ZR1 Spark Plugs?

[briancb1]

Ted,

You are the first person to really put your nose down on NGK plugs (edit: from the professionals that I follow). Being a simple part that it is, what is your logic behind your conclusions? Setting all the feelings aside (ie. "FEELS" smoother, etc). On the dyno I would assume there would be a 0 gain or loss if all else was equal (gap, heat range, etc) between the 2 plugs.

I'm not here to discredit any of the posters, but asking for technical/measureable figures to be displayed if you have them available for viewing.

Thanks

[sting808]

Another perspective...

I have new TR6 plugs that came with some msd plug wires I ordered. Reason I didn't use them is longevity. I could have removed plugs from the order, but WTH, I consider them throw away plugs. I do not race every weekend, but do Solo 1-2 a month. The car is semi daily driven.

I have a stock boost KB 2.8 and it's a PITA to change plugs. I do not expect power gains between new copper, platinum, or iridiums. I do expect the platinum and iridium to last longer and have less issues in the long run. $2-$8 a plug is not a big deal for me. PITA maintenance irritates me.

GM uses iridiums in the CTS-V and ZR1. Why didnt they use copper plugs? I don't plan to change my plugs for at least 2-3 years, but will pull out easily accessible ones for inspection. Other local shops agree with this logic. Not as a TR6 "hater," but on the situation.

Everyone has their own reasons for agreeing or not.

[JANNETTYRACING]

Originally Posted by briancb1

Ted,

You are the first person to really put your nose down on NGK plugs (edit: from the professionals that I follow). Being a simple part that it is, what is your logic behind your conclusions? Setting all the feelings aside (ie. "FEELS" smoother, etc). On the dyno I would assume there would be a 0 gain or loss if all else was equal (gap, heat range, etc) between the 2 plugs.

I'm not here to discredit any of the posters, but asking for technical/measureable figures to be displayed if you have them available for viewing.

Thanks

I think most Professional shops install them because it said to on the internet LOL

The simple fact is this, GM will save money any way they can, if they can get away with a 2.00 plug VS a 10.00 Plug Don't you believe they would do it?

100s of hours of testing spark plugs goes in to every engine combination to find the right spark plug, Like I said earlier No Professional hot rod shop is going to outsmart the GM engineers.

There is Also the fact that I truly understand spark plug technology.

Ted.

[Anthony @ LG Motorsports]

I always try to use OEM when I can, because as Ted said there is a lot more time and testing going into that than most of the aftermarket.

However there are times when the OEM components do not have the right specs to meet what you are trying to do with it. Also remember GM has a much different set of goals to meet. They have to meet not only what they want to build but CAFE, CARB, NHTSA, Warranty, a 18 year old to a 78 year old.

With that wide of a range of goals, and their suggested 100,000 miles between plug changes, don't expect it to carry over onto every aftermarket build.

For example...I couldn't use that in the race car, they simply do not meet the heat, firing, and spark needed for any of our endurance cars. Of course we may go through plugs every 12-24 hrs of run time as well.

There is a lot of fine tuning that can be done with plugs, if a OEM plug fits the build you will most certainly get a lot of life out of it. If not then sometimes you have to go back to a traditional copper based plug...just don't expect them to last 25k+ miles.

[honeybucket99]

Ted, Got the plugs and finally got them installed...don't know whether to curse you or thank you Damn those things are a PITA to change with the Kenne Bell, but finally got it done and the idle has smoothed out and there is no more stumbling at take off. So I guess I opt for a giant thanks on the advice and for getting the plugs delivered so quickly.

[Crime2]

Originally Posted by honeybucket99

Ted, Got the plugs and finally got them installed...don't know whether to curse you or thank you Damn those things are a PITA to change with the Kenne Bell, but finally got it done and the idle has smoothed out and there is no more stumbling at take off. So I guess I opt for a giant thanks on the advice and for getting the plugs delivered so quickly.

What was the gap on them out of the box? Did you change the gap, if so to what?

[honeybucket99]

Most were .040. I set the gap @ .038, don't know .002 matters but that's what I wanted Now, if my forearms will stop hurting, I'll be a happy camper.

[CC Performance]

Its an AC delco plug.. no magic there at all

I run a BR7EF NGK copper plug and have no issues at all either...

copper is a better conduit but it wears quicker.. ac delco's are rated to like 80,000 miles.. harder material

People swap plugs out because they need to, not to make more power

the general rule is you drop a heat range every 100-125 hp your making
this is to help prevent pre-ignition... the draw back is the plug can foul quicker... the cooler plugs are gapped smaller than the regular heat range plug...

I've heard a lot of things before and even saw someone try to say that you needed to use GM wires only or you get a misfire.. its all rubbish..
We run mid to low 9's with NGK's.... chose your poison..
Lot of people drown the engine with gas trying to prevent detonation, that will have an effect on the plug as well.....

Personally I dont care what plug a person uses but facts are facts and NGK's are some of the most widely used plugs on the market for a reason.. cheap and good.. yes you need to match heat ranges and the gaps are pre-set most of the time as well by the plug mfg.. AND each plug MFG has their own gap requirement.. what you set a ac-delco at is not what you set an NGK at....


Want some good accurate information try calling the NGK tech line or any plug mfg techline and talk to them about it for a while.. real education for free from the people who make them and know their specs and usage..

++ No disprespect intended towards Ted either, there are two sides to every coin and both sides should be presented for a person to make an informed decision ++

[Wesman]

Originally Posted by JANNETTYRACING

Sorry to all you TR-6 Fans, but There is NO Advantage to running a 2 dollar spark plug VS the Factory or ZR-1 Plugs.

You Can't Out Wit the GM Engineers that built this engine.

Driveability and fuel mileage degrades with TR-6 plugs I see it Regularly.

I have a Trash can full of TR-6 Plugs

I agree 100%.

I don't understand why people think its some kind of advantage to run cheap copper plugs in their high performance N/A or F/I car. Its just a huge downgrade in every possible way.

[CC Performance]

Its about the cost... we offer the ac delco plug for $58 a set and the NGK copper is $14

Thats the main reason... I tell most people ordering wires that the ac delco is good for 80,000-100,000 miles and I would re-use them as long as you dont break one

The part number for the AC Delco is 41-110 and Summit sells them for the same as I do at $58 shipped or $5.95/piece

I deal with Vette customers all the time.. its 95% NGK copper and 5% AC Delco or NGK iridiums.. and iridium is an iridium

Also ac delco is tied to gm like autolite is tied to Ford.... Do you use Chevron gas only?

More info

The spark plug firing end temperature must be kept low enough to prevent pre-ignition, but high enough to prevent fouling. This is called “Thermal Performance”, and is determined by the heat range selected.

The spark plug heat range has no relationship to the electrical energy transferred through the spark plug. The heat range of a spark plug is the range in which the plug works well thermally. The heat rating of each NGK spark plug is indicated by a number; lower numbers indicate a hotter type, higher numbers indicate a colder type.


Some basic structural factors affecting the heat range of a spark plug are:
Surface area and/or length of the insulator nose
Thermal conductivity of the insulator, center electrode, etc.





Structure of the center electrode such as a copper core, etc.

• Relative position of the insulator tip to the end of the shell (projection)

The major structural difference affecting the heat rating is the length of the insulator nose. A hot type spark plug has a longer insulator nose. The insulator nose of a hotter spark plug has a longer distance between the firing tip of the insulator, and the point where insulator meets the metal shell. Therefore, the path for the dissipation of heat from the insulator nose to the cylinder head is longer and the firing end stays hotter. The insulator nose of a hotter spark plug also has a greater surface area that is exposed to more of the ignited gases and is easily heated to higher temperatures. A colder spark plug functions in an opposite manner.
The heat range must be carefully selected for proper spark plug thermal performance. If the heat range is not optimal, then serious trouble can be the result. The optimal firing end temperature is approximately between 500°C (932°F) and 800°C (1472°F). The two most common causes of spark plug problems are carbon fouling (< 450°C) and overheating (> 800°C).

The most serious result of selecting a heat range that is too hot is overheating. Overheating will cause the electrodes to wear quickly and can lead to pre-ignition. Pre-ignition occurs when the air-fuel mixture is ignited by a hot object/area in the combustion chamber before the timed spark event occurs. When the spark plug firing end (tip) temperature exceeds 800°C, pre-ignition originating from the overheated insulator ceramic can occur. Pre-ignition will dramatically raise the cylinder temperature and pressure and can cause serious and expensive engine damage. When inspecting a spark plug that has experienced overheating or pre-ignition, blistering on the ceramic insulator and/or melted electrodes can sometimes be found.

As a general guideline, among identical spark plug types, the difference in tip temperature from one heat range to the next is approximately 70°C to 100°C.

Needless to say engines making more power generate more heat and FI generates excessive heat


Here is another sites take on heat ranges

Heat range

The term spark plug heat range refers to the speed with which the plug can transfer heat from the combustion chamber to the engine head. Whether the plug is to be installed in a boat, lawnmower or racecar, it has been found the optimum combustion chamber temperature for gasoline engines is between 500°C–850°C. When it is within that range it is cool enough to avoid pre-ignition and plug tip overheating (which can cause engine damage), while still hot enough to burn off combustion deposits which cause fouling.

The spark plug can help maintain the optimum combustion chamber temperature. The primary method used to do this is by altering the internal length of the core nose, in addition, the alloy compositions in the electrodes can be changed. This means you may not be able to visually tell a difference between heat ranges. When a spark plug is referred to as a “cold plug”, it is one that transfers heat rapidly from the firing tip into the engine head, which keeps the firing tip cooler. A “hot plug” has a much slower rate of heat transfer, which keeps the firing tip hotter.

An unaltered engine will run within the optimum operating range straight from the manufacturer, but if you make modifications such as a turbo, supercharger, increase compression, timing changes, use of alternate fuels, or sustained use of nitrous oxide, these can alter the plug tip temperature and may necessitate a colder plug. A rule of thumb is, one heat range colder per modification or one heat range colder for every 75–100hp you increase. In identical spark plug types, the difference from one full heat range to the next is the ability to remove 70°C to 100°C from the combustion chamber.

The heat range numbers used by spark plug manufacturers are not universal, by that we mean, a 10 heat range in Champion is not the same as a 10 heat range in NGK nor the same in Autolite. Some manufacturers numbering systems are opposite the other, for some manufacturers (Champion, Autolite, Splitfire and Bosch), the higher the number, the hotter the plug. For othe manufacturers (NGK and Denso), the higher the number, the colder the plug.

Do not make spark plug changes at the same time as another engine modification such as injection, carburetion or timing changes as in the event of poor results, it can lead to misleading and inaccurate conclusions (an exception would be when the alternate plugs came as part of a single pre-calibrated upgrade kit). When making spark plug heat range changes, it is better to err on the side of too cold a plug. The worst thing that can happen from too cold a plug is a fouled spark plug, too hot a spark plug can cause severe engine damage

[JANNETTYRACING]

Originally Posted by CC Performance

Its about the cost... we offer the ac delco plug for $58 a set and the NGK copper is $14

Thats the main reason... I tell most people ordering wires that the ac delco is good for 80,000-100,000 miles and I would re-use them as long as you dont break one

The part number for the AC Delco is 41-110 and Summit sells them for the same as I do at $58 shipped or $5.95/piece

I deal with Vette customers all the time.. its 95% NGK copper and 5% AC Delco or NGK iridiums.. and iridium is an iridium

Also ac delco is tied to gm like autolite is tied to Ford.... Do you use Chevron gas only?

More info

The spark plug firing end temperature must be kept low enough to prevent pre-ignition, but high enough to prevent fouling. This is called “Thermal Performance”, and is determined by the heat range selected.

The spark plug heat range has no relationship to the electrical energy transferred through the spark plug. The heat range of a spark plug is the range in which the plug works well thermally. The heat rating of each NGK spark plug is indicated by a number; lower numbers indicate a hotter type, higher numbers indicate a colder type.


Some basic structural factors affecting the heat range of a spark plug are:
Surface area and/or length of the insulator nose
Thermal conductivity of the insulator, center electrode, etc.






Structure of the center electrode such as a copper core, etc.

• Relative position of the insulator tip to the end of the shell (projection)

The major structural difference affecting the heat rating is the length of the insulator nose. A hot type spark plug has a longer insulator nose. The insulator nose of a hotter spark plug has a longer distance between the firing tip of the insulator, and the point where insulator meets the metal shell. Therefore, the path for the dissipation of heat from the insulator nose to the cylinder head is longer and the firing end stays hotter. The insulator nose of a hotter spark plug also has a greater surface area that is exposed to more of the ignited gases and is easily heated to higher temperatures. A colder spark plug functions in an opposite manner.
The heat range must be carefully selected for proper spark plug thermal performance. If the heat range is not optimal, then serious trouble can be the result. The optimal firing end temperature is approximately between 500°C (932°F) and 800°C (1472°F). The two most common causes of spark plug problems are carbon fouling (< 450°C) and overheating (> 800°C).

The most serious result of selecting a heat range that is too hot is overheating. Overheating will cause the electrodes to wear quickly and can lead to pre-ignition. Pre-ignition occurs when the air-fuel mixture is ignited by a hot object/area in the combustion chamber before the timed spark event occurs. When the spark plug firing end (tip) temperature exceeds 800°C, pre-ignition originating from the overheated insulator ceramic can occur. Pre-ignition will dramatically raise the cylinder temperature and pressure and can cause serious and expensive engine damage. When inspecting a spark plug that has experienced overheating or pre-ignition, blistering on the ceramic insulator and/or melted electrodes can sometimes be found.

As a general guideline, among identical spark plug types, the difference in tip temperature from one heat range to the next is approximately 70°C to 100°C.

Needless to say engines making more power generate more heat and FI generates excessive heat


Here is another sites take on heat ranges

Heat range

The term spark plug heat range refers to the speed with which the plug can transfer heat from the combustion chamber to the engine head. Whether the plug is to be installed in a boat, lawnmower or racecar, it has been found the optimum combustion chamber temperature for gasoline engines is between 500°C–850°C. When it is within that range it is cool enough to avoid pre-ignition and plug tip overheating (which can cause engine damage), while still hot enough to burn off combustion deposits which cause fouling.

The spark plug can help maintain the optimum combustion chamber temperature. The primary method used to do this is by altering the internal length of the core nose, in addition, the alloy compositions in the electrodes can be changed. This means you may not be able to visually tell a difference between heat ranges. When a spark plug is referred to as a “cold plug”, it is one that transfers heat rapidly from the firing tip into the engine head, which keeps the firing tip cooler. A “hot plug” has a much slower rate of heat transfer, which keeps the firing tip hotter.

An unaltered engine will run within the optimum operating range straight from the manufacturer, but if you make modifications such as a turbo, supercharger, increase compression, timing changes, use of alternate fuels, or sustained use of nitrous oxide, these can alter the plug tip temperature and may necessitate a colder plug. A rule of thumb is, one heat range colder per modification or one heat range colder for every 75–100hp you increase. In identical spark plug types, the difference from one full heat range to the next is the ability to remove 70°C to 100°C from the combustion chamber.

The heat range numbers used by spark plug manufacturers are not universal, by that we mean, a 10 heat range in Champion is not the same as a 10 heat range in NGK nor the same in Autolite. Some manufacturers numbering systems are opposite the other, for some manufacturers (Champion, Autolite, Splitfire and Bosch), the higher the number, the hotter the plug. For othe manufacturers (NGK and Denso), the higher the number, the colder the plug.

Do not make spark plug changes at the same time as another engine modification such as injection, carburetion or timing changes as in the event of poor results, it can lead to misleading and inaccurate conclusions (an exception would be when the alternate plugs came as part of a single pre-calibrated upgrade kit). When making spark plug heat range changes, it is better to err on the side of too cold a plug. The worst thing that can happen from too cold a plug is a fouled spark plug, too hot a spark plug can cause severe engine damage

I have read all the internet technobabble on all this many times and every time a car comes in with TR6 plug and it does not run as it should we replace them with factory plugs and it is MAGIC because the cars ALWAYS RUN BETTER.

Maybe I am just Fussy but the cars are always much smoother and stronger with stock plugs.

Your right there are 2 sides to every coin and I choose heads, I like to use my head for thinking

Every Customer that calls me with driveability Complaint have TR6 plugs, I tell them to install factory plugs and they ALL Report after reinstalling Stock Plugs that all goes away.

Going 9s with a TR6 spark plug has nothing to do with Street Cars.

Our Street Car went 9s with stock Plugs and Runs better.

Ted.

[JANNETTYRACING]

Originally Posted by honeybucket99

Ted, Got the plugs and finally got them installed...don't know whether to curse you or thank you Damn those things are a PITA to change with the Kenne Bell, but finally got it done and the idle has smoothed out and there is no more stumbling at take off. So I guess I opt for a giant thanks on the advice and for getting the plugs delivered so quickly.

Your Welcome Glad I can Help.

[Ryne @ CMS]

i have respect for ted, but i am sorry i would not run a factory plug at 800 rwhp, i wouldnt run a tr6 at 800rwhp... a cts-v/zr1 plug are "essentially' the same heat range as a tr6.. they are simply too "hot" for that much cylinder pressure... i am not going to argue that they may drive around nicer, but i will almost certainly tell you at WOT those cylinders arent as happy.... you say " you will not out smart a gm engineer", you are a 100% right, but those are 500-650 flywheel hp cars, not 800rwhp cars... you may have them living at that power level with those plugs, but you truly cant tell people that is good recommendation... you and any other tuner knows at certain power levels there are certain sacrifices that most be dealt with, i think one should be having to run a none gm plug, that "might" not run quite as smooth...
that all being said, i will be honest.. you kind of opened my eyes to reusing the factory plugs, and i think i am going to start running zr1 plugs in cars sub 700 rwhp.... above that it will likely get a tr7ix or bp7efs, or colder..

[MarylandSpeed]

I think this issue people have with TR6's (PT# 4177) is related to them being gapped correctly. The TR6 is a .052 gap plug out the box. Prior to 2005, all GM LSx motors used a plug with a .055 gap. In 2005 with the LS2, they switched the GAP factory size to .040. Because of that, if you take a TR6 plug which has a .052 GAP out the box, and just throw it in a 2005 and newer LSx motor without regapping to .040 (which I suspect a lot of people do), you will have the idle and drivability issues described.

As for the "because GM made it, it must be better" idea...remember..this is the same GM that takes a Borla exhaust, slaps their GM Performance Parts name on it, and sells it for twice the price. AC Delco does not make the majority of their parts. Instead they buy it from other places and slap their name on it. From what I have found in the past, many, if not all GM iridium plugs are made by NGK. If you do a google search you will find some info on this. Most people do buy the cheap TR-6's which are copper, PT# 4177, however they are also available in iridium (PT#3689) and Laser long life iridium (PT# 4477) both which cost about the same or less than the AC Delco ones. They would still need to be regapped to proper size..I will do some research this week to find the PT# for correct gapped ones. The only difference between a copper and irridium plug most end users would see is price, and how long they last. GM wants these cars to go forever without a tune up now, so they put the expensive iridiums's in from the factory.

Also if you want stock heat range NGK iridiums, they are PT#7397, and come properly gapped to .040. Also, always check plugs before installing to make sure they did not get messed up in transit.


All that being said, the real answer is likely to find the cross reference for the AC Delco plug to the NGK Iridium plug, as it is likely the same plug rebanded, and the NGK will be cheaper. I will do this tomorrow if I have time.