SS/Z

[RLHMARINES]

Originally Posted by thePill

SS/Z

"Z" has been a symbol of performance whether it be straight line or handling since the beginning of GM performance. ZR1, Z06, ZL1 and Z28 are the most popular but using the "Z" incorporated into the name met just a little more. the IROC-Z proved to be more popular upon release in 1985 and eventually led to the Z28 being discontinued in 1988. I'm not saying bring back the IROC-Z, I am saying that for this HP edition, top of the line SS.. merely incorporate the "Z" designator and apply it to the SS name.

This car will in fact be a severely upgraded SS and in my opinion, the real Z28 wouldn't need F55 MRC, Forced Induction or weight well over 4000lbs (Which is why GM may withhold the name plate). Give the Z/28 the Z06 treatment, the Z51 option, drop 200lbs, in fact... If you want to know what a new Z/28 should look like, google "2010 Sunoco Camaro" and there you have it... the old Z/28 looked just like the other Camaros but it was the rest of the car that made it different.

This said "SS/Z" wouldn't automatically play second fiddle to a lower costing Z/28, The Boss can't run down a GT500 in the quarter, the GT500 has every available option any owner could ever want. That doesn't mean the Z/28 would be the lesser car either, both cars would draw completely different crowds. The SS/Z would take its place among the other SS lineup, the 1SS, 2SS, SSX (Z/28) and the SS/Z and would actually bridge the gap in both performance and the name plates together from the SS>Z28>SSZ.. best of both worlds, Super Sport power, Z28 handling, Halo car Sport coupe luxury all packaged in a 4200lbs, $55,000 dollar, limited edition run...

If you want everything, get the SS/Z, if you are a serious road racer, get the Z/28.. You want to mod for drag racing, get the 1SS/2SS.. Don't want a V8, get the LTs or get the RS (V6 performance pack like Ford has with some SS/Z28 suspension) and you have a full lineup covering almost every aspect that a consumer would hope for...

I vote we eliminate the "which is better, SS or Z/28" argument. Having a top dog that wears both the badges would tell consumers that it is everything they ever wanted in the Camaro as a whole but the Z/28 will still be reserved for the hard core, out of the box race car crowd that it was in the beginning and the SS will continue to dominate sales with a lower MSRP, comfort, options, power and provide a great base for the after market... In the end, who wins?

I was thinking some think similar on another thread:

I have been bouncing back and forth on the proposed name but I will say again, I will buy what ever this top dog Camaro is as long as it's not in the CTS-V price range. I have been waiting for the Z/28 because I thought it would be the top model, if it's not, I'll buy whatever is the top model.

I think that GM has a lot in store for us because while we are all interested in the Z/28, we have totally forgotten about the proposed twin turbo six that will eventually come out to do battle with fords ecoboost v6 that will eventually find it's way to the mustang. It may or may not happen on this 5th Gen. platform. The new 5th Gen. v8 engines will also be out soon, and I think they will debut in the 5 Gen. Camaro and then be a carryover to the 6th Gen. Camaro especially if they come out in 2015 or later.

I think we have already seen the preview of the track pack Camaro (Z/28) to battle the boss 302 in the SSX (minus the wing and roll bars of course) that Chevy showed @ SEMA. The parts are there for such an animal, cammed 6.2 v8 with suspension upgrade with a little weight reduction. If GM does not want to use coil overs on the production car then the suspension work that GM has been doing with the hyper Camaro can be used on a lesser model without the engine and become the new track pack (Z/28) easily plus a little engine tweaking on the LS3 to better to compete with the boss and the 392 hemi. As for the GT500 Cobra, the proposed "HP" edition Camaro will no doubt be the answer from what we have been seeing so for.

Again, this is ONLY my speculation on the future and nothing else. GM has only about a 6-8 year window to get these high horsepower cars on the street before regulations make it harder to produce and they become very limited models which will depend on high economy car sales to make these performance cars viable in the future.

You guy's have put together a much more coherent argument than I could ever make.

[thePill]

@RLHMARINES, First, your argument wasn't incoherent and... educated speculation shouldn't be categorized as fantasy.. Dumb speculation? yeah.. but put some thought into it and it becomes a possibility rather than a shot in the dark.

Second, your statement of "GM has only about a 6-8 year window to get these high horsepower cars on the street before regulations make it harder to produce and they become very limited models which will depend on high economy car sales to make these performance cars viable in the future."

Yes, Mandatory safety features were a fear of mine too.. in 1994... My father also feared the standard safety and gas prices choking the life from the V8... in 1978... My grandfather feared that gas prices would destroy Hi-Po automobiles forever... in 1972... Life always finds a way... and our manufacturers will always find that loop hole just as they have for almost 50 years...

And finally, with Direct injection, cylinder wall technology and elimination of engine accessories (ie belt driven AC, Power steering and Alternator with electric components) it isn't insane to think that a 450hp V8 could turn 30mpg.. add in your valve train advancements and a smart ECM... I could see 35mpg.. what about weight savings? Boron steel or Aluminum.. Lighter, stronger and still more MPG savings.. The V8 isn't going anywhere, it maybe more expensive (as it has always been) but deleting the V8 from American vehicles would be like deleting the American flag.. keeping it though will be expensive.. just as our freedoms are...

Edit... "You guy's have put together a much more coherent argument than I could ever make."
Arguments here that involve "you guys" like Radz, Dragon, Ultra, myself (Mustang lover) and many others are the ones I truly enjoy... Understand the enemy, that is why I am here.. You of all people should understand this Marine.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by thePill

1.) Try not to look at this Z28 being the "last" Z28, the 6th Gen will surely assume a more modern philosophy and surely the 6th rendition will call on the other Gens.

2.) I was referring to the HP Edition being the SS/Z and that there is no 4th V8 option... SS>Z28>SS/Z, three models, three different classes and direction.

Originally Posted by thePill

Second, your statement of "GM has only about a 6-8 year window to get these high horsepower cars on the street before regulations make it harder to produce and they become very limited models which will depend on high economy car sales to make these performance cars viable in the future."

Yes, Mandatory safety features were a fear of mine too.. in 1994... My father also feared the standard safety and gas prices choking the life from the V8... in 1978... My grandfather feared that gas prices would destroy Hi-Po automobiles forever... in 1972... Life always finds a way... and our manufacturers will always find that loop hole just as they have for almost 50 years...

I dunno, it's very clear this time around...the fleet must average a fuel economy rating of 35 or higher in 2016 based on sales by volume. Trucks must average 27 mpg, iirc. I don't believe that high performance vehicles will be destroyed or eliminated...far from it, however I do believe they will become more expensive to as to utilize the influence of economics to reduce the volume of these types of cars sold. However I don't mean these will become $100,000 cars. You'd (general statement) be surprised how much $1000.00 can make a difference in sales of a car that's already expensive to fuel.

Originally Posted by thePill

And finally, with Direct injection, cylinder wall technology and elimination of engine accessories (ie belt driven AC, Power steering and Alternator with electric components) it isn't insane to think that a 450hp V8 could turn 30mpg.. add in your valve train advancements and a smart ECM... I could see 35mpg.. what about weight savings? Boron steel or Aluminum.. Lighter, stronger and still more MPG savings.. The V8 isn't going anywhere, it maybe more expensive (as it has always been) but deleting the V8 from American vehicles would be like deleting the American flag.. keeping it though will be expensive.. just as our freedoms are...

I agree with all of the above....with one caveat.....everything you've said is possible, but expensive. Advanced V8s and aluminum unibodies will add significant costs to cars as we know them, today.

In the spirit of the previous comment about economic influences...they may not be artificial...

Originally Posted by thePill

Edit... "You guy's have put together a much more coherent argument than I could ever make."
Arguments here that involve "you guys" like Radz, Dragon, Ultra, myself (Mustang lover) and many others are the ones I truly enjoy... Understand the enemy, that is why I am here.. You of all people should understand this Marine.

Now just wait a second...I don't subscribe to the "enemy" theory.

[thePill]

Don't worry about the standard, They will meet or exceed the standards easily in the allotted time. Yes, it will be expensive... When hasn't tech been expensive? Boron steel is a great alternative to Aluminum (until Aluminum becomes cheap).. Hell, I have enough beer cans in plastic garbage bags out back right now to make a 2015 Mustang... Its just the procedures and training of personnel that make it expensive right now.

Yes, the 35mpg standard seems shocking, but if they can bring a 450hp V8 up to that standard... would that be a bad thing?.. Besides, last I checked, our Pony Cars were 50 years old... how long does a president last?.. Like my favorite "Power Thirst" commercial said "If god gives you lemons, YOU FIND A NEW GOD!!"

Its only shocking to us because this is our automotive crisis for our generation, and so I agree with the Marines V6 turbo theory but there will always be a V8... No reason to pull the fire alarm.. this has happened before...

[thePill]

Listen, the 1st Gen Z28s base price cost a man a 1 years salary, a 5th gen Z28 will cost a man a 1 years salary.. The standards have increased and they will continue to do so... gradually... over time.. when you and I do not care anymore.

The Camaro is moving into the Halo car spot and bumping the Corvette. Why? Because the Corvette is produced in low volumes, how can GM possibly supply 1 Corvette to every 1 of the 5000 US dealers just to get people on the lot. Is that a bad thing? What happens to a Halo car when production volume is limited? It goes into Championship mode, where Ferrari, Porsche, Jags and Lambos are. Another reason is because Cheryl is the Product manager of both the Camaro and C6 Corvette and she has a great perspective on both products.

The Camaro can offer the Halo trim/HP edition in volumes over 3:1 per dealer if they wanted to. that is 15,000 top dog Camaro's and Corvette's sales can be handled per special order like every other Sports cars is...

The Camaro gets people on the lots, that was proven last year, compare Vette sales (Grand Sport) to Camaros as a whole.. 7:1 sales ratio for almost the same price? The Corvette will ascend to something else, the Camaro will be the Halo car for GM...

Ford has been doing this for years...

[thePill]

Just so you know I am passionate and I do understand the cost involved.. Here is a PM to one of my High school friends that writes for a news paper in the automotive section... This is extemely long..

PM:
Pamela Kay Schmalenberger January 18 at 8:39pm Report
I know absolutely nothing about cars. I need to come up with some kind of automotive feature....in Illinois in January...for the Wheels section of my newspaper. I see that you are a bit of a gear-head. Any suggestions? (It has to be something I can understand, but not look too simple to car folks) :-)
Facebook is so freaking helpful! lol

Kevin Mckinney January 19 at 7:45am
I always leaned towards performance in automobiles and I have always loved combustion engines. The only thing that bothers me is that combustion engines are extremely inefficient right now. What makes them inefficient is that they suffer from parasitic losses. Parasitic losses are things like friction, heat, intake/exhaust restriction and primitive fuel delivery to name some. For the most part, engineers are discovering ways to mitigate those losses through technology and advanced production procedures but even technology cannot eliminate those parasitic losses completely.

The first step in making the most efficient combustion engine is identifying parasitic losses that we can eliminate completely. There are many components that utilize the engines power to operate and performed their function. These devices are usually located within the engine compartment and are operated from the engines crankshaft by belt or chain. This includes the Air Conditioning, Power Steering and Alternator. Out of those three components, Air Condition robs more horsepower and fuel while active than any other belt driven engine accessory.

Electric Air Condition or (EAC) is not a completely new idea, every home with central air uses electric air conditioning but, imagine every time you used it the lights in your house would dim. That is whats happening to your cars engine, you use 5-15% more fuel and create 5-15% less energy. Belt driven air conditioners used today could probably cool a 1500 square meter home let alone a small car.

EAC and the compressor could be repositioned from the engine bay to the rear of the car (Trunk or under the back seat). It would operate the same way any simple electric engine works and air could be distributed evenly using a central air type system of ducts throughout the cabin. Eventually, all the engines components would become electric, Ford has already designed an Electric Power Steering unit and saved and increased power and efficiency by 6-8%, eventually, all engine accessories will become electric to create the first Independent Combustion Engine and it should start with a more efficient, electric air conditioner...

I hope this helps...

Pamela Kay Schmalenberger January 20 at 1:53am Report
It does...thanks SO much!
I am going to find an local "expert" to interview and discuss with to write an article on it.
Hope all is well in Germany!

[thePill]

And.. A poem I wrote my wife after buying performance parts without her consent...

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000653239737#!/photo.php?fbid=180803208618119&set=a.1029747230676 35.6952.100000653239737

Women cannot understand the bond between man and machine...

This machine is bound to me as I am bound to it. It is a trophy, a reward.. an "extension of me"...

I inhale as it does, just the same as we breath out. Its color reflects my mood and my mood reflects in its color.

When it is idle, I am idle, when it moves, I am moved... Every notch in the interior was made for my fingers, every crevice was made for my hands...

Every sound it makes is a song if only understood by me, every song I sing in his interior puts a smile on both our faces...

We are not enslaved to each other, as the road is enslaved to us... but we will lay our tread on those enslaved and in our wheels we trust....

(I hope your reading this honey because I just ordered some "safety" equipment...)

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by thePill

The Camaro is moving into the Halo car spot and bumping the Corvette. Why? Because the Corvette is produced in low volumes, how can GM possibly supply 1 Corvette to every 1 of the 5000 US dealers just to get people on the lot. Is that a bad thing? What happens to a Halo car when production volume is limited? It goes into Championship mode, where Ferrari, Porsche, Jags and Lambos are. Another reason is because Cheryl is the Product manager of both the Camaro and C6 Corvette and she has a great perspective on both products.

I believe (but cannot confirm) that GM as a company only has 4300 dealers total, and a little over half are Chevy dealers as of last year and the dealer-body consolidation...and I don't think Cheryl is Product manager for both vehicles....not to nitpick.

There are several factors that play into the Corvette's sales slump. For one, the 30,000 unit/yr sales were great, but not sustainable. Corvette still leads its segment in sales easily, and from what I can gather GM is comfortable with its sales performance right now. Obviously there is nothing to be thrilled about, but it is selling at least as many units as they expect. Another is a topic I spoke about a while ago: the demographic (specifically of finances) of most Corvette buyers.

Originally Posted by thePill

The Camaro can offer the Halo trim/HP edition in volumes over 3:1 per dealer if they wanted to. that is 15,000 top dog Camaro's and Corvette's sales can be handled per special order like every other Sports cars is...

The Camaro gets people on the lots, that was proven last year, compare Vette sales (Grand Sport) to Camaros as a whole.. 7:1 sales ratio for almost the same price? The Corvette will ascend to something else, the Camaro will be the Halo car for GM...

Ford has been doing this for years...

I don't think GM has ever experienced this trend...and I don't think they ever will. Corvette is just as important as Camaro to the company...if not a little more so. They may offer a Camaro that impedes on the performance levels of the lower-tier Corvettes...but the Z06 and ZR1 still exist. The Corvette has been, and always will be GM and Chevrolet's true "halo car". The Camaro will always be its little bro...impressive none-the-less...

Originally Posted by thePill

Just so you know I am passionate and I do understand the cost involved...

I hope I never insinuated you are not passionate...the time you spend on here speaks volumes to that.

[thePill]

Ah well, Cheryl was the product manager for the Z06, and assuming the role of Camaro product manager may have removed her from the Corvette completely...

You maybe correct about the 4300 mark as well, the last I checked was about 9 months ago and GM still had 5000 dealerships in the US.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by thePill

Ah well, Cheryl was the product manager for the Z06, and assuming the role of Camaro product manager may have removed her from the Corvette completely...

I went and double-checked after I wrote that. She is indeed the Camaro Product Manager. I should have known that...

[thePill]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

I went and double-checked after I wrote that. She is indeed the Camaro Product Manager. I should have known that...

I knew she was the PM for the Camaro, but I still can't find anything saying she is still with the C6 team...