Final results ls3 vs coyote 10k build

[SpeedIsLife]

I just don't get the obsessive need for people to bash something as impersonal as an engine..It's just a lump of metal, cranks, rods, pistons, lumpy metal sticks, valves and springs folks.

Both engines are very capable, very strong and with great upgrade potential..it just seems like some people, including some in this threat (not you Bhobbs) have this instinctual need to bash, degrade and dismiss something as simple as an engine to the point where I genuinely worry for their mental condition.

[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by 2010reddevil

Are you ****ing kidding me? The Coyote weighs a whopping 12lbs, read that again, 12lbs FFS! Since when is that a monumental weight difference? If anything, it showcases Ford's ability to make a "complicated" dohc V8 that weighs damn near identical to a much simpler 2V. You can't remove cams/valves from an engine that already has 4 dumbass. You CAN however, use a competing engine that has similar displacement, as in the 5.3L vs the 5.0L. This is the whole point of the Mod motor vs LSx. Yes, GM used the pushrod 2V architecture to make sure it had displacement on its side. Ford didn't want to or need to redo all of its tooling to make a physically bigger block when they got their power goals done by modifying existing tooling and making better top end components. Bore centers are the only advantage the LSx has on the Mod Motor for displacement sake. Why do you think GM just went bigger with the 6.0 and 6.2L? Because they couldn't meet their target power goals and meet emissions standards with a 5.3L. Plus, they were using existing tooling as well, just like Ford.

The engine masters competition that had the Mod Motor vs LSx, the one where all the stops were pulled and the Mod Motor got all 3 podium finishes.........yeah that's right, 1st, 2nd and 3rd place owned by the Mod Motor. Level playing field between the 2, 4V dohc will ALWAYS make more power than a similar displacement pushrod 2V. That's why the 400 cu in Mod Motors were making over 600ft lbs of tq too, but dohc don't make torque, right? The LSx is the modern SBC. It's in junkyards all over the place so yes, parts are cheap, engines are cheap and everything is just plain cheap. Doesn't mean it's necessarily better, depends on what your goals are really.

Don't be ass hurt because a Coyote would curb stomp the shit out of a 5.3L N/A or boosted otherwise. I've been around both sides and know the advantages and disadvantages of both. To be blatantly brand biased and ignorant of the others is just plain............stupid.

We can carry this back and forth, the difference is I have experience on both sides, you don't seem to have any at all.

You completely missed my point. Everyone wants to talk about how the Coyote makes more hp/l but then doesn't want to compare engine weight per liter because it doesn't favor the Coyote. In the real world, hp/l really doesn't mean much, especially when comparing two different architectures. The Coyote makes more hp/l than the LT1, yet the 5.0 is slower than the SS by a good amount. The previous gen SS got similar mileage to the 5.0 despite making less hp/l and being in a heavier car. I mean, I could find some small displacement 4 bangers making way more hp/l than the Coyote. Does that mean the Coyote is garbage?

DOHC engines should make more hp/l as a function of their design. Handicapping the LSx at 5.3 liters makes no sense because it is negating the biggest benefit of the OHV arrangement. If you are stuck with displacement caps, like racing or government regulations, then DOHC makes more sense because it will always make more power for the same displacement. If the only concerns are weight and packaging, then I believe OHV is the better choice. For the same power, it will be generally smaller and lighter while making more torque than a similar DOHC engine.

Again, the Engine Masters capped displacement. There is no way a OHV engine can compete at the same displacement. Why limit the LSx to 400 cu in when there are factory LSx in the 427 range and aftermarket blocks in the 500+ cu in range? That's going to put the LSx at a big disadvantage. If they had done the same challenge but limited rpm to 7000, then the Ford guys would lose their minds because DOHC is better for spinning at high rpm.

LSx is cheap because it's in many vehicles. The Coyote is expensive because it's not. That's the way things go. That doesn't make one better than the other.

I know you can't literally remove half the valves and three of the cams and end up with a functioning engine. I was trying to prove a point. If you can't understand that, then I can't help you.

The only one ass hurt is you because you want to limit the LSx to make it "fair" when it wouldn't be.

[TheReaper]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

You completely missed my point. Everyone wants to talk about how the Coyote makes more hp/l but then doesn't want to compare engine weight per liter because it doesn't favor the Coyote. In the real world, hp/l really doesn't mean much, especially when comparing two different architectures. The Coyote makes more hp/l than the LT1, yet the 5.0 is slower than the SS by a good amount. The previous gen SS got similar mileage to the 5.0 despite making less hp/l and being in a heavier car. I mean, I could find some small displacement 4 bangers making way more hp/l than the Coyote. Does that mean the Coyote is garbage?

DOHC engines should make more hp/l as a function of their design. Handicapping the LSx at 5.3 liters makes no sense because it is negating the biggest benefit of the OHV arrangement. If you are stuck with displacement caps, like racing or government regulations, then DOHC makes more sense because it will always make more power for the same displacement. If the only concerns are weight and packaging, then I believe OHV is the better choice. For the same power, it will be generally smaller and lighter while making more torque than a similar DOHC engine.

Again, the Engine Masters capped displacement. There is no way a OHV engine can compete at the same displacement. Why limit the LSx to 400 cu in when there are factory LSx in the 427 range and aftermarket blocks in the 500+ cu in range? That's going to put the LSx at a big disadvantage. If they had done the same challenge but limited rpm to 7000, then the Ford guys would lose their minds because DOHC is better for spinning at high rpm.

LSx is cheap because it's in many vehicles. The Coyote is expensive because it's not. That's the way things go. That doesn't make one better than the other.

I know you can't literally remove half the valves and three of the cams and end up with a functioning engine. I was trying to prove a point. If you can't understand that, then I can't help you.

The only one ass hurt is you because you want to limit the LSx to make it "fair" when it wouldn't be.

The Coyote is the most complex and badass engine built in the USA today. GM had a good design when the hooked up with Mercrusier on the Northstar but they did not pursue it due to the cost. We all lost out on that decision.

[Donald]

Same old argument. In the end can a stock bottom end on a Ford do this: http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/...g-bang-theory/

From the article;

The 1,000hp mark was eclipsed, followed soon by 1,100 hp and then, finally, the peak power of the night, an amazing 1,203 hp at 26.8 psi! Remember that this was on a well-worn, stock 5.3 short-block with nothing more exotic than increased ring gap. Think about that next time you hear of someone complaining about exploding an LS with only 8 psi of boost.

[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by TheReaper

The Coyote is the most complex and badass engine built in the USA today. GM had a good design when the hooked up with Mercrusier on the Northstar but they did not pursue it due to the cost. We all lost out on that decision.

How is the Coyote any more complex than the 3.6 in many GM products, or any of the various OHC engines used?

DOHC has been around about as long as OHV. It's not modern at all. They may have applied modern technologies to the system but DOHC itself is very old.

I would take the LT1 over the Coyote every day of the week. The Coyote is a fantastic engine, don't get me wrong, but the power of the LT1 is impressive.

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by TheReaper

The Coyote is the most complex and badass engine built in the USA today. GM had a good design when the hooked up with Mercrusier on the Northstar but they did not pursue it due to the cost. We all lost out on that decision.

2 things about that:

One, the 3.0L DI DOHC VVT TT V6 with AFM from the Cadillac CT6, built in Romulus Mi, is easily a more complex engine. Not that I consider that I consider complexity to be an advantage in a mechanical system ... but for outright engine complexity, the LGW is arguably the standard of the automotive world.

And two, I am 99.9% sure the Coyote is built in Windsor Ontario Canada.

[2010reddevil]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

DOHC engines should make more hp/l as a function of their design. Handicapping the LSx at 5.3 liters makes no sense because it is negating the biggest benefit of the OHV arrangement. If you are stuck with displacement caps, like racing or government regulations, then DOHC makes more sense because it will always make more power for the same displacement. If the only concerns are weight and packaging, then I believe OHV is the better choice. For the same power, it will be generally smaller and lighter while making more torque than a similar DOHC engine.

Again, the Engine Masters capped displacement. There is no way a OHV engine can compete at the same displacement. Why limit the LSx to 400 cu in when there are factory LSx in the 427 range and aftermarket blocks in the 500+ cu in range? That's going to put the LSx at a big disadvantage. If they had done the same challenge but limited rpm to 7000, then the Ford guys would lose their minds because DOHC is better for spinning at high rpm.

The rules didn't limit displacement size, they had a minimum displacement of 400 cu in. That was how they tried to handicap the Mod Motor. They knew it would require some enginuity to make a Mod Motor with that many cubes. You also realize that despite having a ridiculous bore/stroke ratio and being handicapped with a very undersquare engine, the Mod Motor still mopped the floor with the LSx. There were plenty of LSx builds that were well over 400 cu in. The point is that both have their merits. You talk about power vs weight/size. OK, let's use that for arguments sake and compare any pushrod V6 to any similar displacement dohc V6. There is not one single pushrod V6 that will match or beat a dohc V6 in terms of power vs size/weight. Same goes for I6 and I4. Why do Superbikes use dohc when there are plenty of pushrod designs out there? It's like Harley Davidson, their real performance bike is a dohc v-twin. Even Victory motorcycles use a 4v sohc. Again, both deign have their merits with the pushrod engine being simpler in some ways and more compact, but not necessarily lighter. If you are truly trying to get the most power out of a given engine displacement, 4v>2v.

[Moreair1]

The main thing with the coyote and why people use the ls motor more for transplants is not do to potential hp, its do to first cost and then packaging size, yes they weigh around the same but the dohc is very wide up top and that creates issues, and then you have the complexity between dohc and ohv that most people don't want to attempt , and gm did run a dohc v8 motor before the Northstar, it was the lt5 in the early 90s zr1 a very high tech but expensive option, and one thing to not lose sight on this comparison was they where not trying to build just a max hp build that would last a couple dyno pulls and be done, they wanted to build very stout but reliable motors that could be a daily driver for under 10k, and down the line they plan on to adding boost to both motors that when it could get interesting

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by 2010reddevil

The rules didn't limit displacement size, they had a minimum displacement of 400 cu in. That was how they tried to handicap the Mod Motor. They knew it would require some enginuity to make a Mod Motor with that many cubes. You also realize that despite having a ridiculous bore/stroke ratio and being handicapped with a very undersquare engine, the Mod Motor still mopped the floor with the LSx. There were plenty of LSx builds that were well over 400 cu in. The point is that both have their merits. You talk about power vs weight/size. OK, let's use that for arguments sake and compare any pushrod V6 to any similar displacement dohc V6. There is not one single pushrod V6 that will match or beat a dohc V6 in terms of power vs size/weight. Same goes for I6 and I4. Why do Superbikes use dohc when there are plenty of pushrod designs out there? It's like Harley Davidson, their real performance bike is a dohc v-twin. Even Victory motorcycles use a 4v sohc. Again, both deign have their merits with the pushrod engine being simpler in some ways and more compact, but not necessarily lighter. If you are truly trying to get the most power out of a given engine displacement, 4v>2v.

That only matters if you are limited in engine displacement. The only limit on how big you can make a crossplane V8 is how much space you have in the engine bay. The compactness of an OHV engine compared to OHC means that you can fit more displacement into the same physical space. Thus, a particular car could fit either a medium sized DOHC engine or a large OHV engine with equal ease.

Generally speaking, any direct displacement limit placed on a V8 is artificial. Could be a governing body in racing or absurd taxation laws or someone setting 'rules' for a build-off or whatever. But remove those limits, and massive OHV engines suddenly make a lot of sense. Who cares about more hp/L when you can simply more outright power?

[ford20]

Which is why LS swaps are so much more prevalent then anything else since you can fit them in just about anywhere and they make good power. Yeah, sure having amonster displacement motor makes a lot of sense unless you can build a better mouse trap with some decent displacement as well.

That is why the Coyote engines are making about the same power from what I was seeing a few years ago compared to similar LS3 builds that are topping out at around 500-530HP without going bigger and badder. It is another reason why there are 600+ HP coyotes roaming around with 100ci less then 427 LS3's making similar amounts of power. It's why mod motors were outright banned in an engine building competition. You want to talk about power, but you never want to talk about efficiency or you outright ignore it, I'm not certain which it is.

[Moreair1]

One thing to note is now it seems like a lot more people are going with the 4.8 or 5.3 ls, the trade off for the extra cubes are thicker cylinder walls than the ls3 have so it can hold more boost. Here is one such article
http://oppositelock.kinja.com/1200-h...-ls-1613763158

[crysalis_01]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

Fine, if you want to reduce the displacement of the LSx, then take out 2 of the valves per cylinder and 3 of the cams from the Coyote.

Why should I give anything to Ford for making a 5.0 liter that weighs as much as a 6.2 liter?

If you want to compare by liter, the 5.0 is an overweight pig per liter.

How much does the L83 weigh? Serious question, I've searched for quite a while and can't seem to find any mention of it either dry or dressed.

[SpeedIsLife]

One thing that this article DID provide a clear answer on is the final and true weight difference between the Coyote and the LS3 when fully dressed...12lbs. You've seen a lot of people claim that "Oh it's 30lbs more" or how "it's actually lighter than the LS3" or some crap.

12 lbs.

[BlaqWhole]

A lot of these articles are biased or written by people who are biased. A true build would be throwing any given amount of money, say $5,000, and seeing the best you could do with each engine. No matter how you slice it tho, it will never be a fair comparison because they are completely different engines with completely different characteristics. The LS will always make much more torque and have a lot more power in the lower RPMs. The DOHC will always rev much higher and make power far after the LS has tired out. Is either enough to make the other look like a dog? No. I have one of each, a Camaro and a Mustang (2010 2SS/RS M6 and 2015 GT Premium convertible M6). There is no question that my SS hits hard due to the low RPM power and torque. But the GT revs to the moon and starts to pull like a rocket after 2500 RPMs. Although right now my SS has a lot more mods (LT headers, ported IM, etc) than my GT right now (CAI, canned tune, 3 inch catback), it is still evident that they both make power differently and in different ways. Once I have more mods to the GT, the SS will not hang in the upper RPMs. But the GT will never get out the hole as fast.

So like I said, building an engine and then comparing the costs afterwards and saying one is better than the other based off the strengths of that particular engine is horse manure. Give both the same amount of money, and then compare them fairly and see what the strengths of each one is. The LS will never rev like the DOHC. A GT350 intake manifold, LT headers, and a CAI on the GT and it'll rev all the way to 7600-7800 or even more RPM. But it ain't gonna have nothing on the LS under 2500. And even at that, it'll take more time to get up to the RPM range where the Coyote will have the advantage. So it ultimately depends on what you prefer.