Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com
 
TireRack
Go Back   Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com > Engine | Drivetrain | Powertrain Technical Discussions > Mechanical Maintenance: Break-in / Oil & Fluids / Servicing


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 09-15-2010, 08:47 PM   #1
BAD DAB


 
BAD DAB's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 Camaro 2SS/RS Black & Silver
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Richmond, VA
Posts: 8,228
Catch can...what's the purpose?

Can someone tell me what is the purpose of installing a oil catch can? I see alot of Camaro owners with them and just wanted to know the benefit of having one.
__________________


STAINLESS WORKS HEADERS-TUNED BY JANNETTY RACING-C.A.I. INTAKE-TAYLOR 409 WIRES-SOLO AXLE BACK EXHAUST-ELITE CATCH CAN
BAD DAB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2010, 09:04 PM   #2
SSLarry

 
Drives: 2SS LS3
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Southeast Florida
Posts: 1,309
I'll take a guess...

Apparently there is a venting tube (breather) going from the crank case to the air intake. Oil can find it's way up there so the catch can will contain the oil.

Someone correct me if I am wrong!

EDIT: HERE IS THE WIKI LINK: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_an_oil_catch_can

Damn, I was close
__________________

2010 CGM 2SS LS3, born: 4/10
SSLarry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2010, 09:06 PM   #3
MillerTime
Blowin the doors off!
 
MillerTime's Avatar
 
Drives: A 2013 SS RS 6M SR
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 2,390
That's the idea... minimizes the amount of oil that gets burned by getting into the intake...
__________________

2G1FS1EWXD9163847





MillerTime is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2010, 09:20 PM   #4
VR Baron
SoCal Camaro5 Race Team
 
VR Baron's Avatar
 
Drives: 2021 Shadow Grey Camaro 2SS 1LE
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: SO CAL
Posts: 14,285
Quote:
Originally Posted by SSLarry View Post
I'll take a guess...

Apparently there is a venting tube (breather) going from the crank case to the air intake. Oil can find it's way up there so the catch can will contain the oil.

Someone correct me if I am wrong!

EDIT: HERE IS THE WIKI LINK: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_an_oil_catch_can

Damn, I was close
We used them on the LS1 motors in our 4th gens for this reason and that the pcv system on that engine was just awful. We thought we were burning oil when in fact the engine was sucking it up and reburning it!. used catch cans or a modded vertical pcv and a truck pcv with smaller oriface to help reduce the oil consumption. To bad to see the LS3's with sorta the same problem, guess chevy never worked out all the bugs. But it is maybe also partly why, if you listen to them, that its o.k. for engines to eat a quart every 1000 miles or so, at least that was what the number used to be
VR Baron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2010, 11:50 PM   #5
KJS

 
KJS's Avatar
 
Drives: '10 RJT,'95&'14 Vette
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Cut Throat, NY
Posts: 1,723
"Catch as catch can".

Never figured out where the hell that came from....
__________________
"As ye sow, so shall ye reap" - Me

Mine at sunset
KJS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-16-2010, 02:10 AM   #6
SC2150
Account Suspended
 
Drives: 2012 Camaro RS, RX supercharged
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Bradenton, FL
Posts: 6,063
Understanding the need for
a proper PCV oil separating catchcan


Any engine driven hard will ingest a certain amount of oil into the intake air system resulting in loss of power, detonation, and long term carbon buildup on the pistons & valves reducing the velocity and flow through the engine.


Preventing this on a street driven car subject to emissions requires some simple modifications to the closed OEM PCV system.


On all out race applications where emission rules do not apply, this is accomplished in different ways, but proper crankcase ventilation is a must! The crankcase gets filled with harmful combustion byproducts that if not evacuated will cause internal damage to your engine and shorten the usable life. These byproducts include: Sulfuric acids, abrasive carbon particles, unburnt fuel, water, and more. If you do not have a proper crankcase evacuation system these compounds will condense inside the engine and mix with the oil as well as begin corroding internal parts. It is NOT enough to just vent the crankcase pressure through a breather, but it must be flushed with a filtered fresh air source to carry these out & away. In an OEM system, these are burnt in the combustion chamber & further in the catalytic converters.


In an off-road or race application, the engine is normally not used to burn them off.
At the very least drag only motors have a scavenge evac system in the header collectors to pull vac, and anyone that's serious has a belt driven vac pump.....especially the Alky motors due to the amount of moisture the alcohol introduces to the crankcase. Next time your at a sanctioned (NHRA/IHRA) race walk around the pits and look at the dragster motors and how they evac. You will see that any w/a vac pump run a relief valve on the opposite valve cover because if you pull any more than 14-15" of vac you start to pull oil off the wrist pins & rod journals.

I have run a pro team for 7 years and we run most every sanctioned track in the Eastern US and have yet to see a high HP dragster or door car w/out evac.


Want to see whats in your oil? A simple oil analysis will show you how much harmful stuff ends up in it.


The oil analysis will show the acid build up....and no, it takes a year or two before you would see any substantial damage to your internal engine parts.....but an easy way is after 6 months or so of running like you describe pull a valve cover and look and the corrosion from the vapors on your rocker arms. This is the first place it is visible.

More of my background? My team holds several local, divisional, National, & World championships in Super Pro, Super Comp, Quick rod, Top Dragster, and non-electronics.....I am also a graduate of the Reher Morrison Racing engine building school and have been an engine builder for over 35 years as well as having an engineering & machinist background. Take a little time & read David Reher's tech tips......a world of information:
http://www.rehermorrison.com/blog/?cat=3

Bottom line is, w/out a proper evac system you WILL sustain long term engine damage. It may take a few years to notice, but I build motors 6 days a week when not racing and see the results first hand.

There are several other ways for oil mist to enter the intake manifold, the PCV system is the most common with the fresh air make up source (the fitting on the top rear of your throttle body) being the second most common. To eliminate that you need to cap the TB fitting and run a valve cover breather (installed as far from the crankcase vent as possible...ideally you want to pull filtered fresh air in one valve cover & evac it out the other or the LS6/LS2 style valley cover is second best) Then if it is excess crankcase pressure pushing oil vapor/mist out faster than the PCV can evac it you will see it pushed back through the line from the pass valve cover front to the TB and it is ingested from there. The 3rd point of ingestion is from reversion. This of course needs at least one piston/ring/bore/valveguide or seal issue that is allowing oil to be pulled into that one or more intake port and at high RPM's the reversion pulse will "push" that oil throughout the entire intake manifold. It will appear to have entered from the vac fitting that the PCV system uses but is really from one of the cylinders (reversion is a whole different process that is not widely understood but do a Google search and you can actually find some super high speed video of engines on dyno's where at high RPM's...9-10-12K plus the reversion cloud of A/F mixture is actually rising out of the intake runners or carb on a non fuel injected motor). To test for that just place a clean clear fuel filter inline between the catch can outlet and the vac fitting. If it gets oil on the can side, oil is coming through the can. If it first appears on the intake vacuum side, then it is reversion so you have a deeper issue.


Having engine smoke or excess crankcase pressure? There may be a deeper issue. On the LS motors we pull apart it is usually # 7 ringland broken between the compression & middle ring, or the land itself broke off at the top. We also find the top ringland pinched or crushed down on the top ring (comp. ring) and metal transfer along the piston side has caused the oil & scraper ring to stick allowing oil & blow-by. Also, try this: at idle (vac is at it's greatest when at idle or when the throttle blade closes from high RPM's) remove the oil fill cap and hold your hand over it. Does it pull a slight suction? If so, all is good with most of the system and I doubt you have a damaged piston/ring/bore. But if there is ANY pressure pushing back you have a deeper issue and that is the cause of the oil problem.

Now on big cam/stroker builds a can inline on the dirty side, and a can inline from the fresh air source may be needed (the bigger the bore & longer the stroke, the more crankcase pressure is built up) If it is forced induction, then you have a whole new process to deal with......and that is the PCV system works properly when at idle & non-boost, but when you start making boost you have switched from the intake manifold being negative atmosphere to a pressurized component and the PCV system is rendered useless and pressure escapes wherever it can. The solution then is to have one way check valves inline so the vacuum need for proper evacuation comes from in front of the compressor (head unit) through a line run to the air filter.

This is getting a bit long and I hope all can follow this, but if not ask me specific questions for clarification so this helps all. I'll go over every type of solution and the pros & cons of each....and remember, this problem is NOT just in the GM LS based engines, but is an issue with ALL modern closed systems. We just tear into our cars where as the Mercedes or Lincoln owner never even realizes there is an issue.

I also wanted to address the water in the oil. You will NOT fill your crankcase up in short order with just breathers. What happens is each time your engine reaches operating temp the unburnt fuel, water vapor, combustion by-products will gas or "flash-off" as vapor. But only the excess crankcase pressure being relieved through the breather will carry any of that out....and without a proper evac system, a good amount remains in the crankcase and re-condenses back to droplets that coat the internal engine parts as your motor cools down and it contaminates the oil. Every time you heat cycle you are adding more contamination and it is not very visible to just "look" at your oil....you need a professional analysis to see just what is accumulating in your oil and how it is breaking down its ability to protect...but the corrosion from the sulfuric acid is also very damaging over time (I'll try to post up some pics of parts showing just this in the near future). Just pull the dipstick on a diesel 20 miles after an oil change...it already "looks" black & dirty, but is still new and providing the proper protection. Sight is deceiving. Oil might look pretty clean or dirty but an analysis report will show destructive levels of contaminants.



And finally, some have gone so far as to cap off the entire system and run an open hose from each valve cover to near the ground. While this will eliminate all oil getting into the intake via the PCV system, the damage done by the hose with the least amount of air moving past it while at speed will suck dirt/sand/dust/water/and who knows what else directly into the motor via that valve cover. It may take some time (depending on how clean the roads you drive on are) but will result in premature engine wear & failure.


The solution for the street crowd is a properly designed, good functioning oil separating catchcan. Many are available on the market, but ONLY one designed with internal baffling and a good distance separating the inlet from the outlet. Many of the cans seen for low prices on Ebay, etc. are great looking, but are nothing but empty cans with two fittings attached. Do your homework & get a full understanding before you make your selection.
SC2150 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-16-2010, 03:09 AM   #7
DaddySS
Kept The Faith
 
DaddySS's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 Camaro SS Convertible
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Bergen County, New Jersey
Posts: 418
Well there's a pretty thorough explanation!
DaddySS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2010, 01:14 PM   #8
my2SSRS
 
my2SSRS's Avatar
 
Drives: 2015 ZL1, M6, Crystal red
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Great Falls, MT
Posts: 45
So where do you find one of these catch cans, and where does it get installed?
__________________
2015 ZL1, M6, Crystal Red. 13k miles, LT headers, stock ex. ls3 throttle body, ROTO-FAB CAI, 10% over lower pulley, 850 injectors, tinted windows, custom stripes, JRE Tuned. ceramic coated!
my2SSRS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2010, 05:18 PM   #9
Oldrocker
 
Oldrocker's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 SS2/RS Victory Red
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Here and Now
Posts: 387
http://www.eliteengineeringusa.com/ I bought mine from Elite Engineering. It was about a 20 min. install.
http://eliteengineeringusa.com/Insta...vcc-Camaro.pdf These instructions will show you everything involved on the install.
Oldrocker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2010, 05:28 PM   #10
SC2150
Account Suspended
 
Drives: 2012 Camaro RS, RX supercharged
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Bradenton, FL
Posts: 6,063
Quote:
Originally Posted by my2SSRS View Post
So where do you find one of these catch cans, and where does it get installed?
http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101308

Sale until month end!
SC2150 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2010, 08:56 AM   #11
MIKnam67
MIC
 
Drives: 2012 SSRS 6sp man Blk
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Central FL
Posts: 383
V6

I just installed a CAI in my V6 and checked for oil in the intake. It was there so I am ordering one.
MIKnam67 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2010, 04:25 PM   #12
Elite Engineering


 
Elite Engineering's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 Camaro
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Denver
Posts: 1,381
Quote:
Originally Posted by MIKnam67 View Post
I just installed a CAI in my V6 and checked for oil in the intake. It was there so I am ordering one.

Yep, a good Catch Can will take care of that problem.
Elite Engineering is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-27-2010, 06:31 PM   #13
gearhead440
 
gearhead440's Avatar
 
Drives: Yellow 2SS, 6 speed manual
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Concord, NC
Posts: 218
Results after 2500 miles on an LS3

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106556
__________________

Hers & His
gearhead440 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2010, 09:46 AM   #14
Elite Engineering


 
Elite Engineering's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 Camaro
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Denver
Posts: 1,381
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldrocker View Post
http://www.eliteengineeringusa.com/ I bought mine from Elite Engineering. It was about a 20 min. install.
http://eliteengineeringusa.com/Insta...vcc-Camaro.pdf These instructions will show you everything involved on the install.

All the information you need to know
Elite Engineering is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
DIY: PCV catch can install lawdogg149 Camaro DIY & HOW-TO instructions & discussions 57 11-05-2018 04:15 PM
SALE - CATCH CAN SALE !!! - Elite Engineering Elite Engineering V8 Bolt-Ons & Tunes 193 02-15-2013 01:24 PM
Elite Oil Catch Can flht99b Vendor and Seller review / feedback / experiences 20 06-08-2010 05:00 AM
New Install Oil Catch From Elite Engineering BUMBLEB Camaro V8 LS3 / L99 Engine, Exhaust, and Bolt-Ons 25 04-21-2010 07:34 AM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:05 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.