Methanol Injection

[SRT10KLLR]

I have read a couple of articles about it recently and was wanting to know a couple of things.

The articles sprayed methanol and increased the timing to make more power. What makes more power adding timing or increasing the boost?

From what I have read adding boost you could get 15-25 hp per lb of boost depending on what type of f/i you use but timing will get you 4-10 hp per degree. Is this correct?

The two articles I read both added timing to get more power. They were comparing racing gas to methanol injection though. But why didn't they run more boost instead and compare the race gas to meth instead?

If you run race gas and meth can you add more boost and timing or do you run into a limit since race gas(c16) is pretty close in octane to meth so the meth would just be there to cool the intake charge.

[DREV LSX]

Increasing boost does not make more power, adding fuel does. To make more power you must increase the fuel delivery rate. More fuel = more power! Boost needs to match the rate of fuel delivery. not enough boost causes the engine to run rich, increasing your EGTs. Too much boost will not yield any more power and it will just increase cylinder pressures and adds additional stress on the engine and turbocharger. You add timing to make more power because your ignition event happens when the cylinder pressures are at absolutely the highest giving an increase in torque/power. Like everything there is a trade off. Too much timing and you will knock (detonate). you can only add timing until engine knock occurs. This is why methanol or higher octane fuel or intercooling allows you to increase you detonation threshold and allow you to run more boost and more timing without experiencing detonation. As far as timing goes in degrees to get more power it depends on other variables, boost, fuel etc...... Every engine set up is different and will react differently to changes in timing, some engines may gain power others will loose. Hope this answers your question Mr.

[SRT10KLLR]

When I wrote add more boost vs timing I meant add a corresponding amount of fuel to go along with the additional boost otherwise you would have a lean condition.

Adding fuel alone would not get more power. I can flood the engine in my 408 and it would not make any more power than what it does now with a 12.8 A/F.

What I meant was instead of spraying meth and adding timing to an engine currently making say 8psi to make more power why not increase the boost to make more power instead.

Say:

550rwhp at 8 psi on pump gas.
600rwhp at 8 psi on pump gas and methanol injection or straight race gas.
630rwhp at 10 on pump gas and meth or race gas.

Here is one article:
http://www.musclemustangfastfords.co...son/index.html

[DREV LSX]

I see. You would still need to add fuel to keep up with an increase in boost pressure.

[SRT10KLLR]

10-4


Would the car make more power increasing the boost over adding timing using the meth though?

[coolingmist]

many customers use our systems to allow them raise the boost and make more power. We see it in car after car. The methanol raises your octane, while the water soaks up the heat. This allows your vehicle to run more boost in a more safe manner. Things you need to keep in mind are your turbo efficiency as well as failsafe. If you are going to use the meth injection to raise your boost without adding more fuel you need to make sure you have enough methanol/water to keep you from having a lean condition and you need to make sure that you have the failsafe on the system to protect you.

For example, on the CMGS you can program the yellow failsafe wire to always be on and supply a ground signal to always ground your boost controller. Any problem in flow or hardware failure, it will turn the ground off and you should drop to wastegate pressure.

Anytime you extend past the typical use of your tune, make sure you have the proper failsafes in place.

CM

[grocerygetter]

We've been running methanol inj. on turbo buicks for years...it's down to a plug and play thing now. I never cut mine with water...takes a mix vairable out of tuning and pure meth makes power in itself. Also, the burn temp of the alcohol will drop temps. The pumps have to be made for this however. I wouldn't do a methanol injection unless it has a progressive controller either. I know nothing about Cooling Mist products. I do however run a AlkyControl progressive kit on my Buick and Julio makes a top notch product that will flat out rock.

[JANNETTYRACING]

Originally Posted by SRT10KLLR

I have read a couple of articles about it recently and was wanting to know a couple of things.

The articles sprayed methanol and increased the timing to make more power. What makes more power adding timing or increasing the boost?

From what I have read adding boost you could get 15-25 hp per lb of boost depending on what type of f/i you use but timing will get you 4-10 hp per degree. Is this correct?

The two articles I read both added timing to get more power. They were comparing racing gas to methanol injection though. But why didn't they run more boost instead and compare the race gas to meth instead?

If you run race gas and meth can you add more boost and timing or do you run into a limit since race gas(c16) is pretty close in octane to meth so the meth would just be there to cool the intake charge.

Increasing timing Moves Peak cylinder pressure Occurrence closer to 15 degrees After Top Dead Center, Where it does the most work on the piston to make power.

The Problem is we are Limited by the available Octane in the Tank.

Low Octane fuel burns Very Fast compared to High Octane fuel.

Octane is the Ability of a fuel to Resist Detonation or Preignition and still have a good controlled burn.

Water/Meth gives you the Ability to Run More Timing on Same boost, Same as Adding Race Gas, More Octane you need more timing to get a complete burn and increase cylinder pressure without Preignition or Detonation.

It can also be used as a Fuel Supplement when the fuel system or Injectors are right at there limits Although I don't Recommend that.

I hope this Helps.

[SRT10KLLR]

Originally Posted by coolingmist

many customers use our systems to allow them raise the boost and make more power. We see it in car after car. The methanol raises your octane, while the water soaks up the heat. This allows your vehicle to run more boost in a more safe manner. Things you need to keep in mind are your turbo efficiency as well as failsafe. If you are going to use the meth injection to raise your boost without adding more fuel you need to make sure you have enough methanol/water to keep you from having a lean condition and you need to make sure that you have the failsafe on the system to protect you.

For example, on the CMGS you can program the yellow failsafe wire to always be on and supply a ground signal to always ground your boost controller. Any problem in flow or hardware failure, it will turn the ground off and you should drop to wastegate pressure.

Anytime you extend past the typical use of your tune, make sure you have the proper failsafes in place.

CM

That is how the meth kit in the Black Hemi in my sig is hooked up. It has a STS Turbo along with a meth kit from them(don't know who actually makes it though) and it will not go into high boost if there is no meth in the tank.

I have heard that if you are at WOT in low boost and you flip the switch to high boost it will go to high boost. But, if you are at WOT in high boost and flip the switch to low boost that it will not go to low boost until after you let off the gas. Is there any truth to that?

Originally Posted by grocerygetter

We've been running methanol inj. on turbo buicks for years...it's down to a plug and play thing now. I never cut mine with water...takes a mix vairable out of tuning and pure meth makes power in itself. Also, the burn temp of the alcohol will drop temps. The pumps have to be made for this however. I wouldn't do a methanol injection unless it has a progressive controller either. I know nothing about Cooling Mist products. I do however run a AlkyControl progressive kit on my Buick and Julio makes a top notch product that will flat out rock.

I have heard good things about Alky Control from the performance truck forum.

Originally Posted by JANNETTYRACING

Increasing timing Moves Peak cylinder pressure Occurrence closer to 15 degrees After Top Dead Center, Where it does the most work on the piston to make power.

The Problem is we are Limited by the available Octane in the Tank.

Low Octane fuel burns Very Fast compared to High Octane fuel.

Octane is the Ability of a fuel to Resist Detonation or Preignition and still have a good controlled burn.

Water/Meth gives you the Ability to Run More Timing on Same boost, Same as Adding Race Gas, More Octane you need more timing to get a complete burn and increase cylinder pressure without Preignition or Detonation.

It can also be used as a Fuel Supplement when the fuel system or Injectors are right at there limits Although I don't Recommend that.

I hope this Helps.

It helps educate people to what meth does and its benefits but my question still hasn't been answered.

"What makes more power adding timing or increasing the boost?"

I can see adding more timing on supercharged setups to make more power because it's a pain to swap a pulley. But, on turbocharged cars where you can add boost from the comfort of your cabin wouldn't it be better to add more boost instead to make extra power?

[coolingmist]

Originally Posted by SRT10KLLR

That is how the meth kit in the Black Hemi in my sig is hooked up. It has a STS Turbo along with a meth kit from them(don't know who actually makes it though) and it will not go into high boost if there is no meth in the tank.

I have heard that if you are at WOT in low boost and you flip the switch to high boost it will go to high boost. But, if you are at WOT in high boost and flip the switch to low boost that it will not go to low boost until after you let off the gas. Is there any truth to that?

I dont know how to answer that. I know nothing of the meth kit that you run. It sounds more to me you are talking about a boost controller, not a meth kit function. Eitherway, our kit does not control boost, but it can be configured in some instances to cut boost.

CM

[SRT10KLLR]

You are 100% correct. It is a function of the boost controller but if the meth system tells the boost controller to shut off will it at WOT? That is a question for the boost controller company though. I have never tried to flip the switch to low boost during a WOT run. I was just wondering what would happen if the meth kit ran out off meth or malfuctioned and it tried to cut the boost controller if it would work. Just thinking out load.

Back to my original question though.

If adding a methanol injection kit what would make more power adding timing to the tune or adding more boost?


Or both!

[coolingmist]

If a boost controller is cut, it should drop to wastegate pressure. This is how it works in any boost controller I have seen, however i cant promise 100%.


CM

[JANNETTYRACING]

Originally Posted by SRT10KLLR

It helps educate people to what meth does and its benefits but my question still hasn't been answered.

"What makes more power adding timing or increasing the boost?"

I can see adding more timing on supercharged setups to make more power because it's a pain to swap a pulley. But, on turbocharged cars where you can add boost from the comfort of your cabin wouldn't it be better to add more boost instead to make extra power?

BOTH will add more power as long as you stay out of DETONATION.

But Typically as you go up on boost you have to go down in timing and still make more power.

[SRT10KLLR]

Originally Posted by JANNETTYRACING

BOTH will add more power as long as you stay out of DETONATION.

But Typically as you go up on boost you have to go down in timing and still make more power.

So does that mean that increasing boost makes more power than adding timing?

That is with proper fueling and no detonation. The engine must be able to take the additional pressure too.

The plans are to make the most power on pump gas. That will be the low boost setting. Then add methanol injection and/or race gas together with a boost controller to increase boost and take advantage of the higher octane/cooling to make additional power. That will be the high boost setting.

VS

Using methanol and/or race gas and simply adding timing with no increase in boost.

Also, from a tuning perspective I think it is easier to have a tune that can go from low to high boost without reflashing. Adding timing to a tune for race as or meth I think would require a reflash.