Check your cats...

[AquaRSSS]

Originally Posted by calbert1999

I could be over-thinking this; By trade I'm trained to be risk adverse. So, I'd think in the grand scheme of things $300 to manage the risk is a drop in the bucket to avert:

1. Need for a new engine
2. Loss of use
3. Rental of vehicle
4. Loss of other investments in parts (for example gut'ting CAT's is a waste of money to begin with)
5. Legalities (tickets)
6. Challenges passing ride clean tests (re-install / un-install CAT's every 2yrs.) = additional labour costs.
7. Time loss, et al.

Just seems like a very logical choice to me.

I said it once (well, more than once) and I'll say it again..

CATS are for girls!

Yes, illegal, bla-bla...but so is making any emissions modification to your engines, tuning etc. since 1968 when emissions were first introduced, so please, no preaching or whining here. If you are seriously modifying your cars to 700+ RWHP and can't stomach spending an hour once every 2 years to swap cats out to pass an e-test, then you really should change hobbies. Come on now, really? If you are truly spending this level of money and time R&D'ing a car and its mods, etc. then I'm guessing you can conjure up 4 stainless clamps and some flanging and make your cats removable for a day.....and if you have a nasty cam in it, etc. I'd be really surprised that the car will pass the e-test anyway, so the cats would be the least of your worries...

[calbert1999]

Originally Posted by AquaRSSS

I said it once (well, more than once) and I'll say it again..

CATS are for girls!

Yes, illegal, bla-bla...but so is making any emissions modification to your engines, tuning etc. since 1968 when emissions were first introduced, so please, no preaching or whining here. If you are seriously modifying your cars to 700+ RWHP and can't stomach spending an hour once every 2 years to swap cats out to pass an e-test, then you really should change hobbies. Come on now, really? If you are truly spending this level of money and time R&D'ing a car and its mods, etc. then I'm guessing you can conjure up 4 stainless clamps and some flanging and make your cats removable for a day.....and if you have a nasty cam in it, etc. I'd be really surprised that the car will pass the e-test anyway, so the cats would be the least of your worries...

Life's about choices. And for some of us people we make "logical" choices based on the options we're presented with, if no options then obviously no choices, and we all end up having to do what your suggesting above. So, re-iterating the obvious doesn't help. Nobody's whining or preaching here.

If you want to take your cats on / off every few years that's your choice, but there are numerous other people that may prefer to pay a few extra dollars for better hardware to avoid the hassle for any number of reasons one good reason is regular blitz inspections by the police (we have many of them here), perhaps where you are it's not a concern.

Besides, road side inspections by the authorities I for one have many other things I'd prefer to be doing than setting up appointments, and then spending time in the shop waiting for my number to be called to have CAT's re-installed, and then removed. For me that's well worth the extra money "if I had the choice", for you maybe it's not, but that's your choice as well. Perhaps, you don't have much to do, you live in a small town vs huge metropolitain area with millions of people, you have the tools and skills to mess with cars, you dno't have any respct for the law, or you just like hanging out in shops becaue you don't have anything better to do so it's no big deal, but that doesn't mean everyone is in the same boat as you are. So, perhaps CAT's are for girls, but I'd prefer to have good ones on my vehicle and not worry about it rather than getting bit by one. Know what I mean?

[kalimus]

I don't hardly ever post here... mostly because a lot of these conversations are speculation (much like this one IMHO). The fact is that most of the inputs are "this is what I heard", followed by a couple vendors out of the huge amounts of them. So there will never be any resolution. I like everything that Ted and Maryland has said, and both are looking at it two different ways.

But really... Maryland could have sold 1000 cats and gotten 3 failures, and 997 of those purchases could have been made from people that generally drive their cars reasonably. Some other vendor might have sold 500 cats and had 100 returns from people that drove their cars like mad. Ted might have seen the only bad cats in the entire country. We just don't have any other tuner/vendor inputs, so there isn't really anything else to compare it to, except for a very few select people and their individual experiences... just a drop in the bucket.

The point really is: Yeah, when you do extra crap to your car, your cats run an increased risk of failing... along with most every other part on your car. And if you don't pay attention to how your car is acting, that could lead to other problems. But it's not a reason to roll into a knee-jerk reaction and freak out. But really... I agree AquaRSSS the most. If it's that much of a concern, swap them out and in for inspections. No cats=no possible cat damage etc etc etc.

Me... well I drive the dogsh** out of my car and can't ever seem to lift my heavy foot off the floor. That's why my car is still stock. I can't afford to have anyone but chevy replace my broken sh**

The sky isn't falling until LOTS of vendors and tuners and customers all start posting their own pics and bad experiences, and not things they read from a bunch of mustang forums and things that happened to their buddies.

[bluetorp]

I echo the sentiments that the sky is not falling and that people should not "roll into a knee-jerk reaction and freak out". That's the main reason that I chose to post in the first place.

However... I'm glad this thread exists. It means people are questioning. This is really the bread and butter of the hobby. I hope that people are reading this, looking at the different perspectives, and coming away with a slightly better understanding of the factors involved, or with a curiosity and drive to learn more.

Responses like "Cats are for girls" are counterproductive, and contribute nothing to the discussion.

[JamesNoBrakes]

Big superchargers are fairly rare with big engines as far as OEM cars, this may be a big reason why. I know that with my previous car, you had to get bigger injectors and dump tons of fuel down there to prevent things like melting the cats (if installed). That was a turbo that was not making parasitic power either. EGT is no joke. Anyone think of installing an EGT sensor? Seems that would be the best way to go about this.

[shaner74]

I'll just add this - I have no issues with my cats failing behind a large displacement, supercharged engine. I purchased headers & cats I knew were designed for a given displacement. If my engine had blown up I would have blamed myself for not removing the cats sooner. With that said, my cats failed like it was their job. I didn't see any evidence to indicate manufacturing defects or otherwise. I have a stock L99 with CAI, whipple w/std 4" pulley, and headers. I don't hammer on the car by any means. I believe the cats are poorly designed. I wouldn't even use them on a non-FI vehicle. Run them at your own risk.

[bluetorp]

Do you know if COT protection was enabled or disabled in your tune?

[HufferSS]

Originally Posted by calbert1999

Is it just us or is this really rocket science?

Make better CAT's, gut'ing or no CAT's is illegal........ is anyone (Kooks, DynaTech, Magnaflow, Corsa, Borla, et al) listening?

Funny how none of the manufacturers have anything to say on the topic.

I can't speak for Canada but it's illegal either way here in the states. If you move the factory location cats then it should fail the visual inspection and is illegal.

1% seems pretty damn good to me when you are playing with an extremely modified car. Most of these supercharger systems are not CARB legal and therefore are considered "offroad" or "race" use by manufacturers so there is unlikely much incentive to build this type of cat for a manufacturer as the % of users with a 700 to 800 hp car that actually cares about having cats is probably fairly low....at least it has been in the past. The musclecar revival might change that but even if they do come out with a super cat.....you're still illegal.

My 2 cents.

[HufferSS]

Originally Posted by calbert1999

I could be over-thinking this; By trade I'm trained to be risk adverse. So, I'd think in the grand scheme of things $300 to manage the risk is a drop in the bucket to avert:

1. Need for a new engine
2. Loss of use
3. Rental of vehicle
4. Loss of other investments in parts (for example gut'ting CAT's is a waste of money to begin with)
5. Legalities (tickets)
6. Challenges passing ride clean tests (re-install / un-install CAT's every 2yrs.) = additional labour costs.
7. Time loss, et al.

Just seems like a very logical choice to me.

Cats don't create #1 and #4 can be avoided by not buying them in the 1st place and #7 is just #2 stated a different way.

[LS 1st gen]

So out of the cat failures in this thread, does anyone have kooks? If so would you part with your failed cats? I would like to try welding the kooks style flange on to a different cat, but I don't want to chop up good ones to do it.....

[bumblebeecamaro]

okay, so lets say I have a buddy that can "modify" my cats for better flow. does this mean I will need to have another tune?

[JANNETTYRACING]

Originally Posted by bumblebeecamaro

okay, so lets say I have a buddy that can "modify" my cats for better flow. does this mean I will need to have another tune?

Unlikely since the MAF measures any additional flow and adds fuel accordingly

[bumblebeecamaro]

Originally Posted by JANNETTYRACING

Unlikely since the MAF measures any additional flow and adds fuel accordingly

thanks! here I was thinking I was going to have to bug my tuner again. lol

[Matt@KB]

There is some good information in this thread but there is also an equal amount of misleading statements that have no merit or factual data to substantiate the claims.

Originally Posted by JANNETTYRACING

Most Cat Converters are Sized and designed around the Cubic inches of the Engine.

In this case 6.2 Liters, they will live a Happy and Productive Life.

Add a Supercharger with Say 7-8 PSI they 6.2 Liter Engine just became 9.3 Liters which far exceeds the Cat Design which causes Overheating and Failure.

The Cats need to be Double they're current Size to handle the Additional cubic inches.

Ted.

I couldn’t disagree more with your remarks about CATS. And I have no vested interest, Kenne Bell doesn’t sell CATs or tunes. As I’ve stated before, you should probably invest in a flow bench and do more back to back testing on CATS (OEM and Hi Flo).
You’d be surprised at how non restrictive and reliable they are.
Here is our take on the subject of stock OEM cats. I have no comment on hi-flow cats except to ask “show me the flow numbers.”

Kenne Bell has been doing 50 State Legal emissions testing since 1990. All tests require air fuel ratios and precision tuning comparable to the OEM. CARB does not tolerate any product that shortens CAT life. And the SC kit calibration had better be spot on or you do more $4500 tests until it’s right.

AIR FUEL RATIO SENSORS

The only OEM cat failures we’ve seen are caused by an overly rich mixture. Too RICH of a fuel mixture is the number one cause of catalytic converter failure. That is a TUNING issue. NEVER rely on the standard cheapie AF sensors included with a Dynojet. They are not calibratible and become progressively less accurate with age. Quite often, the dyno operator isn’t aware of the increasing inaccuracy vs time scenario. Get an ETAS, HORIBA or AFM1000 like Kenne Bell, the OEM’s and better dynos use.
See “Dyno Test Variables and Air Fuel Ratio Readings- The Pitfalls and Problems”. We list all shops that we know of who use “calibratible” AFR sensor equipment and will list any tuners who use them. This is not an air flow or HP issue. There are +500 dyno runs at 20 PSI, drag strip runs, road racing and plenty of street bashing (20,000 miles) on the company 800HP Super Snake. It has the original cats as do all our test cars.

CAT TESTING

Our tests indicate the OEM cats are extremely efficient, over designed and not under-designed as claimed. They lose very little HP, if any, at stock or elevated HP levels. KB kits have run the Ford and GM cats at the 900HP level on the street and strip for thousands of miles. No failures. Accurate Dyno tests and flow bench comparison data on CATS can be seen on our website
http://kennebell.net/KBWebsite/Commo...aust_tests.pdf
Some tests were conducted on our ‘05 Mustang (4000 miles) and the car is still here ready to be retested and the data compared for any magazine that is interested. We flow tested cats, gutted cats and cat eliminators and then dyno tested the various combinations. None of the magazines were interested on publishing these tests. To determine cat HP restriction, Kenne Bell removes the cats on most of the new vehicles we develop superchargers for. That way we know what the HP loss is. We never remove them permanently except to check HP loss, which is never more than ~ 10 HP max. then we reinstall them.

Originally Posted by JANNETTYRACING

It is Not about HP it is about cubic Inches per my explanation above.

Exhaust gas temps are the same at 100 hp or 1000 hp when tuned correctly.

I disagree again. It IS about HP. HP is air flow. Cubic inches is air flow. HP is approximately 1.5 CFM/ HP. The cats don’t care or know how the CFM originated i.e. from cubic inches, supercharging or engine efficiency. At Kenne Bell, we use a 1200HP flow bench that does just that- it pumps 1200HP or approximately 1800 CFM.

Neither is 15 or 20 psi a “problem” with OEM cats IF the tune (AFR) is not too RICH or too lean at idle and cruise. If you burn up OEM cats, better check your AFR sensor calibration or tuning expertise. It doesn’t take long to burn down a cat. You can burn them down at 9:1 in one dyno run whether it be NA or supercharged or 300 or 900 HP. If the sensor reads 10.5:1 but is actually 9:1, kiss the cat goodbye. Boost has relatively little effect on cat reliability as does supercharger heat. If you have proof to the contrary let’s hear it.

Originally Posted by JANNETTYRACING

It all comes down to Usage, if you have a supercharger on board that makes 30 lbs of boost but never push the gas pedal hard enough to make 1 lb of boost it will never be a Problem

If you have a supercharger that puts out 10 lbs of boost and you use it frequently there will be a Problem.

Again it can't be nailed down to a Horsepower number too many Variables.

If you never us all the power No problem.

If you use all the power all the time it will be a problem.

Ted.

Well, I guess I had better forewarn our customers and send KB employees home. Kenne Bell is doomed. All our customers cats will fail at 10 PSI according to you. FYI, all cars we drive daily make 10 PSI of boost. ‘10 Camaro (10 PSI), Dodge Challenger (10 PSI), Shelby GT500 (15 PSI), ‘05 Mustang 775HP (25 PSI), ‘11 Mustang (11 PSI), Corvette (12 PSI)- and my ‘99 8 PSI Expedition with 8 PSI and 220,000 with original cats. We all beat the hell out of these vehicles. Drag strip, flying mile- we do it all. Are you sure you want to accuse KB, Ford, GM, Magnuson, Paxton, Vortech, Roush, ATI, Shelby, Whipple, FRP, Edlebrock etc. of being cat killers?

Originally Posted by JANNETTYRACING

This is Not a New Problem by any stretch of the imagination, but as power levels continue to grow it will become an increasingly more frequent occurrence.

The solution is Simple, We need Cats Twice as Big as currently available to handle the Volume of Exhaust gases produced by a supercharged engine.

Maybe we could do Quad Cats side by side

The new Shelby GT500 5.8 is 650 HP. The ‘07-12 Shelby Super Snakes are 800HP. None use “side by side” or “Twice as big cats.” All done with the STOCK CATS.
They know there’s very little HP in changing them.
My suggestion is for you to invest in some exhaust temperature and pressure sensors, a flow bench, improved tuning capabilities and better HP testing- and then re-evaluate your opinions.

Kenne Bell has also been around for a while- 43 years. We first marketed a Buick V6 Turbo kit in 1975. And we sold thousands of 17 and 23 PSI chip upgrades to the 84-87 Buick GN owners. Their cars were all factory 12 and 15 PSI. I’m not aware of a single cat failure due to a cat being “too small” or melting from turbo heat. How about we get a magazine to test your 4 cat theory on my personal ‘05 775HP Mustang- the one that makes 775RWHP through the stock cats- and see how well your opinion/ theory works. Remember that it may be a Ford but the cats can’t distinguish whether the exhaust air flow is Ford or GM. Or we can use the ST Motorsports 900HP Camaro which runs the original cats. Lets set it up and settle this. We’d be glad to repeat the tests.

Originally Posted by JANNETTYRACING

Add a Supercharger with Say 7-8 PSI they 6.2 Liter Engine just became 9.3 Liters which far exceeds the Cat Design which causes Overheating and Failure.

It’s obvious that Kenne Bell and Jannetty agree on nothing including the re-tuning of our kits. Its one thing to post up an opinion but it’s potentially damaging to SC kit manufacturers and OEM’s to state 7-8 PSI kits relegate catalytic converters to failure. That is simply not true and the additional exhaust temp from supercharging has practically no effect on OEM cat longevity.
Look instead at AF ratio. All roads will lead to the “tune.”

The OEM’s, Kenne Bell and the other aftermarket forced induction kit manufacturers have hundreds of thousands of 10 PSI applications out there that make great reliable HP through the stock cats- without destroying them.
Scare tactics based on opinions is irresponsible and misleading.
Our advice is to be very cautious about selecting a tuner. Hi flo cat reliability on superchargers or NA applications? KB has no data on Hi Flo cats. I would request flow, back pressure and HP numbers for starters.
We do document any cat failure on KB kits. Interesting enough, we’ve seen no failures unless the vehicle is re-tuned or other aftermarket products are added. So let’s move on to some more interesting tests.

HP, TEMPS, AIR FLOW

How about we get Super Chevy Magazine to conduct some 7-8 PSI HP and temp tests (before and after stock cats) supercharged and non supercharged with same AFR on my ‘10 Camaro at 500, 600 and 700 and ST Motorsports 900HP 9 sec. Camaro. Both have the original OEM cats with some serious street miles on them.
At the same time we might flow test the OEM cats and compare them to their cat eliminator counterparts as others have done on the Mustangs. See http://kennebell.net/KBWebsite/Commo...aust_tests.pdf
It is not our intent to bash or offend anyone but when our Camaro customers begin inquiring and concerned about their CAT HP and longevity with our supercharger kits, we have no choice but to respond to Jannetty’s claims.