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Old 03-25-2012, 09:35 PM   #267
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2cnd chance View Post
I really love the 5Gen design, my concern is I may not like the 6Gen as much. It
has the bones to be a better designed car than the 5Gen, but as GM knows already its difficult designing a successor to such a successful design. History has shown a next Gen anything is not always a step up. I believe the smart design move is to use the 5Gen as a template a redesign from there cautiously.
I too am concerned about what the 6th gen will look like. And that's why I say the 5th gen is perfect for a Z/28 since it draws so heavily on the first gens yet still has a much more modern look to it (IMO).
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Old 03-25-2012, 10:14 PM   #268
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2cnd chance View Post
I really love the 5Gen design, my concern is I may not like the 6Gen as much. It
has the bones to be a better designed car than the 5Gen, but as GM knows already its difficult designing a successor to such a successful design. History has shown a next Gen anything is not always a step up. I believe the smart design move is to use the 5Gen as a template a redesign from there cautiously.
...well said Chance,,,
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Originally Posted by wildpaws View Post
I too am concerned about what the 6th gen will look like. And that's why I say the 5th gen is perfect for a Z/28 since it draws so heavily on the first gens yet still has a much more modern look to it (IMO).
Clyde
Agreed Wildpaws. The body style is perfect. But what we seek and have suggested for GM to produce will possibly place the Z/28 up against the ZL1 for sales. Based upon a potential business model conflict that competes one another against the other sales wise where both models are so closely linked in performance GM may not want to venture towards that direction. Do we want a Z/28 with a production LS3? No, unless they put a bigger cam in it, redesign the exhaust, intake, MAF, injectors, and throttle body. Then the motor would need to be recertified. Will they do that at this juncture? Doubtful. The LSA is for the ZL1. Will they use the LS7 for the Z/28? I think not, that is reservered for the Corvette. Do we want the beefed up tranny and rear axle from the ZL1 for the Z/28? Yes. So how do we proceed....I don't see an answer. Putting an off the shelf LS3 on a cobbled together FE4 ZL1 drivetrain and suspension is not visionary. The stock LS3 is fantastic motor, but as it stands in it's current form it will not fill the Z/28 shoes as we have discussed. Just my .02.
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Old 03-25-2012, 11:09 PM   #269
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The Z28 would need to be less GT and more track. I still say the 1LE with an LS7.
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Old 03-25-2012, 11:29 PM   #270
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Kind of off topic regardless of weight being UNDER 3400 (ATS)... Leave it up to chance at waiting for a 6th gen z28... Gm Has ruined beautiful designs before. The lookers are timeless.. Regardless of trim level ss z28 or zl1 yenko a 1969 camaro is still nostalgic much like our current piece, what do people want a z28 for? Racing? They have camaro R's for order ya know, ohhh street able racecar oh you mean a zl1.

In retrospect I'd love a z28 5th gen, not even lighter, just more track focused, like brakes, ratios, that cool zl1 wheel, lighter materials ( a la z06 carbon ish), perhaps just more organic feeling.

Sadly, I doubt a z28 in 5th guise, it can't make business sense.
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Old 03-26-2012, 12:23 AM   #271
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After reading some of the posts on here, a question came to mind - is it possible to have a Z28 and a ZL1 in the same Camaro line? For those hardcore to have the 1LE to be the Z28, it would only be sensible to achieve a lighter Camaro than the SS is to have GM utilize lighter materials like carbon fiber but then that also might make it costlier to produce. Another alternative would be if they developed a lighter yet stronger type of steel that would be less expensive a process than Carbon fiber, or an aluminum that has all the same characteristics and strengths of steel.

I think GM would have to make the Camaro a little smaller to gain some substantive weight loss in order to make the power/weight ratio something that would make the overall automotive populace say "YES - that's the ticket", but the argument could be made that now your sacrificing, legroom, trunkspace, etc.

Now getting back to the original question, If GM develops the Z28 close to what the major consensus of what it should be, I think it's going to be difficult to really distinguish between the two performance wise because:

1. the Z28 is 'supposed' to be lighter and less horsepower but stonger internals and NA.

2. the ZL1 is heavier but more horsepower

yet both are technically going to be track cars(ok the Z28 will be more for the strip probably ) so aerodynamically and suspension wise about the same, yes?
So, again the power to weight ratio comes into play here and I have a feeling we'll be splitting hairs here.
I know a lot of guys here want the Z28 to have a different appearance from the front mostly but it still doesn't really seperate it from the ZL1 that much, appearance wise. It's my opinion and speculation that I think that GM is aware of these subtlies and in order not to "cross-contaminate" sales, that they will come out with the 'hallowed' Z28 in the 6th Gen after utilizing and perfecting the technology of the ZL1 and thus replacing and retiring the ZL1 - though this might be strongly influenced by market conditions and demand if it continues to improve (as long as we don't have another market upheaval and major recession) All these are what ifs, but either way, for now, we are winning.

edit: I think OldSchool has it nailed
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Old 03-26-2012, 07:34 AM   #272
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Well historically, Z/28s have never really been lighter than any other Camaro. Take first gens, the only reason a Z/28 might be lighter is the fact you could not order AC on it yet you could on most SS models, so a SS 350 with AC would have been heavier than a Z/28 despite them both being SBCs from '67-'69.
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Old 03-26-2012, 10:24 AM   #273
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There is, currently, an $18K spread between a Base 2SS and a Base ZL1...$18 freakin' GRAND! Doesn't everyone think that's a mighty BIG spread, with a lot of room for potential Camaro buyers to fall through the price "cracks"?

How do you fill it? A gussied-up "Dusk"-like Trim Package? A 1LE Performance Handling Package? A "Z/28" model, based on 1SS (with 2SS-like upgrades available)? ALL of them??

The ZL1, for all intents and purposes, includes "all the above" and more...the "ultimate Gen-5 Camaro" utilizing just about every possible "weapon" from the GM parts bin (save the LS9). Which, among other things, aggravates its Curb by well over 200 lb.

The "raison d'etre" for the ZEE is NOT 1/4-mile excellence...it IS for canyon-carving, road course-commanding, maximum handling/cornering FOR THIS GENERATION. Side loads. Maximum gription. Maximum braking in minimum distances.

"Rationalize" its building methods. How much seam-sealer, insulation, doo-dads etc.? Does it really need a back-up camera (most road courses are run in a forward direction...), heated leather (south of the Mason-Dixon?), dual 6-way Power seats etc.? Embroidered headrests/floormats (as an example of non-necessities for a "light-as-likely" Gen-5)? I know what I bought...I bought a Camaro, NOT a CADmaro...

Deleting 250 lb. (150 of which is the LSA's supercharger-intercooler) without deleting the HD ZL1 driveline can ONLY have a positive effect on ultimate handling stats...it certainly has/does for the BOSS vs. GT500...

Adding more power will certainly help...it certainly has/does for the BOSS vs. the GT 5.0...

How can you build an LS7'd car for less dough than an LSA'd car? Leave all the track-unnecessary crap on the parts racks, and build it from a 1SS Base with ZL1 (1LE) driveline and 1LS trimmings. You'd have a $31-something Base + $10K for the 1LE (HD driveline included) + $7K (extra) LS7 = BOSS LS price...well under $50K.

Remember how close in lap times a Z06 is to a ZR1? And their rated power difference is about 130 hp and 150 lbs? Imagine if the power difference was ONLY 75 and the weight was 250!! A coin-toss, most places, simply because, as good as the ZL1 is (and the ZR1 is), oftentimes, less can be MORE...more easily driven by more people...FACT! Which means MORE MEGA-ULTRA-PERMA-GRINS...

"Different strokes for different folks"...and a ZEE-creature IS "different"... I'll certainly admit to that!
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Old 03-26-2012, 12:10 PM   #274
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Can there be a "proper" Gen-5 Z/28?

Yes, unequivocally.

"Will there be a Gen-5 Z/28"?

NO ONE, here, will dare commit to it, publicly, unless/until GM officially decides...

"Will there be a Gen-6 Z/28"?

You better bet your bippy there WILL be...
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Old 03-26-2012, 12:28 PM   #275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2cnd chance View Post
The Z28 would need to be less GT and more track. I still say the 1LE with an LS7.
...that's the model.., as we have visualized,..but I think they have the LS7 locked in to and strictly dedicated to the Z06 for whatever reason. Remember when the LT1 was the standard engine for the Z-28? That top of the line small block was for the "Vette, yet shared by the Camaro (and they still had to give it a higher HP rating for the 'Vette crowd). Why the change in philosophy today? That's my argument. We borrowed technology from the big ticket 'Vette's for the ZL1, why not the LS7 as well for the Z/28? That's the answer to the only real problem in the Z/28 equation. Z/28 = LS7.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wildpaws View Post
Well historically, Z/28s have never really been lighter than any other Camaro. Take first gens, the only reason a Z/28 might be lighter is the fact you could not order AC on it yet you could on most SS models, so a SS 350 with AC would have been heavier than a Z/28 despite them both being SBCs from '67-'69.
Clyde
...very true Clyde. And there is too much focus on weight nowadays I agree. As people have susgested, we aren't going to hack apart the Holden Zeta chasis any or incorporate any new manufacturing processes or materials. That's what makes this model shine is the structural integrity. New manufacturing processes and material will come on Gen6. The base model Camaro weight is what the weight is. As Chance said, we don't want a GT car. I think that is a sound strategy to move away from the added things that are placed into the product that GM feels will appeal to a wide and diverse consumer market, and focus specifically on what do we really need for a more niche oriented performance car. Cut the frills out!

Quote:
Originally Posted by LOWDOWN View Post
There is, currently, an $18K spread between a Base 2SS and a Base ZL1...$18 freakin' GRAND! Doesn't everyone think that's a mighty BIG spread, with a lot of room for potential Camaro buyers to fall through the price "cracks"?

How do you fill it? A gussied-up "Dusk"-like Trim Package? A 1LE Performance Handling Package? A "Z/28" model, based on 1SS (with 2SS-like upgrades available)? ALL of them??

The ZL1, for all intents and purposes, includes "all the above" and more...the "ultimate Gen-5 Camaro" utilizing just about every possible "weapon" from the GM parts bin (save the LS9). Which, among other things, aggravates its Curb by well over 200 lb.

The "raison d'etre" for the ZEE is NOT 1/4-mile excellence...it IS for canyon-carving, road course-commanding, maximum handling/cornering FOR THIS GENERATION. Side loads. Maximum gription. Maximum braking in minimum distances.

"Rationalize" its building methods. How much seam-sealer, insulation, doo-dads etc.? Does it really need a back-up camera (most road courses are run in a forward direction...), heated leather (south of the Mason-Dixon?), dual 6-way Power seats etc.? Embroidered headrests/floormats (as an example of non-necessities for a "light-as-likely" Gen-5)? I know what I bought...I bought a Camaro, NOT a CADmaro...

Deleting 250 lb. (150 of which is the LSA's supercharger-intercooler) without deleting the HD ZL1 driveline can ONLY have a positive effect on ultimate handling stats...it certainly has/does for the BOSS vs. GT500...

Adding more power will certainly help...it certainly has/does for the BOSS vs. the GT 5.0...

How can you build an LS7'd car for less dough than an LSA'd car? Leave all the track-unnecessary crap on the parts racks, and build it from a 1SS Base with ZL1 (1LE) driveline and 1LS trimmings. You'd have a $31-something Base + $10K for the 1LE (HD driveline included) + $7K (extra) LS7 = BOSS LS price...well under $50K.

Remember how close in lap times a Z06 is to a ZR1? And their rated power difference is about 130 hp and 150 lbs? Imagine if the power difference was ONLY 75 and the weight was 250!! A coin-toss, most places, simply because, as good as the ZL1 is (and the ZR1 is), oftentimes, less can be MORE...more easily driven by more people...FACT! Which means MORE MEGA-ULTRA-PERMA-GRINS...

"Different strokes for different folks"...and a ZEE-creature IS "different"... I'll certainly admit to that!
As always well presented Lowdown. There is the profit that's built into the base model that carries over through all models. There are weight saving items than can be replaced, such as the seats, with dedicated racing buckets. As you stated, further weight reduction can be potentially found with eliminating sound insultation and other unneccessary creature comforts or options that appeal to a wide consumer market, not needed for the street/track consumer Zee creature. 19's all around...no nav, no console, no floor gauges, no push button steering wheel, no rear cam...you know the drill well! All the bells, whistles, comforts, options, packages, town car stuff is in the ZL1. It's the 4 course meal of high performance American cars! Can't we just get meat and potatoes on the Z/28, hold the frills please....
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Old 03-26-2012, 01:33 PM   #276
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Originally Posted by OldScoolCamaro View Post
As always well presented Lowdown. There is the profit that's built into the base model that carries over through all models. There are weight saving items than can be replaced, such as the seats, with dedicated racing buckets. As you stated, further weight reduction can be potentially found with [minimizing] sound insultation and other unneccessary creature comforts or options that appeal to a wide consumer market, not needed for the street/track consumer Zee creature. 19's all around...no nav, no console, no floor gauges, no push button steering wheel, no rear cam...you know the drill well! All the bells, whistles, comforts, options, packages, town car stuff is in the ZL1. It's the 4 course meal of high performance American cars! Can't we just get meat and potatoes on the Z/28, hold the frills please....
...and if you want Packages from the Brougham Edition, just tick the boxes (2SS, SuperSound etc.)...and stay away from the weigh-scales...

V8 Camaros:
1SS = $32-and-up
2SS = $36-up
"Dusk" - under $40
1SS-1LE = $42-up
2SS-2LE = $46-up
Z/28 = $48-and-change
ZL1 = $54-up

Now, we're just like those special exposed electrode spark plugs...GAPLE$$.
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Old 03-26-2012, 02:24 PM   #277
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bad@ssCamaro View Post
After reading some of the posts on here, a question came to mind - is it possible to have a Z28 and a ZL1 in the same Camaro line? For those hardcore to have the 1LE to be the Z28, it would only be sensible to achieve a lighter Camaro than the SS is to have GM utilize lighter materials like carbon fiber but then that also might make it costlier to produce. Another alternative would be if they developed a lighter yet stronger type of steel that would be less expensive a process than Carbon fiber, or an aluminum that has all the same characteristics and strengths of steel.

I think GM would have to make the Camaro a little smaller to gain some substantive weight loss in order to make the power/weight ratio something that would make the overall automotive populace say "YES - that's the ticket", but the argument could be made that now your sacrificing, legroom, trunkspace, etc.

Now getting back to the original question, If GM develops the Z28 close to what the major consensus of what it should be, I think it's going to be difficult to really distinguish between the two performance wise because:

1. the Z28 is 'supposed' to be lighter and less horsepower but stonger internals and NA.

2. the ZL1 is heavier but more horsepower

yet both are technically going to be track cars(ok the Z28 will be more for the strip probably ) so aerodynamically and suspension wise about the same, yes?
So, again the power to weight ratio comes into play here and I have a feeling we'll be splitting hairs here.
I know a lot of guys here want the Z28 to have a different appearance from the front mostly but it still doesn't really seperate it from the ZL1 that much, appearance wise. It's my opinion and speculation that I think that GM is aware of these subtlies and in order not to "cross-contaminate" sales, that they will come out with the 'hallowed' Z28 in the 6th Gen after utilizing and perfecting the technology of the ZL1 and thus replacing and retiring the ZL1 - though this might be strongly influenced by market conditions and demand if it continues to improve (as long as we don't have another market upheaval and major recession) All these are what ifs, but either way, for now, we are winning.

edit: I think OldSchool has it nailed




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Old 03-26-2012, 03:36 PM   #278
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With the new 2013 Boss 302, it would be perfect for GM to come out with a 2013 Z/28. These cars competed head to head in the late 60's and early 70's in SCCA Trans Am racing.

We would need to see a HP bump for the Camaro and some kind of track package, which would bump the price. It would be more than a 2SS but a Boss is more than a GT so I think the Z28 would slot perfectly between an SS and a ZL1.
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Old 03-26-2012, 10:39 PM   #279
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Quote:
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With the new 2013 Boss 302, it would be perfect for GM to come out with a 2013 Z/28. These cars competed head to head in the late 60's and early 70's in SCCA Trans Am racing.

We would need to see a HP bump for the Camaro and some kind of track package, which would bump the price. It would be more than a 2SS but a Boss is more than a GT so I think the Z28 would slot perfectly between an SS and a ZL1.
I think your wrong. It wouldn't be perfect for GM to release a Z/28 just because Ford has the 2013 Boss.

The "1LE" package has just been confirmed for 2013. The "Z/28" that all of us want will be something simply amazing and what better way to introduce that to us via the 6thGen.

Chevrolet wants to continue to hold the lead. If you release every Camaro version known to man all in a 3 year time span your headed for failure.
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Old 03-27-2012, 01:10 AM   #280
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyinlow View Post
With the new 2013 Boss 302, it would be perfect for GM to come out with a 2013 Z/28. These cars competed head to head in the late 60's and early 70's in SCCA Trans Am racing.

We would need to see a HP bump for the Camaro and some kind of track package, which would bump the price. It would be more than a 2SS but a Boss is more than a GT so I think the Z28 would slot perfectly between an SS and a ZL1.
You're talking back in the 60's and 70's. Guess what? Today's races in the SCCA Trans Am racing use cars from the 60's and 70's. so I don't see how that relates to them bringing out a spec z/28 car for the sake of coming out the same year as the Boss.

The Z/28 will come out when GM feels it will be worthy of them to produce it to meet the demands of those that truly desire the car for what it's original intention was meant for - being a track car first over a street car.

I also believe that there are planned stages as to when these cars are released to the public for consumption and it is a firm belief among several members here we will not see it until the next Gen. But that's only speculation.
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