 1400 HP half shafts out to me as quick as you have.
Thanks again Frank,
Don Schultz