ZL1-LSA-MR+LS7+Pedders Coilovers = Z28?

[OldJedi]

Originally Posted by TLSTWIN

Not just you, I also feel this way The bold statement is where I disagree slightly. I don't think there are a lot of people caring about a light "track car". very few people take there vehicle to the road course.:( what a shame.... they have NO IDEA what they are missing, even with the 2SS

I say a lighter track car because the most common complaint is the weight of the present Camaro over the Mustang GT and GT500. Most comments I have read want the Z28 to be 200 to 300 pounds less, NA engine (LS7), coil overs and less amenities. I am sure that not every single Z28 produced will be track bound just as not every ZL1 will be track bound. In both cases some will see track work and some will be garage queens but most will be street driven to some extent. The next chassis is supposed to be lighter and hopefully it fills the needs of the Z28 hopeful.

[LOWDOWN]

Originally Posted by JusticePete

The tough question for Chevrolet is if the Z/28 will take units away from the ZL1 and/or the SS with no net increase in overall sales.

Will there be some dilution? YES.

Will there be a Net Gain? YES. By a number greater than BOSS volume...

Originally Posted by JusticePete

Ford has offered so many versions of the Mustang I have lost count and yet the Camaro with no Vert out sold the Mustang. With the Vert and SS it is outselling the Mustang again.

That was NOT the case in June...a peak "sports car" Month. Why? The BOSS-buzz, bringing folks to the 'Stang Store? Camaro folks waiting for the ZL1 to arrive? Camaro folks waiting for "something else" to be announced?!

Whatever the reason(s), Mustang is there. The last two years have clearly spoken to pent-up demand for a GM "player". I'm thinking the Market is "maturing"...which, to me, indicates more variety is required.

Part of Mustang's continued, and continual, success is their ability to supply varied Models/Packages to answer their customers' demands. And THEIR customers are/should be OURS as well. Or at least "to be considered". In that regard, more variety, done co$t-effectively, is a "win". For GM, and for us...

I'm also personally waiting for a "credible" V6 performance-oriented Model...an LS-ZEE if you please...wheels 'n tires/brakes/exhaust/FE4 etc...but that's fodder for another thread.

Originally Posted by JusticePete

That brings us to the ZL1. Not every ZL1 buyer would have been a SS buyer. That means we are in the plus column for sales.

And a ZEE would add net numbers as well. There are folks who want more than an SS, but don't feel comfortable going outside the protection of GM Warranty/Parts. The ZL1 speaks to those who might have considered an "aftermarket" version with a Maggie 'n such, but were concerned with Warranty. That "market" was already established. Now, one-stop at the Chev Store gets that and sooo much more...for "$ooo much more"...

But NO ONE, in any sort of volume, has considered the "more than SS but without forced induction" crowd...the "heads 'n cam 'n exhaust 'n brakes" folks who, I believe, would be all over a reincarnated ZEE...only THIS time we give 'em COPO+ power AND "as good as it gets" corner-carving too!

Make no mistake, my friends, saving 200 lb. from a ZL1, even without MR, will have a dramatic impact...SS+ and "sooo much more".

Originally Posted by JusticePete

Now we have to work our magic on the Z/28. Price point is certainly a key component, but what other features of the Z/28 will draw in buyers from Ford and a wide range of imports? An LS7 is certainly a draw. I would love to list my Supercar Coilovers, but that won't happen. The ZL1 will be a road course animal based on my inside source BUT we need to find ways to make the Z/28 stand out. Maybe just the allure of the LS7 and a special wheel and tire fitment would be enough. We take the FE4 and run with it. Brembo makes a two piece front rotor for the CTS-V, maybe we use those and a few other 'lightweight' off the shelf bits.

There is a perfect blend formula. We and Chevrolet just need to work on it.

Pete, we be on the same page, my friend!

[2cnd chance]

Originally Posted by OldJedi

Pete, I am going to stick to my opinion that when the Z28 shows up, most likely in the new lighter chassis, the ZL1 will be gone. I could be really off base with this but I think that the ZL1 will be on this chassis only until the new chassis arrives, basically only a 2 to 3 year car. When the 6th Gen. Camaro arrives the Z28 will appear and will not compete head to head with the ZL1 in direct sales. There are a lot of people out there that want the Z28 to be the lighter track car and I hope they get exactly what they want. For me, the ZL1 is exactly what I wanted. If I had to pick between the ZL1 as currently being shown and a lighter more nimble track Z28 car, I would pick the ZL1 but that is just me.

If it makes money it will continue.

[LOWDOWN]

It's "interesting" to note our 4-week survey of "Hot LS3+ vs. LS7" is currently trending at 3:1 in favor of the LS7:

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=155381

[JusticePete]

Ford's 'hot' cars are not selling becuase of style. Ford's customers are buying engines at premium prices. IMHO

[LOWDOWN]

Originally Posted by JusticePete

Ford's 'hot' cars are not selling because of style.

Pete, I concur.

I was a fan of '67/'68 as well as '69 Mustangs. Then they "junked 'em up" for '70...Mach 1 rockers 2' wide, gingerbread tail light panel, phoney front fender vents...blah! Sales plunged. Only the BOSS 302, with 7,000+ buyers, was a "bright light", that year.

Coincidence?!

The '10/'11 Stang is a repeat vs. the '09-earlier version. "Change for the sake of change", IMO. Then along comes the reincarnated BOSS...and June sales exceeded Camaro for the 1st time in a l o n g time...

Maybe ZEE answer lies in two words..."DIRECT competition"...

Originally Posted by JusticePete

Ford's customers are buying engines at premium prices. IMHO

Well, a "proper" Z/28 will have a pretty good tariff as well...

[OldScoolCamaro]

Originally Posted by JusticePete

There is a perfect blend formula. We and Chevrolet just need to work on it.

Great post Pete,...,...as Jean-Luc-Picard would say..."Make it so!"

[boxmonkeyracing]

Originally Posted by TLSTWIN

well, then your request and statement for something that is "god like in the corners" doesn't make since.

how often do you do track days? where at?

actually it seems you are implying that god is an animal. where as I wasn't. I was dignifying him as being better than an animal.

what does me doing track days have to do with this conversation? please spell it out for me. I mean you seem to want to spell everything else out for me. I know I don't need a car like that , I know I probably won't ever have the skill to take it to 10/10's, but knowing that one day I could possibly means something to me.

Edit: Just a quick side note. before life happened I was building a track car. and I was looking in to NASA american iron series. but then what happens while you're busy making other plans. . .life.

[JusticePete]

Yo THREE!

We have simplified. Now YOU have to work YOUR magic on the Z/28. Price point is certainly a key component, but what other features of the Z/28 will draw in buyers from Ford and a wide range of imports? An LS7 is mission critical. The allure of the LS7, a special wheel and tire fitment and badging would be enough. We take the FE4 and run with it. Brembo makes a two piece front rotor for the CTS-V, maybe we use a few other 'lightweight' off the shelf bits i.e. Brembo two piece front CTS-V rotors, CTS-V front calipers, titanium exhaust and we have a Z/28 priced between the SS and ZL1.

At least we think we do. We would like you to do a reality check for us or better yet tell Al you have the Z/28 sorted out.

[2cnd chance]

Go get 'em Number 3! We're right behind you.

[LOWDOWN]

Number 3, further to Pete's list, I might also suggest, as a way of minimizing Base Curb Weight, that certain components of the Base LS be considered...cloth non-power seat etc...but of course based on a 1SS. Also, the much-mentioned "rationalization" of seam-sealer/mastic/underlay/undercoat etc.

For the Marketing types, a "Connectivity/Daily Driver Package"...BlueTooth/Upgraded Sound/Floormats etc....be an Option, along with (perhaps) 2SS content as another Option...

But, overall, Option-limited...and possibly batch-built, with regard the 1ZE (Base) Package...

[2cnd chance]

With the Camaro selling so well why wouldn't GM want more models available? That's like McDonalds selling 1 type of burger.
Keep adding to the fire!

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by 2cnd chance

With the Camaro selling so well why wouldn't GM want more models available? That's like McDonalds selling 1 type of burger.
Keep adding to the fire!

Volume, margin, & development/production cost.

Contrary to popular belief, GM isn't in the business of selling cars. They're in the business of making money. If they can make more by adding the Z28 to the lineup, chances are they'll do it. If they can't ... they won't (unless Lutz did more damage to the bean counting division than previously thought).

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by JusticePete

Yo THREE!

We have simplified. Now YOU have to work YOUR magic on the Z/28. Price point is certainly a key component, but what other features of the Z/28 will draw in buyers from Ford and a wide range of imports? An LS7 is mission critical. The allure of the LS7, a special wheel and tire fitment and badging would be enough. We take the FE4 and run with it. Brembo makes a two piece front rotor for the CTS-V, maybe we use a few other 'lightweight' off the shelf bits i.e. Brembo two piece front CTS-V rotors, CTS-V front calipers, titanium exhaust and we have a Z/28 priced between the SS and ZL1.

At least we think we do. We would like you to do a reality check for us or better yet tell Al you have the Z/28 sorted out.

Off the shelf hardware is the best engineering solution. It's tooled so the investment is ZERO. And in the case of the CTS-V, a heavier car, putting it in the Camaro is simply piece cost. Annnnnnnd, I think the ZL1 brakes, essentially CTS-V brakes, would work just fine.

The only issues are, in your proposal, can you get the LS7 in the Camaro for a "reasonable" cost? and how much are you (customer) willing to pay for premium materials (Aluminium, Magnesium, Carbon Fiber, Metal Matrix Composites)?

For me, and all of us are not equal, an LS7 car with "some" steps taken to lighten the car beyond option restrictions has to cost LESS than a ZL1. But that's just me.

I agree with BMR, and what I've previously stated (i.e. my Ducati), knowing you own a vehicle with a certain capability has value even if you never, ever, ever use it.

Originally Posted by 2cnd chance

Go get 'em Number 3! We're right behind you.

AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! But you greatly overestimate my ability to influence. I do see Al in the hall now and again. Did I mention Al and I went to highschool together? You'd think at least that would have some influence.

Originally Posted by LOWDOWN

Number 3, further to Pete's list, I might also suggest, as a way of minimizing Base Curb Weight, that certain components of the Base LS be considered...cloth non-power seat etc...but of course based on a 1SS. Also, the much-mentioned "rationalization" of seam-sealer/mastic/underlay/undercoat etc.

For the Marketing types, a "Connectivity/Daily Driver Package"...BlueTooth/Upgraded Sound/Floormats etc....be an Option, along with (perhaps) 2SS content as another Option...

But, overall, Option-limited...and possibly batch-built, with regard the 1ZE (Base) Package...

I think you'd be starting with the 1SS and working up (and down) from there for cost and mass.

Originally Posted by 2cnd chance

With the Camaro selling so well why wouldn't GM want more models available? That's like McDonalds selling 1 type of burger.
Keep adding to the fire!

Good question. There is very little investment in a Big Mac compared to the cheese burger. And you can charge for it and make money. Whatever GM does here (maybe they do...............maybe they don't) it will require investment and capital to pull off. You have to ask 1) will I sell more volume? and 2) will that volume be more or less profitable?

Originally Posted by DGthe3

Volume, margin, & development/production cost.

Contrary to popular belief, GM isn't in the business of selling cars. They're in the business of making money. If they can make more by adding the Z28 to the lineup, chances are they'll do it. If they can't ... they won't (unless Lutz did more damage to the bean counting division than previously thought).

Yes, we are in fact like every other single business..................in business to make $$$$$................obscene amounts of $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$