engine info on LLN

[GTAHVIT]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

They are still Gen IV motors. The only groundbreaking difference would be the Supercharger...and that's not enought to designate a whole new Engine generation.

Ah,

So then the mystery LS8 could be in the 5th gen if we are basing it on engine availability?

[Gatecrasher]

A sports coupe should have better numbers than a sports sedan.

I would be inclined to disagree when that sports sedan is almost 2x the price.

[GTAHVIT]

Originally Posted by Gatecrasher

I would be inclined to disagree when that sports sedan is almost 2x the price.

Ah PHOOOEY. Come on... Don't kill my logic here. It's the only factual thing I've got to hang on to....

OK lets look at it this way.

CTS-V: High end car for the six figure crowd that won't compromise luxury or performance.

ZR1: Ultra performance car for those that have to have the very best in a performance car

Camaro SS/Z28: The everyday muscle car fan who's willing to spend a little more for premium power just to have that make you giggle seat of the pants wow feeling at a reasonable price.

The CTS and the Corvette have base models that are a great option for those who don't need ultimate performance. Why wouldn't GM apply the same logic to the Camaro?? I'm still hanging on that there will be a near 500hp SS/Z28 Camaro.

So, NAH

[radz28]

+1!!!

[GTAHVIT]

Originally Posted by radz282003

+1!!!

Thank you!!!!!

[Mr. Wyndham]

Oh, I most definitely think there'll be a 500+hp version...but look for it in the style of a limted production numbers, high-priced GT500 fighter.

I thought at first you were expecting to see all that at 30k...and I was like, uh --

[GTAHVIT]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

Oh, I most definitely think there'll be a 500+hp version...but look for it in the style of a limted production numbers, high-priced GT500 fighter.

I thought at first you were expecting to see all that at 30k...and I was like, uh --

Yeeeaaauh. Don't I wish.

[Georgianne]

Originally Posted by Gatecrasher

I don't know how we can forget what we know when GM has such a rich engine history to build off of.

Let's take a step back for a second and try to look at the bigger picture. Maybe then we can fill try to in the blanks.

Look at the product cycles for the previous Corvette and F-body V8s. The Corvette has always taken out the lead engine for each new generation. Do we really think the Camaro is going to change that? It's possible, but unlikely.

GEN II - LT1 93-96 4 model years
GEN III - LS1 97-04 8 model years
GEN IV - LS2 05-07 3 model years
GEN IVB- LS3 08-11? 4 model years (This puts us real close to the lifespan of the Gen III. Maybe right on if the LS3 lives on until the 2012 Camaro)

According to this link the next gen Corvette is supposed to start production in summer of 2010, which would probably make it a 2011 model. (BTW, this guy has an excellent track record regarding future production plans) That'd be the perfect time to drop a new Gen V. So what does that leave us with in the meantime? The Camaro needs to stay a little behind the Vette for prestige reasons, as well as cost. The Camaro can't lead a brand new engine line because it'd add significant cost to the car. It's already entering a shaky market IMHO due to the fuel economy situation.

So if it's not going to be a brand new engine, we're left with an existing engine, or a variant of an existing Gen IV engine.

AFM = Active Fuel Management / Displacement on Demand

LLT 3.6L DI V6 280-300 hp <---Camaro base/RS sits here. Car already photographed with this engine, or something VERY close to it.
L76 6.0L V8 w/ AFM 355hp <---Maybe. It makes sense for a Z28. Soundly thrashes the Mustang. Currently used in Zeta G8
L98 6.0L V8 w/o AFM 362hp <---Currently used in overseas Holden Zeta cars
L92 6.2L V8 w/ AFM 380-403 <---Now you're talking, but you're starting to close in on LS3 territory.
LS3 6.2L V8 430 hp <---This would make a nice Camaro SS. This also backs up Steve Saleen's statements.
LS7 7.0L V8 505 hp <---Good base for a ZL1, but don't get your hopes up. Hand built with dry sump and exotic materials = $$$
LSA 6.2L V8 550 hp <---More $$$. But hmm...another 6.2L...
LS9 6.2L V8 620 hp <---Megabucks. But yet another 6.2...

So, in the last 12 months GM has introduced 3 performance engines, all 6.2L in displacement, based around the LS3 long block as a core. We're looking at a market that is going to place huge importance on fuel economy, so the DI V6 makes sense for the base car. The Z28 is also (hopefully) a volume car, so it'll need fuel savings too. The SS model would be a niche seller, so like the Vette, things like AFM aren't as important. But 415-430hp still puts you well shy of the 470 in the Mustang GT500. Likewise, if you bump up the LS3 to 450-ish, that steps on the toes of the Vette guys, and opens a huge gap between the 280-ish hp base Camaro and the SS.

The SS wouldn't need to win the horsepower-on-paper battle with the GT500 because it's got the edge in technology. It's got an advanced IRS, a lighter naturally aspirated aluminum engine, and it'll likely be considerably cheaper. If GM nails the weight and the gearing, they can beat the GT500 with considerably less power.

Which still leaves us with this mystery Z28 engine. My money is on either the L76 or L98 with AFM, somewhere in the 360-380hp range. If they're going to a common LS3 block, and if Steve Saleen is correct that it's a detuned LS3, maybe it'll get bumped to 6.2L too. 375 horsepower has a real nice ring to it.

ooh baby I love it when you talk like that.
5 stars to an intelligent thread!

[Gatecrasher]

My Google-fu is superior

[DGthe3]

Where would this site be without google?
My 1st year physics prof had a saying "Eif you don't know, azk google" (he was german)

[GothamCamaro]

Originally Posted by Gatecrasher

My Google-fu is superior

It was a nice little post though.

[Grape Ape]

Originally Posted by Gatecrasher

I don't know how we can forget what we know when GM has such a rich engine history to build off of.

Let's take a step back for a second and try to look at the bigger picture. Maybe then we can fill try to in the blanks.

Look at the product cycles for the previous Corvette and F-body V8s. The Corvette has always taken out the lead engine for each new generation. Do we really think the Camaro is going to change that? It's possible, but unlikely.

GEN II - LT1 93-96 4 model years
GEN III - LS1 97-04 8 model years
GEN IV - LS2 05-07 3 model years
GEN IVB- LS3 08-11? 4 model years (This puts us real close to the lifespan of the Gen III. Maybe right on if the LS3 lives on until the 2012 Camaro)

According to this link the next gen Corvette is supposed to start production in summer of 2010, which would probably make it a 2011 model. (BTW, this guy has an excellent track record regarding future production plans) That'd be the perfect time to drop a new Gen V. So what does that leave us with in the meantime? The Camaro needs to stay a little behind the Vette for prestige reasons, as well as cost. The Camaro can't lead a brand new engine line because it'd add significant cost to the car. It's already entering a shaky market IMHO due to the fuel economy situation.

So if it's not going to be a brand new engine, we're left with an existing engine, or a variant of an existing Gen IV engine.

AFM = Active Fuel Management / Displacement on Demand

LLT 3.6L DI V6 280-300 hp <---Camaro base/RS sits here. Car already photographed with this engine, or something VERY close to it.
L76 6.0L V8 w/ AFM 355hp <---Maybe. It makes sense for a Z28. Soundly thrashes the Mustang. Currently used in Zeta G8
L98 6.0L V8 w/o AFM 362hp <---Currently used in overseas Holden Zeta cars
L92 6.2L V8 w/ AFM 380-403 <---Now you're talking, but you're starting to close in on LS3 territory.
LS3 6.2L V8 430 hp <---This would make a nice Camaro SS. This also backs up Steve Saleen's statements.
LS7 7.0L V8 505 hp <---Good base for a ZL1, but don't get your hopes up. Hand built with dry sump and exotic materials = $$$
LSA 6.2L V8 550 hp <---More $$$. But hmm...another 6.2L...
LS9 6.2L V8 620 hp <---Megabucks. But yet another 6.2...

So, in the last 12 months GM has introduced 3 performance engines, all 6.2L in displacement, based around the LS3 long block as a core. We're looking at a market that is going to place huge importance on fuel economy, so the DI V6 makes sense for the base car. The Z28 is also (hopefully) a volume car, so it'll need fuel savings too. The SS model would be a niche seller, so like the Vette, things like AFM aren't as important. But 415-430hp still puts you well shy of the 470 in the Mustang GT500. Likewise, if you bump up the LS3 to 450-ish, that steps on the toes of the Vette guys, and opens a huge gap between the 280-ish hp base Camaro and the SS.

The SS wouldn't need to win the horsepower-on-paper battle with the GT500 because it's got the edge in technology. It's got an advanced IRS, a lighter naturally aspirated aluminum engine, and it'll likely be considerably cheaper. If GM nails the weight and the gearing, they can beat the GT500 with considerably less power.

Which still leaves us with this mystery Z28 engine. My money is on either the L76 or L98 with AFM, somewhere in the 360-380hp range. If they're going to a common LS3 block, and if Steve Saleen is correct that it's a detuned LS3, maybe it'll get bumped to 6.2L too. 375 horsepower has a real nice ring to it.

I think we need a smiley to show for a well written and well reasoned post.

Of the motors you listed my money is on the L92 (but I'm hoping for a twin turbo LTT derivative).

The 5.7 Hemi is getting a bump up to 390hp & 404ft/lbs (in the Ram, but I bet the Challenger gets it to) and the Mustang GT is rumored to be getting a new engine so it can keep up. So unless GM pulls off a weight loss miracle the L76 & L98 will not bring enough power to the party.

One thing: as an accountant I will tell you there is no good financial reason (prestige is a different matter) to not to put a Gen V engine in the Camaro (or anything else) as soon as it is ready. GM will have capitalized all of the R&D cost and will amortize those costs evenly over the expected life of the design. So the every car with a gen V engine will be charged the same amount for R&D until the whole thing is spent (unless they revise the estimated useful life). Of course I am assuming that the Gen V will cost about what the Gen IV does, although there are way too many unknowns for us to the relative costs.

[Georgianne]

Originally Posted by Grape Ape

I think we need a smiley to show for a well written and well reasoned post.





One thing: as an accountant I will tell you there is no good financial reason (prestige is a different matter) to not to put a Gen V engine in the Camaro (or anything else) as soon as it is ready. GM will have capitalized all of the R&D cost and will amortize those costs evenly over the expected life of the design. So the every car with a gen V engine will be charged the same amount for R&D until the whole thing is spent (unless they revise the estimated useful life). Of course I am assuming that the Gen V will cost about what the Gen IV does, although there are way too many unknowns for us to the relative costs.

I agree to your first statement. however, isn't it tax season? What are you doing here at 12:00 at night?

[DGthe3]

REading through that, I got thinking. The LS7 would be the perfect engine for the ZL-1. Its about 1000:1 against going into the Camaro but bear with me. Aluminum 427 (7.0L) + Camaro = ZL-1. Even better would be a 7L gen V engine. if direct injection can improve power by 20% in the V6, even if it doesn't scale up properly and it gets only a 15% increase in power for the big V8, that means a ~575 hp pushrod V8, naturally aspirated. With a GM warranty. If it were done as a lightweight special, thats about 6 lbs/hp which is unfricken believeable. That would be the ultimate expression of the Camaro in my mind.

None of that is likely to happen but I can dream can't I? I think I have lost my mind . . . seeing a fish face C7 did it I think. Hmm, maybe it was gone before that