Whats Going To Happen????

[radz28]

Originally Posted by thePill

You can watch the Boss 302 race every month in Grand Am, they will eventually hit every track this year. Multimatic did help tune this car from the Multimatic car from last year... Kind of like On The Job Training... I think the Boss could take the GTR on the Streets of Willow because it is a slower track and limits top speed... I guess the Boss Laguna Seca is set to be at least a second faster than the Boss 302.

If the car performs at Laguna, I expect it to do just as good if not better on other US courses... The gap between the GT500 and Z06C was about 6 seconds but on Willow it was about 4 seconds. Laguna is a faster track as far as MPH go, Willow is much tighter where the Z06 lost 13mph average and the GT500 loses about 10mph. Thats where the time is made up... The GTR is faster than the Z06C at Willow but 3 seconds slower at LS...

Is Grand Am 100% stock? I simply don't know, so I wanted to ask. All I know is I would be very interested in seeing a 100% OEM car go toe-to-toe to another on the same track, by the same drive, on the same day, under the same conditions. I work in a laboratory and if it isn't as scientific as possible, I don't give it much credit (no- I'm not smart enough to be a scientist). I'm just saying that IRS is going to be an advantage when the pavement gets rougher and it's even more necessary to put the power down.

I can't almost compare a GTR because it's AWD. I'm also not taking anything away from the car. Okay - it's more because I think it's cheating a little, but at the same time, OEM-to-OEM, it beats Z06; no arguing.

You know - if we're going to compare the Boss to an M3, I'd like to hear more about the rest of the dynamics of the cars. Any competent car-guy can make a car that handles GREAT; it's another thing, though, to make it drivable on the street, and comfortable. If the Boss can deliver equal dynamics to the M3 on the street, I give it as much credit as I can. It's a different story, though, if it's loud, rattles, rides and bucks rough over the bumps, etc. I know every car gets little rattles and squeaks here and there; that's not what I mean. Also - Boss is a racecar, more-or-less - no? The M3 is not. I do want to learn more to draw my own conclusions better, but all the hype is really for the nought (almost), if we aren't comparing apples-to-apples; it's starting to look more and more like that, OMHO.

Originally Posted by thePill

The Boss will not do this good on a longer track where long straights and top speed is paramount, like Daytona...

Edit: I doesn't have to add up, in road racing there are far too many variables to calculate... The GTR beat the Z06 at Willow and it outweighed it by almost 800lbs... the Mustang should not be compared to a Corvette... It was made to compete with the M3 and it wins... by alot...

GTR is AWD, and with the superior PS2s on the Carbon, it's a faster car. I don't have the times handy, but AWD clearly helps the GTR. The bottom line is faster, but that doesn't really make me consider it a better car, per se. I need to qualify that better, lol.

Originally Posted by garagelogic

Does anybody truly think Chevy is going to "step up their game" and create a Camaro of any variety that out-performs the Z06 Corvette? Not anytime soon.

Now, when the next generation Corvette comes out, and if it has even better performance than the C6 versions produced today (which one would expect), then the game might change.

I think there's a chance of that; maybe not the Carbon-type, but a "standard" (if you can call Z06 standard...) Zed. Do I think ZL1 will? I know I'd like it to, but a smaller tire, with a lot more weight, and so-on...

Originally Posted by GrnMchin

No never. Unless they repeat 84 and the GN. There are more then a few that will look to the Mustang over the Vette for price and cost of ownership and will settle for a car that comes very close to the Vette this a better overall cost, if GM doesn't fill the gap.

Good points. Aren't a lot of 'Vette customers return customers, though? I ask only because I'm not sure it would be that big of a base that would consider anything other than 'Vette. That's only a guess on my part.

[GrnMchin]

Originally Posted by tjbusa

If I were to invest the kind money a new boss will cost, and put the difference into my SS Camaro, I'd have a full blown race car.

It ranges 41-47k and for a factory race car that very nicely priced. If you have the talent and time the aftermarket world will always be better for moding, but the Manufacture has to deal w/ the Goverment regs and that's something the after market world to some extent doesn't have.

[GrnMchin]

Yes allot of Vette owners return to buy Vettes, but as time moves on their seems to be more 30-40 y/o gen that don't want the 50 y/o Vette sigma or the extra cost, because it's a Vette. Something that many of my friends who are Vette owner seem to frequently complain about is, the over all cost just cause it Say's Corvette.

[nards444]

cant see GM making a camaro faster than a Z06 they would market the vette out of competition. really makes no sense. Yeah I agree with 500lbs less HP and not as aerodynamic theres no way

[thePill]

Originally Posted by radz28

Is Grand Am 100% stock? I simply don't know, so I wanted to ask. All I know is I would be very interested in seeing a 100% OEM car go toe-to-toe to another on the same track, by the same drive, on the same day, under the same conditions. I work in a laboratory and if it isn't as scientific as possible, I don't give it much credit (no- I'm not smart enough to be a scientist). I'm just saying that IRS is going to be an advantage when the pavement gets rougher and it's even more necessary to put the power down.

Grand Am is not 100% stock, I have a link to the rule book and will post it later. They are as close to stock as you can get though. Right now, the M3 and Boss has to carry a minimum race weight of 3300lbs, everything else is lighter. The M3 has two first place wins and the Boss has two 2nds place finishes, all different teams so its not just the drivers. IRS has an advantage if there are potholes and bumps on the track but if a track has potholes and bumps, the track will most likely be removed from the circuit (thats why Nurburgring lost a majority of is races). The live axle puts down more power than an IRS but seeing now that the LRA can do the work on a track that an IRS can, the arguement for racing is over for that class. Drag racers hate IRS but they will love CB IRS because of the trailing arms.

You know - if we're going to compare the Boss to an M3, I'd like to hear more about the rest of the dynamics of the cars. Any competent car-guy can make a car that handles GREAT; it's another thing, though, to make it drivable on the street, and comfortable. If the Boss can deliver equal dynamics to the M3 on the street, I give it as much credit as I can. It's a different story, though, if it's loud, rattles, rides and bucks rough over the bumps, etc. I know every car gets little rattles and squeaks here and there; that's not what I mean. Also - Boss is a racecar, more-or-less - no? The M3 is not. I do want to learn more to draw my own conclusions better, but all the hype is really for the nought (almost), if we aren't comparing apples-to-apples; it's starting to look more and more like that, OMHO.

Comfort and Competition do not go hand and hand. You cannot road race with leather seats and soft springs. The comfort the Z type IRS BMW uses is not comfortable when you use stiff springs installed. The Boss is a racecar, the M3 is a race car too. the M3 is a specialty car, low volume and raced down by BMW's M division (like SVT). It was never intended to be a luxury car as most Americans seem to identify it with.

GTR is AWD, and with the superior PS2s on the Carbon, it's a faster car. I don't have the times handy, but AWD clearly helps the GTR. The bottom line is faster, but that doesn't really make me consider it a better car, per se. I need to qualify that better, lol.

The Z06C destroys the GTR on Laguna Seca because it uses its top speed and ability to get there to do so. Streets of Willow is the smaller of the 2 Willow tracks, top speed is hindered and the GTR takes advantage of that. Even the GT500 gained some ground there on the Z06C.

I think there's a chance of that; maybe not the Carbon-type, but a "standard" (if you can call Z06 standard...) Zed. Do I think ZL1 will? I know I'd like it to, but a smaller tire, with a lot more weight, and so-on...

What it comes down to is there is a $40,000 car out there that makes me question "why pay more". I am however a huge track buff..

[thePill]

It depends on what the SCCA and NASA end up classing the Boss 302 at but if it remains in the GT's class it will dominate everything including the 5.0 GT's. Thats the main reason that the SCCA guy's are buying these things out... Even if I waited to buy a Boss, I doubt I would have got one...

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by GrnMchin

Well the numbers said it does and its an 06 ZO6 not current model. You work for GM and I would expect you to say something to that effect. Up the game or fall behind or did they lie, because then you could use that same argument over the number the ZO6 produced or even the ZL1 when they come out. The numbers don't lie it's a impressive car and Ford has seemed to have done their home work. 4 out of 5 cars I own are GM and never have owned a Ford, but will acknowledge the fact the Boss is a very impressive car.

Won't argue with the numbers or the drivers. And I'm not at all critical of the Boss. A very good effort by my friends at FoMoCo and a tip of the hat to the effort.

But if you REALLY think that a live axle car carrying 500 pounds more weight and 60 pounds less with less brakes even in the base Z06 is faster on any track, then you are running your car on sunshine and rainbows with the gasoline. All I'm saying is regardless of how good the Boss is, and it is good, I don't know how you pull that off. Now if you want to have a discussion on the Boss being under rated? or Ford putting in a "sleeper motor" then we can go there too. And if you want to talk about the fact that the Z06 stock is so extremely under tired and how easy it is to spin the tires coming out of a corner and not putt that 60 HP to the pavement then we can have that discussion. The Z06 is a beast regardless of how good the Boss is, and I'll say it again, the Boss is good. Let me be even more clear, the Boss is an IRS and half decent interior from being a truly world class car.

So my comments aren't as a GM employee, they are as an engineer wondering how you can pull this rabit out of the hat.

[GrnMchin]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Won't argue with the numbers or the drivers. And I'm not at all critical of the Boss. A very good effort by my friends at FoMoCo and a tip of the hat to the effort.

But if you REALLY think that a live axle car carrying 500 pounds more weight and 60 pounds less with less brakes even in the base Z06 is faster on any track, then you are running your car on sunshine and rainbows with the gasoline. All I'm saying is regardless of how good the Boss is, and it is good, I don't know how you pull that off. Now if you want to have a discussion on the Boss being under rated? or Ford putting in a "sleeper motor" then we can go there too. And if you want to talk about the fact that the Z06 stock is so extremely under tired and how easy it is to spin the tires coming out of a corner and not putt that 60 HP to the pavement then we can have that discussion. The Z06 is a beast regardless of how good the Boss is, and I'll say it again, the Boss is good. Let me be even more clear, the Boss is an IRS and half decent interior from being a truly world class car.

So my comments aren't as a GM employee, they are as an engineer wondering how you can pull this rabit out of the hat.

K, I will engage on the friendly side of course. I have never said the ZO6 is a bad car I would own an 04-11 or GS in a heart beat. I think that people often think that a current car (Ford) that out passes a car w/ 5 y/o tech is ground breaking and is some how a miracle. Really? The Boss is built for the track plain and simple if you think that the numbers are not fake and based on unicorn pee then prove me wrong. (I don't think a LA car w/ 500 lbs can't compete w/ a ZO6) with the right set up any car can. I don't have a lot to discredit that they didn't use a sleeper, but show me the evidence that they did.

[thePill]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Won't argue with the numbers or the drivers. And I'm not at all critical of the Boss. A very good effort by my friends at FoMoCo and a tip of the hat to the effort.

But if you REALLY think that a live axle car carrying 500 pounds more weight and 60 pounds less with less brakes even in the base Z06 is faster on any track, then you are running your car on sunshine and rainbows with the gasoline. All I'm saying is regardless of how good the Boss is, and it is good, I don't know how you pull that off. Now if you want to have a discussion on the Boss being under rated? or Ford putting in a "sleeper motor" then we can go there too. And if you want to talk about the fact that the Z06 stock is so extremely under tired and how easy it is to spin the tires coming out of a corner and not putt that 60 HP to the pavement then we can have that discussion. The Z06 is a beast regardless of how good the Boss is, and I'll say it again, the Boss is good. Let me be even more clear, the Boss is an IRS and half decent interior from being a truly world class car.

So my comments aren't as a GM employee, they are as an engineer wondering how you can pull this rabit out of the hat.

The current Z06C is still 2.79 seconds faster than the Boss 302 at Laguna Seca. The Boss was dyno'd at 416rwhp so it is underrated some and the torque curve was close to flat. When tuned correctly, the LRA has no problems on a road course and it seems that Ford did it correctly. The solid axle is almost history, the new IRS is coming soon.. I will miss the LRA...

PS.. Did you see my ZL1 poster ad, I would very much like GM to use it...

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by thePill

The current Z06C is still 2.79 seconds faster than the Boss 302 at Laguna Seca. The Boss was dyno'd at 416rwhp so it is underrated some and the torque curve was close to flat. When tuned correctly, the LRA has no problems on a road course and it seems that Ford did it correctly. The solid axle is almost history, the new IRS is coming soon.. I will miss the LRA...

PS.. Did you see my ZL1 poster ad, I would very much like GM to use it...

No I didn't. Can you share a link to it?

[thePill]

Originally Posted by Number 3

No I didn't. Can you share a link to it?

This poster ad will get those ZL1's moving..

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showth...08#post2932608

[radz28]

Originally Posted by GrnMchin

Yes allot of Vette owners return to buy Vettes, but as time moves on their seems to be more 30-40 y/o gen that don't want the 50 y/o Vette sigma or the extra cost, because it's a Vette. Something that many of my friends who are Vette owner seem to frequently complain about is, the over all cost just cause it Say's Corvette.

Ok - I don't have my finger on the 'Vette pulse. I just remember seeing a lot of customer input put into the last couple generations, and a lot were return customers. I'm not clear on the extra cost, exactly, because I believe it's about the single best value in the American car market. That's JMVHO, but I think I could make a good argument for it. I can totally see the stigma, though. It's weird, because I see well-to-do people who can afford a car without that stigma, and that are "higher class", but don't perform better, nor are the as good a value, and those people still go with 'Vette. I understand what you're saying you see though.

Originally Posted by thePill

Grand Am is not 100% stock, I have a link to the rule book and will post it later. They are as close to stock as you can get though. Right now, the M3 and Boss has to carry a minimum race weight of 3300lbs, everything else is lighter. The M3 has two first place wins and the Boss has two 2nds place finishes, all different teams so its not just the drivers. IRS has an advantage if there are potholes and bumps on the track but if a track has potholes and bumps, the track will most likely be removed from the circuit (thats why Nurburgring lost a majority of is races). The live axle puts down more power than an IRS but seeing now that the LRA can do the work on a track that an IRS can, the arguement for racing is over for that class. Drag racers hate IRS but they will love CB IRS because of the trailing arms.

Comfort and Competition do not go hand and hand. You cannot road race with leather seats and soft springs. The comfort the Z type IRS BMW uses is not comfortable when you use stiff springs installed. The Boss is a racecar, the M3 is a race car too. the M3 is a specialty car, low volume and raced down by BMW's M division (like SVT). It was never intended to be a luxury car as most Americans seem to identify it with.

The Z06C destroys the GTR on Laguna Seca because it uses its top speed and ability to get there to do so. Streets of Willow is the smaller of the 2 Willow tracks, top speed is hindered and the GTR takes advantage of that. Even the GT500 gained some ground there on the Z06C.

What it comes down to is there is a $40,000 car out there that makes me question "why pay more". I am however a huge track buff..

My point about the question about Grand Am being stock is because I miss the connection you seemed to be trying to make between performance and a race car in the earlier post. I don't have an opinion on a race-Boss, nor would I make one because I have no interest. My point is that it's one track that we've seen the Boss dominate the M3; the point almost becomes moot, and is certainly loses domination if it doesn't go faster at other tracks. If the Boss loses more weight and runs on different tires, it's not the same car as I'm discussing, and what I thought the point of the comparison was. Regarding my comments on the IRS vs. SRA - again - I don't care to comment on race cars - I'm talking driving on the street. If we're only going to talk about a race track, I don't think it's fair to compare a track-only car to a total-performance street car, like M3. I understand the dynamics and efficiencies and deficiencies of both styles of suspensions, and with the exception of drag racing, I think IRS is just plain better. Not all tracks are perfect and IRS will just cope with the irregularities better and make better use of the power.

Comfort and Competition for a street car have to co-exist. It we're going to compare the Boss to M3, I don't see any validity in only arguing one aspect of the car. Then, you completely ignore any other deficiencies of the car and the comparison loses any credibility for me. Building a car for the track, with no regard is a lot easier than engineering a car to do both. Sure - you're going to be make concessions for both aspects, but the bottom line is to sell cars - I thought... M3 drivers can do both, in total comfort. Take ZR1, IMO - some people consider it a supercar. I don't think it's a supercar because it lacks all of the extra hooplah and utter vulgarity that Aston Martins, Ferraris, Lambos, etc. have that go with the performance. The exteriors and interiors reek of all sorts of exotic materials and designs. SURE - ZR1 absolutely performs better than a lot of supercars, but it isn't over-the-top, as a whole, like them. That's how I think of the Boss. The Boss might have the performance, but it's still not in the same league as M3. It has the comfort and aminities, yet still has outstanding performance, which the Boss can't do, because it has to be a stripped car in order to have that performance. Technologically, except for the engine, I don't think it holds a candle to M3. It's not sophisicated in any way. Manually tunable shocks, are cool, but not exactly high-tech; I'd consider Magnetic Ride Control high-tech (and the like).

I don't see the point about M3 being a race car either... Why would a race car come with all the content and comfort that it does? If BMW were making a race car, they would eliminate all that stuff. Why does a race car have navigation? Will the driver lose his way around a track? Why does a race car have a premium stereo with HD? Will he get bored from hearing the V8 sing at 8400 RPMs? Does he need Bluetooth to communicate with the crew chief? Does the Boss have such options? I see a nice CD radio with cloth Recaro seats... Not the same.

You comments about Z06 being faster than the GTR at one track, and then vise versa for another is exactly my point for the Boss. I want to see more comparisons at other tracks, because while I know those two cars are very comparable, I don't know that I believe the Boss is on the same level as M3. I'd like to know, though. I still won't get past my earlier points about it being a factory race car while M3 is not.

Our perspectives are different. Though I'm an enthusiast, I'm not a track junkie. I'm not in the market for a race car, which is what I think the Boss is. Comparing a race car that doesn't have to offer comfort and all the amenities is not a good comparison. That M3 can be tweeked, too, and probably crush a Boss if it were stripped and focused like the Boss. If you focus is only racing the car you're looking at, I can't fault anyone looking for the best value. I don't know that I'd say the M3 deserves the prices they fetch, completely, but I'm not interested in that car either.

It comes down to what you want the car for. I'm not looking for a race car. I want a car, like the M3, than can do both great. While the Boss might be exceptional on the track, that's not what most people want or look for. I still maintain this comparison is not exactly apples-to-apples.

Originally Posted by thePill

The current Z06C is still 2.79 seconds faster than the Boss 302 at Laguna Seca. The Boss was dyno'd at 416rwhp so it is underrated some and the torque curve was close to flat. When tuned correctly, the LRA has no problems on a road course and it seems that Ford did it correctly. The solid axle is almost history, the new IRS is coming soon.. I will miss the LRA...

PS.. Did you see my ZL1 poster ad, I would very much like GM to use it...

I like that poster, lol.

[thePill]

The M3 is still only a limited run of a performance 3 series, they only produce around 5000 a year. The older M3's were at one time, stripped 3 series BMW's, although the new ones keep the luxury and tech gadgets. The M3 is a great car, I'm not a big fan of BMW, I own a 320i and it will be the last one I ever buy. The price to fix these cars is ridiculous but the little luxuries are nice. If most people are concerned about street performance then a simple smart car will do but racing is a whole different story.

BMW takes pride in their racing program along with most other German car companies. The fact that a Mustang is a threat is a big deal to them, so much so, that BMW threatened to pull their advertisements from Motor Trend after the GT vs. M3. The heart of any vehicle is the motor and now that the Boss is almost a spitting image of the 4.0 M engine, it has their attention... Ford can't do what BMW can all at once, and if you look back at the M3, it wasn't always like this. Ford is taking small bites at BMW, Grand Am is intense, where Ford still uses the LRA and is very, very good. American's typically don't compare the two because sadly, American's typically don't know better. Come the next redesign though... I hope that American's will stand behind an American car...

If I want IRS I can always retrofit Control Blade in my car, the trailing arms will bolt right up... and someday I might do that.. But the thing that bothers me the most is that people who scream performance usually can't even tell you how to spell the word. A live axle is currently outperforming its intended competition and those people who are "racers" still continue to ignore the LRA because it simply isn't mainstream. There are many live axle Mustangs over here that run circles around said IRS systems and for the most part, the Germans I work with said that it is amazing. It truly is amazing but will still be ignored by people that either hate the Mustang or people that really don't know anything (usually are one in the same).

I can almost guarantee that there will be CBIRS haters when it comes to America, not because it is different but because its on a Mustang... Until someone can show me that the traditional coil-out, 4 link IRS can out handle/manuver a 3 link live rear axle in this price range and class... I will continue to question IRS. Now show me a lightweight, compact, affordable and durable solution and I am all ears...

Edit: The vehicle starts with the engine, this forged Boss 5.0 remains stable at 8400rpm and thats not what impresses me the most. I am impressed that it continues to make power up to 8400rpm and its peak HP is beyond the factory limiter...

Also, The Boss 302 is not a stripper vehicle, it has everything a GT has and not it has a 3 way EPAS system.. What does the M3 have in the interior that is worth $25,000 dollars more?

[King Nothing]

Originally Posted by thePill

The vehicle starts with the engine, this forged Boss 5.0 remains stable at 8400rpm and thats not what impresses me the most. I am impressed that it continues to make power up to 8400rpm and its peak HP is beyond the factory limiter...

curious, how often on a track is the boss at 8400rpms?