Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com
 
Vararam
Go Back   Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com > Engine | Drivetrain | Powertrain Technical Discussions > Forced Induction - V8


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 01-17-2013, 05:44 PM   #127
Birm
 
Birm's Avatar
 
Drives: Florida Speed & Power
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Pinellas Park, FL
Posts: 3,185
I have zl1 pump and BAP with no issues and I am close 700rwhp on a mustang dyno.
Birm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2013, 12:19 AM   #128
PMJ
Seeking 9s on M6...
 
PMJ's Avatar
 
Drives: 2012 2SS/RS LS3 aka "BlackWidow"
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 397
Quote:
Originally Posted by nyny69 View Post
I think you also need a new fpcm with a tune tweak
After further review, I think i'm good. I did some hard pulls tonight and AFR looks great and all my other vitals are matching pre-ZL1 fuel pump. I'm going to assume it is normal for pressure to drop at WOT to around 48psi. The only thing that bugs me is the FP commanded DC...I'm locked in at 99.6%. I did notice the Whipple tune changed the DC to 99%...I backed that down to 90%, however logger is still showing 99.6%. Any ideas what's pushing it to 99.6? I disabled my BAP, so i'm running the straight ZL1 fuel pump.

Unless someone has a suggestion for me to check, I'm going to live with it... I'm starting my cam install next weekend!
__________________
PMJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2013, 10:43 AM   #129
PQ
Booooosted.
 
PQ's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 Supercharged SS
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Mobile, AL
Posts: 36,716
Send a message via Yahoo to PQ
Quote:
Originally Posted by nyny69 View Post
I think you also need a new fpcm with a tune tweak

Sent from my Nexus 10
Are we possitive about that? I'd like to just plug and play til I get my injectors.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PMJ View Post
After further review, I think i'm good. I did some hard pulls tonight and AFR looks great and all my other vitals are matching pre-ZL1 fuel pump. I'm going to assume it is normal for pressure to drop at WOT to around 48psi. The only thing that bugs me is the FP commanded DC...I'm locked in at 99.6%. I did notice the Whipple tune changed the DC to 99%...I backed that down to 90%, however logger is still showing 99.6%. Any ideas what's pushing it to 99.6? I disabled my BAP, so i'm running the straight ZL1 fuel pump.

Unless someone has a suggestion for me to check, I'm going to live with it... I'm starting my cam install next weekend!
As I said in PM, I did not get the pump yet.

But I just don't like the 48psi on the FP drop. I've been told that it's at the edge of dangerous.

What did your guys say?
__________________
PQ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2013, 12:51 AM   #130
PMJ
Seeking 9s on M6...
 
PMJ's Avatar
 
Drives: 2012 2SS/RS LS3 aka "BlackWidow"
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 397
Quote:
Originally Posted by PQ View Post
Are we possitive about that? I'd like to just plug and play til I get my injectors.
As I said in PM, I did not get the pump yet.

But I just don't like the 48psi on the FP drop. I've been told that it's at the edge of dangerous.

What did your guys say?
So i'm now convinced I don't have a clue what I'm looking at/doing . I just put my Inj Delta on the same scale as my FP and what do you know...all of a sudden things are starting to click (maybe).

If i understand what I've been reading...Inj Delta + Boost = Desired FP.

When you are not in boost, there is a vacuum, so the Inj Delta is > 58 by the amount of vacuum. For example: Boost = -12, so Inj Delta = 70 (70 - 12 = 58). At this point, no boost, so FP holds steady at "Des FP = 58". Inj Delta reads 70 due to the vacuum, however the rail pressure remains 58 (as desired).

When you are in boost, it changes...now the rail is getting pressure from both the Manifold and the fuel pump. The goal to maintain 58psi in the rail...so the fuel pump has to reduce pressure to compensate for the boost . I see my Inj delta match up with FP at 0psi, when i go into boost the FP starts to reduce pressure to maintain 58psi in the rail. So when i get to 13psi of boost, the FP has to back down 13psi (result 45 psi).

This would explain why i see no difference w/my BAP on the ZL1 pump... because it doesn't need it. It is maintaining 58psi at the rail w/o the BAP. It would also explain why my AFR stays rich throughout my pull.

If my new theory is right, then PQ running 48psi @ 7.5psi is actually maintaining 55.5psi of pressure in the rail...

I think this makes sense, but it would be nice for someone w/a clue to confirm.

The only thing it doesn't explain is why the duty cycle on my pump stays at 99.6%...has to be something in the whipple tune i'm missing.
__________________
PMJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2013, 05:08 PM   #131
PQ
Booooosted.
 
PQ's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 Supercharged SS
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Mobile, AL
Posts: 36,716
Send a message via Yahoo to PQ
Quote:
Originally Posted by PMJ View Post
So i'm now convinced I don't have a clue what I'm looking at/doing . I just put my Inj Delta on the same scale as my FP and what do you know...all of a sudden things are starting to click (maybe).

If i understand what I've been reading...Inj Delta + Boost = Desired FP.

When you are not in boost, there is a vacuum, so the Inj Delta is > 58 by the amount of vacuum. For example: Boost = -12, so Inj Delta = 70 (70 - 12 = 58). At this point, no boost, so FP holds steady at "Des FP = 58". Inj Delta reads 70 due to the vacuum, however the rail pressure remains 58 (as desired).

When you are in boost, it changes...now the rail is getting pressure from both the Manifold and the fuel pump. The goal to maintain 58psi in the rail...so the fuel pump has to reduce pressure to compensate for the boost . I see my Inj delta match up with FP at 0psi, when i go into boost the FP starts to reduce pressure to maintain 58psi in the rail. So when i get to 13psi of boost, the FP has to back down 13psi (result 45 psi).

This would explain why i see no difference w/my BAP on the ZL1 pump... because it doesn't need it. It is maintaining 58psi at the rail w/o the BAP. It would also explain why my AFR stays rich throughout my pull.

If my new theory is right, then PQ running 48psi @ 7.5psi is actually maintaining 55.5psi of pressure in the rail...

I think this makes sense, but it would be nice for someone w/a clue to confirm.

The only thing it doesn't explain is why the duty cycle on my pump stays at 99.6%...has to be something in the whipple tune i'm missing.
So basically the injectors get that boost pressure as a sort of back pressure?

Hmmmmm.......... interesting.

Yes, can someone confirm?

I do know that a liquid compresses differently than air. So I don't know if this is plausible..... ???


But it's definitely thread worthy if we can learn something.
__________________
PQ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2013, 06:45 PM   #132
PMJ
Seeking 9s on M6...
 
PMJ's Avatar
 
Drives: 2012 2SS/RS LS3 aka "BlackWidow"
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 397
Here is my reference material i referred too...Boost-a-pump theorly explained (unfortunately it is focused on Ford): http://www.kennebell.net/KBWebsite/C...heory_kens.pdf

It states Fuel Rail Presure - Manifold Pressure = Nozzle outlet pressure (or Delta Pressure).

So I can only assume the PID for FP SAE on the Camaro is missleading as I don't think it is an indication of pressure at the fuel rail.

My inj delta pressure is 45psi @ 13psi of boost, so my Fuel Rail Presure has to be 58psi. Right?

I may go buy an analog fuel rail pressure gauge just to confirm...not sure yet how i'll read it at 100mph


__________________
PMJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2013, 08:04 PM   #133
ducatisl
Emerald Coast Camaros
 
ducatisl's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 2SS 6m
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Fort Walton Beach...surrounded by da** pickup trucks I can't see around!
Posts: 692
It's pretty simple really-

I use:

[PID.6512.PSI]-([PID.51.PSI]-[PID.11.PSI])

In other words:

Rail_Pressure = Delta_Pressure_Injector-(Atmospheric_Pressure - MAP_Pressure)

I won't get into the crappy choice of variable names, but essentially Rail_Pressure is that 58psi goal the fuel system aspires to keep by varying Delta_Pressure_Injector for the conditions of Atmospheric_Pressure and MAP_Pressure. This should be obvious when you consider a normally aspirated car at WOT: MAP values approach atmospheric and that term on the right gets very close to zero, and the data logs will show that Delta_Pressure_Injector get very close to 58 psi

HP Tuner variables can automatically switch to a desired units by specifying the units after the PID in programming struct fashion, ie - variable.<units>, which is important in this case because we always look at MAP and atmospheric pressure values in kPa, but for fuel, we look at lbf/in2.
__________________
Procharged F1A-94 on a 416 LSA block, Callies/Manley/Scat/Melling/Cloyes/ARP/Ferrea/Landspeed/Hi-Ram/FIC/Tick/Alky/ Strange/QA1/DSS/BMR/RPS/Tilton/GZM/Fore/AEM/ATi/JGS etc., built/tuned by me and Innovative Street Technologies
'Mo's Seemingly Endless Build Thread
ducatisl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2013, 01:05 AM   #134
PQ
Booooosted.
 
PQ's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 Supercharged SS
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Mobile, AL
Posts: 36,716
Send a message via Yahoo to PQ
__________________
PQ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2013, 01:07 AM   #135
PQ
Booooosted.
 
PQ's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 Supercharged SS
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Mobile, AL
Posts: 36,716
Send a message via Yahoo to PQ


Sorry, had to. lol

I started a thread about it.

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=271998
__________________
PQ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2013, 09:45 AM   #136
Stic It
SIP
 
Stic It's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 1SS, L99, A6 , Silver Ice
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Pearland, Texas
Posts: 205
Quote:
Originally Posted by PMJ View Post
Here is my reference material i referred too...Boost-a-pump theorly explained (unfortunately it is focused on Ford): http://www.kennebell.net/KBWebsite/C...heory_kens.pdf

It states Fuel Rail Presure - Manifold Pressure = Nozzle outlet pressure (or Delta Pressure).

So I can only assume the PID for FP SAE on the Camaro is missleading as I don't think it is an indication of pressure at the fuel rail.

My inj delta pressure is 45psi @ 13psi of boost, so my Fuel Rail Presure has to be 58psi. Right?

I may go buy an analog fuel rail pressure gauge just to confirm...not sure yet how i'll read it at 100mph


I kinda get what your getting at but what's the down side to having the zl1 pump and the MSD bap? If your saying that the MSD is not kicking in , is it not adjustable to get it to come on sooner and get the FP back to 58 at the fuel rails ? Also as a back up to maybe if the FP was starting to fail wouldn't it be ok to have the MSD bap there as a back up ? I have both but not near the power level your at so it's not been an issue for me yet.
__________________
"My Birthday gift from my wife on 10/19/2010 "
Stic It is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2013, 10:53 AM   #137
PMJ
Seeking 9s on M6...
 
PMJ's Avatar
 
Drives: 2012 2SS/RS LS3 aka "BlackWidow"
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 397
I don't remember if this was ever summed up, but my quick summary is if you install a supercharger on a SS, your fuel pressure will not be able to keep up. My experience is the BAPs are useless with the stock SS FPCM. I saw the same fuel pressure results whether it was on or not.

My personal results:
- BAP is useless on our SS cars
- The stock FP will drop for every # of boost...i.e. when I made 12# boost, my FP dropped to 46#.
- The ZL1 FP w/Andy's ADM FPCM resolved my fuel pressure issues. Hold a stead 58# now.

Andy recommends a more robust fuel system above 750 rwhp, but i'm still running this solution today at ~850 rwhp (manual) with no drops in pressure.
__________________
PMJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2013, 12:26 PM   #138
fab410
@fabSSbuild on IG
 
fab410's Avatar
 
Drives: 2012 Twin Turbo Super Sport
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 864
Would a ZL1 FP with a MSD BAP (together) give similar results as above?
__________________

AGP Twin Turbo, FAST lsxR manifold, ID850's, Squash Return Style Fuel System, ZL1 Bumper/Side Skirts/Hood/Carbon Insert, Havoc Rear Diffuser, PFADT Coilovers/Sway Bars/Adj. Tie Rods/Solid Subframe Bushings/Trailing Arms, Eboost2, SW Retro Chambered 3" Catback, R1 Concept Drilled/Slotted Rotors, 360 Forged Straight 5's, Matte Metallic Purple Wrap, Anvil Carbon Spoiler, Full AAC Lighting, etc
fab410 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2013, 12:48 PM   #139
PMJ
Seeking 9s on M6...
 
PMJ's Avatar
 
Drives: 2012 2SS/RS LS3 aka "BlackWidow"
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 397
Quote:
Originally Posted by fab410 View Post
Would a ZL1 FP with a MSD BAP (together) give similar results as above?
I think Andy told me the BAP would work with his fpcm, but I never saw the need. There is no reason to have a BAP unless your FP isn't able to maintain pressure. I personally wouldn't recommend a BAP for any gen 5.
__________________
PMJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2013, 02:50 PM   #140
Ron_Robinson1


 
Ron_Robinson1's Avatar
 
Drives: A Static line to a pack tray & ZL1
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Centeral NY
Posts: 2,276
Send a message via AIM to Ron_Robinson1
Quote:
Originally Posted by PMJ View Post
I think Andy told me the BAP would work with his fpcm, but I never saw the need. There is no reason to have a BAP unless your FP isn't able to maintain pressure. I personally wouldn't recommend a BAP for any gen 5.


Honestly FPCM is simple to install aswell, plug and play then send it off to get tuned...to easy. I have a zl1 pump & FPCM and my fuel pressure is great with 11lbs of boost and 640hp/639tq rw.

I also heard of running a BAP, zl1 pump, and FPCM without problem. My tuner said no need.
__________________
2017 ZL1 A10: 8.84 @ 156 PB
2017 ZL1 A10: Previously FBO 756/761 (9.6 @ 143 1/4)
SOLD-2013 ZL1 M6:BTR,LTs,IDs,ATI,RotoFab10.84@129
SOLD-2011 SS M6: Blower, Cam, Alky, LTs.
Ron_Robinson1 is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:49 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.