Hellcat, rumor is today they show a new HP increase

[2K16SummitSS]

Originally Posted by PDXSSCE

I wish they had left that nonsense off of the automatics & simply charged the tax.

I wish they hadn't then decided that everyone needed their crappy AFM lifters for the 6th generation...

[Royal Tiger]

Originally Posted by PDXSSCE

I wish they had left that nonsense off of the automatics & simply charged the tax.

Exactly!!

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by PDXSSCE

I wish they had left that nonsense off of the automatics & simply charged the tax.

The tax on the consumer end is not the issue. The issue is impact on CAFE. Camaro not meeting internal CAFE targets (actually referred to as Platform Average Fuel Economy or PAFE) will get Camaro cancelled faster than low sales, even if it is making money. Dodge seems to be less concerned about that, but they are also in the worst shape, fuel economy-wise, as a company. They have had to buy emissions credits from Tesla to keep from paying huge fines for not meeting CAFE.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

The tax on the consumer end is not the issue. The issue is impact on CAFE. Camaro not meeting internal CAFE targets (actually referred to as Platform Average Fuel Economy or PAFE) will get Camaro cancelled faster than low sales, even if it is making money. Dodge seems to be less concerned about that, but they are also in the worst shape, fuel economy-wise, as a company. They have had to buy emissions credits from Tesla to keep from paying huge fines for not meeting CAFE.

Interesting. I wondered how Dodge was getting around that with their strategy of Hellcat everything

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by shaffe

Interesting. I wondered how Dodge was getting around that with their strategy of Hellcat everything

...and how Tesla can show a profit. .

And they are not the only ones. Tesla generates a ton of Zero Emissions credits and doesn’t have to use any of them, so they make money selling them to automakers who have difficulty generating their own.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

...and how Tesla can show a profit. .

And they are not the only ones. Tesla generates a ton of Zero Emissions credits and doesn’t have to use any of them, so they make money selling them to automakers who have difficulty generating their own.

So automakers can just straight up buy credits from other automakers and that makes it ok for CAFE? Seems odd lol

[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

The tax on the consumer end is not the issue. The issue is impact on CAFE. Camaro not meeting internal CAFE targets (actually referred to as Platform Average Fuel Economy or PAFE) will get Camaro cancelled faster than low sales, even if it is making money. Dodge seems to be less concerned about that, but they are also in the worst shape, fuel economy-wise, as a company. They have had to buy emissions credits from Tesla to keep from paying huge fines for not meeting CAFE.

And even Dodge has their own take on DoD for the autos. But I can tell you from experience it is not nearly as efficient in saving fuel as AFM that GM uses.

[PDXSSCE]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

The tax on the consumer end is not the issue. The issue is impact on CAFE. Camaro not meeting internal CAFE targets (actually referred to as Platform Average Fuel Economy or PAFE) will get Camaro cancelled faster than low sales, even if it is making money. Dodge seems to be less concerned about that, but they are also in the worst shape, fuel economy-wise, as a company. They have had to buy emissions credits from Tesla to keep from paying huge fines for not meeting CAFE.

I would think that Cruze, Malibu, Sonic, Spark & Volt sales would more than offset Camaro not meeting CAFE standards. My understanding is that it's based on brand or maybe even manufacturer.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by PDXSSCE

I would think that Cruze, Malibu, Sonic, Spark & Volt sales would more than offset Camaro not meeting CAFE standards. My understanding is that it's based on brand or maybe even manufacturer.

Based on manufacturer, not brand. So VW includes Audi, Bentley, Lamborghini. Not certain about Porsche, because of the way VW is set up. Porsche might still be considered a separate company. They are still sorting out the lawsuits from when Porsche tried a stock maneuver to buy VW. Guppy swallows whale...film at 11.

But anyway, only Honda and for a while Hyundai-Kia were capable of meeting CAFE without having to generate credits from hybrids and EVs. Hyundai-Kia has gone off that track now that they have more CUVs, SUVs, and the Genesis brand.

When the new requirements come in it will actually be HARDER for small vehicles to make the targets than larger vehicles. Part of the reason FCA ditched Dart and 200. They were actually worse towards CAFE calculations than 300. Better fuel economy, but further away from their required target. It’s also one of the reasons automakers are loving the CUV craze. The smaller the footprint area (wheelbase X track) the HIGHER the fuel economy target. Manufacturers are trying to optimize that footprint area by pushing the wheels further out to the corners. It’s why Malibu is almost as big as Impala. It’s target is not as tough as the previous Malibu, and it is still several hundred pounds lighter than Impala, and therefore has a better starting point towards making the targets. And CUVs can have the rear tires pushed further back (more footprint area) and can get almost as good FE as similar sized sedans, and if specked out correctly (flat load floor, AWD) can qualify under the truck fleet (less stringent targets) instead of the car fleet.

There are also credits for E85, stop/start, new HVAC coolant. There are people who have really decent careers in just understanding the math around balancing fuel economy targets in all the regions and countries. Sorta like experts in managing salary cap in professional football and baseball.

[McBeevee]

Originally Posted by SuperSound

And even Dodge has their own take on DoD for the autos. But I can tell you from experience it is not nearly as efficient in saving fuel as AFM that GM uses.

Actually Dodge's DoD flat out sucks! It's one of the main reasons I dumped my Scat Pack before the lease was up.

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Based on manufacturer, not brand. So VW includes Audi, Bentley, Lamborghini. Not certain about Porsche, because of the way VW is set up. Porsche might still be considered a separate company. They are still sorting out the lawsuits from when Porsche tried a stock maneuver to buy VW. Guppy swallows whale...film at 11.
...
The smaller the footprint area (wheelbase X track) the HIGHER the fuel economy target. Manufacturers are trying to optimize that footprint area by pushing the wheels further out to the corners. It’s why Malibu is almost as big as Impala. It’s target is not as tough as the previous Malibu, and it is still several hundred pounds lighter than Impala, and therefore has a better starting point towards making the targets.
...
There are also credits for E85, stop/start, new HVAC coolant. There are people who have really decent careers in just understanding the math around balancing fuel economy targets in all the regions and countries. Sorta like experts in managing salary cap in professional football and baseball.

Another example of the push for bigger footprints, when I heard that the new Silverado was getting bigger I instantly thought 'CAFE gimmicking'.

And I thought that the credits for E85 were either getting eliminated or drastically cut? FFV engines seem to be a lot rarer now than a few years ago, which would support that. I know that E85 fuel credits were extremely beneficial in the past, since the overall goal of CAFE isn't to make vehicles more efficient but for the United States to import less fuel. So a car fueled by 15% gasoline & 85% corn ethanol is, in effect, using around 1/6th the gasoline of its 'G100' equivalent. In reality, that math is very flawed ... but such was the reasoning for providing those credits in the first place.

As to Porsche/VW ... I have no idea who legally owns what. But I do remember that they were simultaneously trying to buy each other a few years ago, which struck me as rather odd. Logically, only one of them should have been in a position to buy the other. If two companies are on relatively equal financial footing, doesn't that normally results in a merger instead of an acquisition? But as I recall, the ownership structure of both companies is a bit weird to begin with so who knows what normal would ever look like.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

Another example of the push for bigger footprints, when I heard that the new Silverado was getting bigger I instantly thought 'CAFE gimmicking'.

And I thought that the credits for E85 were either getting eliminated or drastically cut? FFV engines seem to be a lot rarer now than a few years ago, which would support that. I know that E85 fuel credits were extremely beneficial in the past, since the overall goal of CAFE isn't to make vehicles more efficient but for the United States to import less fuel. So a car fueled by 15% gasoline & 85% corn ethanol is, in effect, using around 1/6th the gasoline of its 'G100' equivalent. In reality, that math is very flawed ... but such was the reasoning for providing those credits in the first place.

As to Porsche/VW ... I have no idea who legally owns what. But I do remember that they were simultaneously trying to buy each other a few years ago, which struck me as rather odd. Logically, only one of them should have been in a position to buy the other. If two companies are on relatively equal financial footing, doesn't that normally results in a merger instead of an acquisition? But as I recall, the ownership structure of both companies is a bit weird to begin with so who knows what normal would ever look like.

The Mark Twain of fuel economy. Every time it comes time to drop the credits, the Corn Farmers Lobby + Election Year Politics = renewal or slight revamp. Automakers still have to engineer as if they're going away because it's never a done deal that they stick around. I'm not sure what the value of the credits is now, but I'm sure they are significantly reduced from where they were 5 - 10 years ago.

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

The Mark Twain of fuel economy. Every time it comes time to drop the credits, the Corn Farmers Lobby + Election Year Politics = renewal or slight revamp. Automakers still have to engineer as if they're going away because it's never a done deal that they stick around. I'm not sure what the value of the credits is now, but I'm sure they are significantly reduced from where they were 5 - 10 years ago.

I should have specified (and I think I had something about it in one version of that post). The wonky math is the claimed reason for including the huge E85 credit. The actual reason is probably just what you said. But we have a 'no politics' rule here on the site, so we're going to have to leave at that.

[Royal Tiger]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

The tax on the consumer end is not the issue. The issue is impact on CAFE. Camaro not meeting internal CAFE targets (actually referred to as Platform Average Fuel Economy or PAFE) will get Camaro cancelled faster than low sales, even if it is making money. Dodge seems to be less concerned about that, but they are also in the worst shape, fuel economy-wise, as a company. They have had to buy emissions credits from Tesla to keep from paying huge fines for not meeting CAFE.

Thanks Jim.

If that doesn’t prove once and for all that CAFE is a complete joke, nothing will. Buying “credits”? Yep, it’s all about efficiency and the environment.