Firearms Section

[AZ Charlie]

Nice Pics guys! M1 Carbine is pretty sweet!

[ChrisBlair]

Originally Posted by Est.July.4.1776

Correct Grade (now, swapped out all the non-matching parts)


This was my headboard several years ago; The M1 Carbine is a Saginaw Steering Gear production, still stamped "GENERAL MOTORS" on the barrel and receiver, the Garand is the same as pictured above, but the 1911 is an all matching 1917 production World War One Army Colt, still stamped "United States Property"

Now you're speaking my language! Your 'US Property' Colt is one year older than my US Property Colt. I should have left the original grips on for the photo, but I was going for a calendar shoot. I lost!

1944 Springfield M1 rifle, 1919 Springfield Model of 1905 bayonet, Detroit Gasket scabbard, 1943 Inland Division of General Motors M1 carbine. I say I'm not a collector but that is apparently a bunch of lies!

[Billabongi]

I received some guns from family member after their mother passed and I'm looking for info on them.

If you have any ideas on what they may be that'd be awesome, but if you don't and have a good suggestion for a site to check with that'd be great too.

The only info i've been told is the one on the left is a quad barrel American rifle and the one on the right is suppose to be a authentic British musket.

[Russo]

the one on the left is a CVA and worth about $100.. i have/had about three versions of the same rifle



that is one i had

[kalimus]

So awhile back we were talking about wall penetration, rifle vs pistol (maybe someone included a shotgun as well).

I found an interesting site that I had never seen before where some guys ran some tests with various pistol rounds and rifle rounds. I thought I would share.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot1.htm

Basically, we were all pretty wrong as far as what was "safe" to fire in a house. By that I mean specifically just how much penetration some rounds would make. I would not really have imagined a round like a .22 making it through 3 interior walls. The only part I didn't really care for in the test, was comparing 9mm/.45 rounds with some version of a HD round (hollowpoint of some variation), but using XM193 ball for the rifle instead of a HD round as well. I think later they used a frangible ammo though... maybe in a different test, but I can't remember.

The first piece of write up surprised me the most...

First, we loaded the box with 12 sheets of 5/8 sheetrock, which is also called wallboard in some areas.
Since it takes 2 sheets per wall, this is the thickness of 6 interior walls.

Why twelve? It seemed like a good number and I thought it might stop most rounds.
I was about to learn something.

First, I shot it with my M-17 S&W, .22 LR HP. It penetrated 6 sheets and bounced off the seventh sheet.
That would be the equivalent of 3 interior walls.
And that's only a .22 pistol.

Long story short, we proceeded to shoot several rounds and they all penetrated all 12 sheets and exited.

Anyway, there are lots of tests/articles on the site. Take a look!

[ChrisBlair]

Billabongi-

usually it's easiest to ID those types of rifles by seeing the lockplate side of the rifle

[Mr_Draco]

Originally Posted by kalimus

So awhile back we were talking about wall penetration, rifle vs pistol (maybe someone included a shotgun as well).

I found an interesting site that I had never seen before where some guys ran some tests with various pistol rounds and rifle rounds. I thought I would share.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot1.htm

Basically, we were all pretty wrong as far as what was "safe" to fire in a house. By that I mean specifically just how much penetration some rounds would make. I would not really have imagined a round like a .22 making it through 3 interior walls. The only part I didn't really care for in the test, was comparing 9mm/.45 rounds with some version of a HD round (hollowpoint of some variation), but using XM193 ball for the rifle instead of a HD round as well. I think later they used a frangible ammo though... maybe in a different test, but I can't remember.

The first piece of write up surprised me the most...

Anyway, there are lots of tests/articles on the site. Take a look!

Thanks for the post. People don't believe me when I say that I've seen shots fired in a home go completely through the house and exit the residence. This test only covers 6 interior sheet rock walls but I can't think of any firing position in my house that has this many in any given direction, they all have 3 interior walls before the exterior wall or less.

[kalimus]

Originally Posted by Mr_Draco

Thanks for the post. People don't believe me when I say that I've seen shots fired in a home go completely through the house and exit the residence. This test only covers 6 interior sheet rock walls but I can't think of any firing position in my house that has this many in any given direction, they all have 3 interior walls before the exterior wall or less.

There is another test that they do, when they put sheets up, and then a water jug, and then bricks. The XM193 broke the bricks, but didn't make it all the way through. Most importantly about that test, is they said it was inconsistent. The next time they shot it, it didn't make it to the bricks.

Either way, I'm not as surprised with FMJ 5.56, but I was really surprised how far some of those handgun rounds penetrated, especially being that they were HP. I'm still making my way through some of their other "box o' whatevers".... makes me want to do some of my own testing next time I go shooting.

[CamaroSkooter]

Originally Posted by kalimus

So awhile back we were talking about wall penetration, rifle vs pistol (maybe someone included a shotgun as well).

I found an interesting site that I had never seen before where some guys ran some tests with various pistol rounds and rifle rounds. I thought I would share.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot1.htm

Basically, we were all pretty wrong as far as what was "safe" to fire in a house. By that I mean specifically just how much penetration some rounds would make. I would not really have imagined a round like a .22 making it through 3 interior walls. The only part I didn't really care for in the test, was comparing 9mm/.45 rounds with some version of a HD round (hollowpoint of some variation), but using XM193 ball for the rifle instead of a HD round as well. I think later they used a frangible ammo though... maybe in a different test, but I can't remember.

The first piece of write up surprised me the most...

Anyway, there are lots of tests/articles on the site. Take a look!

Originally Posted by Mr_Draco

Thanks for the post. People don't believe me when I say that I've seen shots fired in a home go completely through the house and exit the residence. This test only covers 6 interior sheet rock walls but I can't think of any firing position in my house that has this many in any given direction, they all have 3 interior walls before the exterior wall or less.

Originally Posted by kalimus

There is another test that they do, when they put sheets up, and then a water jug, and then bricks. The XM193 broke the bricks, but didn't make it all the way through. Most importantly about that test, is they said it was inconsistent. The next time they shot it, it didn't make it to the bricks.

Either way, I'm not as surprised with FMJ 5.56, but I was really surprised how far some of those handgun rounds penetrated, especially being that they were HP. I'm still making my way through some of their other "box o' whatevers".... makes me want to do some of my own testing next time I go shooting.

While this is certainly interesting, I believe there is a flaw in their testing method. I have never seen a house that had two walls spaced an inch or two apart that only had an inch or two of clear space between the drywall sheets.

For a projectile to travel through two walls of a normal house, it has to penetrate two drywall sheets spaced roughly four inches apart, then travel upwards of eight feet before penetrating another two drywall sheets spaced four inches apart.

And that's all assuming the projectile is hitting each wall completely perpendicular to the wall face. Even a slight angle of incidence to the face of the wall will create some seriously awkward ballistics.

A projectile loses energy every foot that it travels. It loses a significant amount of energy when it has to penetrated a medium that is 5/8" thick, regardless of its composition.

I have a feeling that most rounds, after traveling through a single typical wall will have a tendency to tumble once they come out the other side.

This test doesn't allow any of the projectiles to replicate any type of tumbling between walls. The projectiles immediately engage another sheet every inch or two, and therefore have no space for any tumbling effect to take place.

I would certainly be curious to see this same set of tests performed with a more accurate depiction of typical home construction with appropriate air gaps between each wall.

[Dangeruss]

Originally Posted by CamaroSkooter

While this is certainly interesting, I believe there is a flaw in their testing method. I have never seen a house that had two walls spaced an inch or two apart that only had an inch or two of clear space between the drywall sheets.

For a projectile to travel through two walls of a normal house, it has to penetrate two drywall sheets spaced roughly four inches apart, then travel upwards of eight feet before penetrating another two drywall sheets spaced four inches apart.

And that's all assuming the projectile is hitting each wall completely perpendicular to the wall face. Even a slight angle of incidence to the face of the wall will create some seriously awkward ballistics.

A projectile loses energy every foot that it travels. It loses a significant amount of energy when it has to penetrated a medium that is 5/8" thick, regardless of its composition.

I have a feeling that most rounds, after traveling through a single typical wall will have a tendency to tumble once they come out the other side.

This test doesn't allow any of the projectiles to replicate any type of tumbling between walls. The projectiles immediately engage another sheet every inch or two, and therefore have no space for any tumbling effect to take place.

I would certainly be curious to see this same set of tests performed with a more accurate depiction of typical home construction with appropriate air gaps between each wall.

I agree. They're creating the "perfect storm" by shooting straight through layers of sheetrock, but we all know there's a whole lot more inside a typical home. What about studs, electrical wire, brick, furniture or even insulation? All these things can either slow or change the trajectory of the bullet.

[kalimus]

Originally Posted by CamaroSkooter

This test doesn't allow any of the projectiles to replicate any type of tumbling between walls. The projectiles immediately engage another sheet every inch or two, and therefore have no space for any tumbling effect to take place.

I would certainly be curious to see this same set of tests performed with a more accurate depiction of typical home construction with appropriate air gaps between each wall.

Originally Posted by Dangeruss

I agree. They're creating the "perfect storm" by shooting straight through layers of sheetrock, but we all know there's a whole lot more inside a typical home. What about studs, electrical wire, brick, furniture or even insulation? All these things can either slow or change the trajectory of the bullet.

I agree with both of you, but it's the closest "test" I could really find on the subject. I don't know about the insulation thought... most homes interior walls don't use insulation. They only use it on the exterior walls. Yes, I know some homes do, but a surprising amount do not.

I'd like to find someone from out of town that needs some "rennovation" to their home Maybe Mythbusters will do a more accurate test if I write in? Then again, maybe my curiousity will get the better of me... there are some deserts out here, and all I would need are the same materials and about 100 feet to stage a 3-room wall set up. Maybe I'll set aside some money over the next couple of months and do some of my own testing....

My friends and I have everything from a .22 to a 30-06, and multiple ammo types for each firearm...

If I decide to do this, I'll be back here asking for everyone's input to the test conditions to make sure I don't miss anything.

[Dangeruss]

Originally Posted by kalimus

I agree with both of you, but it's the closest "test" I could really find on the subject. I don't know about the insulation thought... most homes interior walls don't use insulation. They only use it on the exterior walls. Yes, I know some homes do, but a surprising amount do not.

I'd like to find someone from out of town that needs some "rennovation" to their home Maybe Mythbusters will do a more accurate test if I write in? Then again, maybe my curiousity will get the better of me... there are some deserts out here, and all I would need are the same materials and about 100 feet to stage a 3-room wall set up. Maybe I'll set aside some money over the next couple of months and do some of my own testing....

My friends and I have everything from a .22 to a 30-06, and multiple ammo types for each firearm...

If I decide to do this, I'll be back here asking for everyone's input to the test conditions to make sure I don't miss anything.

That would be cool.

These pics might more accurately convey what I was talking about. Here are some images I took when my house was being built. Obviously there's a lot more to hit than just sheetrock.

[kalimus]

Originally Posted by Dangeruss

That would be cool.

These pics might more accurately convey what I was talking about. Here are some images I took when my house was being built. Obviously there's a lot more to hit than just sheetrock.

Absolutely. I'm not sure how to test something like framework, since the chance to hit is is completely random, and less likely than punching through the sheetrock. I want to say that studs are placed every 18 inches, and they are generally 2" wide... I'd be open to suggestions about that...

[CamaroSkooter]

Originally Posted by kalimus

I agree with both of you, but it's the closest "test" I could really find on the subject. I don't know about the insulation thought... most homes interior walls don't use insulation. They only use it on the exterior walls. Yes, I know some homes do, but a surprising amount do not.

I'd like to find someone from out of town that needs some "rennovation" to their home Maybe Mythbusters will do a more accurate test if I write in? Then again, maybe my curiousity will get the better of me... there are some deserts out here, and all I would need are the same materials and about 100 feet to stage a 3-room wall set up. Maybe I'll set aside some money over the next couple of months and do some of my own testing....

My friends and I have everything from a .22 to a 30-06, and multiple ammo types for each firearm...

If I decide to do this, I'll be back here asking for everyone's input to the test conditions to make sure I don't miss anything.

Originally Posted by Dangeruss

That would be cool.

These pics might more accurately convey what I was talking about. Here are some images I took when my house was being built. Obviously there's a lot more to hit than just sheetrock.

Originally Posted by kalimus

Absolutely. I'm not sure how to test something like framework, since the chance to hit is is completely random, and less likely than punching through the sheetrock. I want to say that studs are placed every 18 inches, and they are generally 2" wide... I'd be open to suggestions about that...

That would absolutely be cool. I'd love to be able to do that kind of testing.

Typical home construction studs are 18" apart on center. And yeah, a round hitting a stud would be a whole different issue from just hitting drywall. So, to plan for that, you simply mark the wall where the studs are located to know where to aim.

For the sake of "worst-case scenario" you'd want to test the walls without anything inside them. But to be the most realistic and still be scientific about it, you could build two interior walls 8-feet apart and then add a third exterior wall complete with insulation and a brick layer behind it. Each wall really only needs to be about the size of a single sheet of drywall (typically 4' wide x 8' tall). Another potential factor could be plumbing, but I don't know if many home invasion shootings occur in the bathroom, which would then introduce a variety of wall surface treatments like different tile types or mirrors and cabinets which is probably a bit of overkill.

That kind of testing wouldn't necessarily be expensive, but it wouldn't necessarily be cheap either. And it would certainly require a significant amount of setup time. So, it just depends on how comprehensive you want to be.