the best muscle there ever will be

[lbls1]

If I may.....

This statement by the OP puts us at a bit of a dilemma. The camaro's origin was based on a 2x2 compact that was labeled as a pony car. The original term of "Muscle Car" was defined as an intermediate sized car with a large displacement engine. The subject GM cars (GTO, Chevelle SS396 & 454, Cutlass 442, Skylark GS, GSX; and later iterations of Buick GN, Monte Carlo SS, Grand Prix, and to be literal, the later day Grand Prix GTP, Lumina Z34, Cutlass Supreme International Series, Regal GS; and the last GM forbearers which include the Grand Prix GTP(?) and Monte Carlo SS fwd) were all larger than the camaro. So after all of that hot air, the camaro's concept doesn't fit the true definition of a muscle car.

On the other hand, if you don't count Chrysler's Charger 4-door sedan, with the absence of the intermediate class and the increased size of the current camaro, one could argue that the fifth gen is the size of the former muscle car class, and could possibly fit into this description.

So the dilemma is: Do you hold the camaro to its true origin as a pony car, or re-define it (due to its increased size) as a midsized muscle car??


Interesting......

[htron50]

Originally Posted by lbls1

If I may.....

This statement by the OP puts us at a bit of a dilemma. The camaro's origin was based on a 2x2 compact that was labeled as a pony car. The original term of "Muscle Car" was defined as an intermediate sized car with a large displacement engine. The subject GM cars (GTO, Chevelle SS396 & 454, Cutlass 442, Skylark GS, GSX; and later iterations of Buick GN, Monte Carlo SS, Grand Prix, and to be literal, the later day Grand Prix GTP, Lumina Z34, Cutlass Supreme International Series, Regal GS; and the last GM forbearers which include the Grand Prix GTP(?) and Monte Carlo SS fwd) were all larger than the camaro. So after all of that hot air, the camaro's concept doesn't fit the true definition of a muscle car.

On the other hand, if you don't count Chrysler's Charger 4-door sedan, with the absence of the intermediate class and the increased size of the current camaro, one could argue that the fifth gen is the size of the former muscle car class, and could possibly fit into this description.

So the dilemma is: Do you hold the camaro to its true origin as a pony car, or re-define it (due to its increased size) as a midsized muscle car??


Interesting......

You have a perspective, which I can see. I would, however, submit to you that the Pony Cars with big horsepower (i.e., Z28, 396/375 Camaro, 396/375 Nova, etc) are still subsets of the Muscle Car Category. No doubt about it. You wouldn't call the Yenko or COPO Camaro a Muscle Car based on the "class" you define. And Yenko made Chevelles too. All the "line extensions" with big power are "Muscle Cars"..... And, yes 340 Six Packs were considered Muscle Cars (be it not so big a muscle LOL) So Muscle Cars of the era were not exclusive to the body style, more based on the factory intentions of the motor installed. (YA HEARD!)... thanks OldScool, I borrowed it from ya!

[Shurenuff]

Originally Posted by lbls1

If I may.....

This statement by the OP puts us at a bit of a dilemma. The camaro's origin was based on a 2x2 compact that was labeled as a pony car. The original term of "Muscle Car" was defined as an intermediate sized car with a large displacement engine. The subject GM cars (GTO, Chevelle SS396 & 454, Cutlass 442, Skylark GS, GSX; and later iterations of Buick GN, Monte Carlo SS, Grand Prix, and to be literal, the later day Grand Prix GTP, Lumina Z34, Cutlass Supreme International Series, Regal GS; and the last GM forbearers which include the Grand Prix GTP(?) and Monte Carlo SS fwd) were all larger than the camaro. So after all of that hot air, the camaro's concept doesn't fit the true definition of a muscle car.

On the other hand, if you don't count Chrysler's Charger 4-door sedan, with the absence of the intermediate class and the increased size of the current camaro, one could argue that the fifth gen is the size of the former muscle car class, and could possibly fit into this description.

So the dilemma is: Do you hold the camaro to its true origin as a pony car, or re-define it (due to its increased size) as a midsized muscle car??


Interesting......

I am well aware of the history behind the muscle and pony car names, but because of the exact reasons you specify, I have always considered the 5th gen V8 Camaro modern muscle. It's large, it's heavy, and it has a big engine. To me that fits the muscle car category much better than the pony car category, regardless of historical categorations.

[mr02Z/28]

any of you guys from the "era" of the True Muscle Car ??? I'm not sure the ZL1 can be compared to the Original Muscle Car era except maybe in HorsePower terms.... The Muscle Car was a Mid-sized car stuffed with a Big-Block motor, example GTO/Chevelle/GS/Skylark/Cutlass/442.. All the others like the Mustang and Camaro were considered Pony Cars, not Muscle Cars...

[lbls1]

Posts 16, 17. and 18: That is why I hinted that perhaps we are at a crossroads with the term muscle. Do we take it literally by saying that we're missing the gto, chevelle, gtx, torino cobra and gt, fairlane, Cyclone, and say that the zl1 should take a hike...lol...

Or should we admit that through the years the term muscle has stretched from its definition established at the creation of the GTO, to include the modern day cars like Challenger, Charger and now the Camaro? All three of these cars have grown (literally) to the performance, persona and legendary status of the muscle cars of old.

.....and in doing so (Naming zl1 as the pinnacle of Muscle Power)....what becomes of the original legacy of the pony car????

....getting interesting....

[Rock-It Man]

Originally Posted by mr02Z/28

any of you guys from the "era" of the True Muscle Car ??? I'm not sure the ZL1 can be compared to the Original Muscle Car era except maybe in HorsePower terms.... The Muscle Car was a Mid-sized car stuffed with a Big-Block motor, example GTO/Chevelle/GS/Skylark/Cutlass/442.. All the others like the Mustang and Camaro were considered Pony Cars, not Muscle Cars...

Kinda hard to beat an old muscle car like the 442 or GTO of the 60's, with a big block, a 4 speed, and a generous sized rear seat for...you know...

[coolman]

Muscle car, pony car ,what ever you want to call them, today's are far better than the old days and weather or not the ZL1 is king is yet to be seen. It's not even out yet. So to me this thread is meaningless.

[OldScoolCamaro]

Well, the ZL1 isn't a muscle car. Muscle cars were just that. Muscle. They had more muscle than the driver. They required muscle< coordination, feel, and experience> to operate. Today's cars are like a living room couch with a remote where you watch HiDef TV. The ZL1 is a modern marvel, a tribute to all that is technolgicaly possible, but not a true muscle car. Those precious species live in a past gone era. Just my 2 cents. As you were.

[coolman]

Originally Posted by OldScoolCamaro

Well, the ZL1 isn't a muscle car. Muscle cars were just that. Muscle. They had more muscle than the driver. They required muscle< coordination, feel, and experience> to operate. Today's cars are like a living room couch with a remote where you watch HiDef TV. The ZL1 is a modern marvel, a tribute to all that is technolgicaly possible, but not a true muscle car. Those precious species live in a past gone era. Just my 2 cents. As you were.

I agree and say thank god for that.

[htron50]

May I add ONE tidbit to what OldScool says.

I MISS THE BIG BUCKET SEATS OF YESTERYEAR. Why they put these dinky small *ss seats in cars is beyond me. They make the consoles almost a friggin foot wide when we could have had wider bigger seats.

Who makes a car with Big bucket seats anymore? Who is designing these things. PEOPLE are fatter these days (see the news?) but the seats are 2/3 the size they used to be when on avg folks were smaller. Gimme a seat like in the old Chevelle or GTO and I'd be happy (and very comfy in my new Living Room of the road).

[Kluch]

Best ever? Doubtful. Who knows what technology or how much horsepower the future will bring? Awesome car in the modern era and great bang for the buck? Yes. A force to be reckoned with? Absolutely.

[hairtrigger]

With all the perceived constraints on society from the conservationists and knee jerk politicians endorsing the peak oil/earth is melting senario,,,,there is still a huge following for Horsepower powered by oil and until oil ends we are going to see the Pony/Sports car wars continue. It will cost more in the short term but people are smart and the ZL1 in the future will be nothing but a step in the ladder. There will be better Muscle/Pony cars than the ZL1 or GT500 from 2012/13 in the future.

[1BADZL1]

Good thread, but totally subjective...
Depending on who you talk to.....

[Ltespd]

It may be the best up until this point. But I hope cars like this continue to be made...and they continue to improve.