[Idaho2018GTPremium]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Let's look at things rationally. Why does GM need to respond? Ok let's go back to 2010.

Camaro SS shows up with 426/400 and 400/400 HP/TQ against the GT's 315/325 HP/TQ. Along with having IRS and other features that the GT didn't have. The Camaro remained mechanically unchanged for that entire 5th Gen. Meanwhile the GT had to up their game by 96 HP and 65 TQ just to keep up. They still had solid rear axle and not as many features as the SS had. The 2012 GT500 shows up with 580 HP to the GT500's 550. So Ford again has to step their game up for 2013-2014. Meanwhile the Z28 shows up. Ford has to step their game up with the GT350 for the 6th Gen to battle it which turns out to be a serious mistake on their part. Meanwhile the GT jumps up another 9 HP (whoopty effing doo) to 420 HP. All the while GM had been done started on the 6th Gen. So while Ford was busy answering to what GM had done, GM was busy moving ahead.

Enter the 6th Gen. The GT gains weight due to IRS and an extra 15 HP which is neutralized by the aforementioned extra weight. GM bumps the Camaro up to 455 HP. So let's stop right there and review, from 11-16 the Mustang went from 411 to 435 which is a 24 HP gain but they had to do it in 2 stages. The Camaro went from 426 to 455 in one shot which was a 29 HP gain. The GT gained 2 tenths in the quarter mile from 11-13 but then lost that time with the added weight of the S550 despite gaining HP. The Camaro on the other hand dropped over half a second off their quarter mile time.

Ok so now we're at the 6th Gen for both cars. The SS heavily outperforms the GT. In 2017 the ZL1 shows up. Then in 2018 the ZLE shows up. All the while the GT350 and GT350R both are outmatched. Why? Because Ford tried to answer the outgoing 5th Gen Z28 and ended up being outmatched by the new Gen of Camaros. So the ZL1 shows to be more than a match for the Shelbys, runs right along with the more powerful Hellcat in a straight line, and proves to be cheaper than both cars. It has more standard options than the Shelby and beats the Shelby at everything. It has the same amount of options standard as the Hellcat but matches the Hellcat in the quarter mile while delivering the Hellcat a massive beating on the track. Meanwhile the SS and SLE proves more than a match for the GT, the GT PP, and can even hang with the much more expensive GT350. The ZLE is just in a class by itself. So GM moves on to the next project while Ford is, yet again, fighting the older and unchanged Camaros. They had to completely rebuild the GT and then do a PP2. The GT350s remained unchanged. So now they finally match the SS which (along with other things) pushes the release of the GT500 back soo far the the entire S550 platform has to get extended for 1 full year.

So the GT500 is finally arriving in the ZL1's 4th MY of production and will be available for only 2 MYs. What exactly is there to answer to? The Demon was a 1 year only vehicle and is good at one thing. And it showed up after the Hellcat had been out for 3 MYs on a 10 year old platform. So in the amount of time that the Challenger has been out it has been on the same platform while the Camaro has gone thru an entire Gen and has made some extreme changes from the 5th to the 6th Gen. The Redeye shows up 4 MYs after the Hellcat has been released. Where are we in ZL1 MYs...?? Oh right, it's 3rd year and on a new Gen. So why does the Challenger get 10 years on the same platform and 4 MYs of the Hellcat but it's been only 4 MYs on a 6th Gen Camaro platform and only 3 MYs of the ZL1? Why the hell is everyone criticizing GM? Ok so the Redeye beats the ZL1 in a straight line. Well the ZL1 straight up destroys the Redeye around a track. So why isn't that considered a wash? Why is GM drawing all the negative criticism for ONE damn area where it loses to a car that is on a 10 year platform and has 147 more HP?? Meanwhile the Camaro has made incredible improvements in every performance category since 2010 while the Challenger has made improvements in ONE are since 2008. So again, why the bias??

GM has repeatedly built cars that performed soo well that no changes were needed. Against the Mustang, the GT is the one that has constantly needed to answer to the SS. The GT500 has constantly needed to answer to the ZL1. Not the other way around. Even now the 20 GT500 is answering to the 17 ZL1. GM does not need to do bumps over time because they do things the right way the first time and then move on. Ever hear of that? Do it right the first time and you don't have to do it again. The GT was massively overhauled for 2018 to battle the 16 SS. And they matched the SS. Did they leap over it? No. That tells me right there that the 16 Camaro was 2 year's worth of performance ahead of it's time. And the ZL1, considering that it took the Redeye and GT500 to beat it, was 2-4 years ahead of it's time. So again, where does anyone see that GM needs to answer to any of these vehicles when they're the ones struggling to keep up with the Camaro?

On top of that, look what it takes to beat the Camaros. More time in development and more HP and even then it still isn't a sure win. And on top of that the Camaros have been the better performance value over any other vehicle available. But let's forget all the details and just criticize the Camaro. Sure. The problem is that everyone complaining is short-sighted and looks only at 1 or 2 aspects and nothing else.

I follow you on this in some regards. However, disagree in some places. Yes, the SS has upped the ante and Ford had to play catch up with the GT multiple times. As a "former" Camaro/Chevy guy I always enjoyed this. Congrats to GM for that. The GT eventually caught up in 2018 and surpassed the SS in a number of regards (my opinion): looks/styling, A10, safety technology options, engine - less torque but more hp, visibility and trunk capacity (important for a family man like myself). I can honestly say that, even though I grew up a Chevy guy for 30+ years and owned two previous gen f-bodies, I like my 2018 Mustang GT Premium PP1 better than the '18 Camaro SS. That is why I bought one (mine also has MagneRide, the A10, and the safe/smart package - again, family man). Another thing worth noting - Car and Driver "hot lap" - the '18 GT PP2 beat the '17 SS 1lE by 1 second...putting the ball back in GM's court. I know the PP2 rear diff. over heated because it doesn't have a cooler - Ford acknowledged they weren't aiming for a "true" track car. Obviously, they had to answer to the SS 1lE, as the PP1 didn't quite get the GT there.

In regards to the GT350R: it is only about 2.5 seconds slower around Nurburgring than the 6th gen ZL1, and the GT350R is about 5 seconds faster than the Z28, so, Ford did its job. Ford Performance released a car a that beat the nearest competitor (2014/15 Z28). And obviously you won't forget that the GT350R has 124 less hp than the ZL1 - imagine if it had similar hp, it would obviously beat the standard ZL1 by a considerable margin - but maybe come up a bit short of the ZLE (we'll never know). Yes, the ZLE is much faster than the standard ZL1 or the GT350R in their factory forms, but it should be, it has much more power than the GT350R and is track enhanced compared to the standard ZL1. By your logic, the 6th gen ZL1 came out after the GT350R so GM was playing catch up since the GT350R already beat the Z28 (and the 2012 ZL1 by 9 seconds). GM then turned the tables and released a Camaro that beat the GT350R. Now, it's Ford's turn to up the ante.

Now, I predict the GT500 will out accelerate and out perform the ZLE on a track. Only time will tell!

[ChefBorOzzy]

The PP2 hasn't out lapped a 1LE anywhere that I've seen. You're comparing tests they ran a year apart and stating PP2 is quicker based on those results. It may be, but we don't know.

BTW, ZR1 put 4-5 seconds on the Ford GT during Lightning Lap for what it's worth.. Also different years.

[collinms]

Ford says they have no interest in lap times for the Gt500... Weird, seems like a red flag. Demon style.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by hotlap

I’m glad that I live in a world where a $64k, grand touring ZL1 that runs low 11s in the 1/4 and a 7:29.60 Nurburgring lap disappoints people.

ZL1 1LE => 7:16.04.

Oh... the pain.

Originally Posted by JhonnyGTR

I think that what happens is that many purists give more importance to numbers in horsepower. they do not pay much attention to all the situations in which the ZL1 is equal to or superior to its rivals, 808 HP, 797 HP, 700+ HP and 710 HP vs. 650 HP is what they see and are interested in and seemingly where they start to criticize.

I will be wrong?

Yes. This was exactly the point I was trying to make in my prior post when I mentioned the Camaro team’s and Corvette team’s responses to our intel on Hellcat. They both were saying “don’t focus on the hp. Focus on the resultant performance.” And they also made it clear that performing around a track was more important to them than nailing the quarter mile. Track performance takes into accounts more elements of driving. JohnnyGTR said it far better than I did. At the end of the day they were saying the horsepower and torque numbers were less of an issue if they could build a car that outperformed the competitor.

And as far as Dodge continuing to tweak the Challenger / Charger....what else do they have to work on? Dodge showroom is Challenger, Charger, Durango, and Journey. I give them much credit for making the best with what they have.

[Idaho2018GTPremium]

Originally Posted by ChefBorOzzy

The PP2 hasn't out lapped a 1LE anywhere that I've seen. You're comparing tests they ran a year apart and stating PP2 is quicker based on those results. It may be, but we don't know.

BTW, ZR1 put 4-5 seconds on the Ford GT during Lightning Lap for what it's worth.. Also different years.

Yeah I saw that discrepancy between the ZR1 and the Ford GT.

Updated times from last year:
Ford GT VIR (not the lightened competition series car): 2:38.62
ZR1: VIR: 2:37.25

Both are great times. Both drivers said neither was trying to set a record, so maybe they both have more in them....either way, those are the two fastest production car times around the VIR that I'm aware of.

Which car would I rather have? The Ford GT.

[waterman]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Let's look at things rationally. Why does GM need to respond? Ok let's go back to 2010.

Camaro SS shows up with 426/400 and 400/400 HP/TQ against the GT's 315/325 HP/TQ. Along with having IRS and other features that the GT didn't have. The Camaro remained mechanically unchanged for that entire 5th Gen. Meanwhile the GT had to up their game by 96 HP and 65 TQ just to keep up. They still had solid rear axle and not as many features as the SS had. The 2012 GT500 shows up with 580 HP to the GT500's 550. So Ford again has to step their game up for 2013-2014. Meanwhile the Z28 shows up. Ford has to step their game up with the GT350 for the 6th Gen to battle it which turns out to be a serious mistake on their part. Meanwhile the GT jumps up another 9 HP (whoopty effing doo) to 420 HP. All the while GM had been done started on the 6th Gen. So while Ford was busy answering to what GM had done, GM was busy moving ahead.

Enter the 6th Gen. The GT gains weight due to IRS and an extra 15 HP which is neutralized by the aforementioned extra weight. GM bumps the Camaro up to 455 HP. So let's stop right there and review, from 11-16 the Mustang went from 411 to 435 which is a 24 HP gain but they had to do it in 2 stages. The Camaro went from 426 to 455 in one shot which was a 29 HP gain. The GT gained 2 tenths in the quarter mile from 11-13 but then lost that time with the added weight of the S550 despite gaining HP. The Camaro on the other hand dropped over half a second off their quarter mile time.

Ok so now we're at the 6th Gen for both cars. The SS heavily outperforms the GT. In 2017 the ZL1 shows up. Then in 2018 the ZLE shows up. All the while the GT350 and GT350R both are outmatched. Why? Because Ford tried to answer the outgoing 5th Gen Z28 and ended up being outmatched by the new Gen of Camaros. So the ZL1 shows to be more than a match for the Shelbys, runs right along with the more powerful Hellcat in a straight line, and proves to be cheaper than both cars. It has more standard options than the Shelby and beats the Shelby at everything. It has the same amount of options standard as the Hellcat but matches the Hellcat in the quarter mile while delivering the Hellcat a massive beating on the track. Meanwhile the SS and SLE proves more than a match for the GT, the GT PP, and can even hang with the much more expensive GT350. The ZLE is just in a class by itself. So GM moves on to the next project while Ford is, yet again, fighting the older and unchanged Camaros. They had to completely rebuild the GT and then do a PP2. The GT350s remained unchanged. So now they finally match the SS which (along with other things) pushes the release of the GT500 back soo far the the entire S550 platform has to get extended for 1 full year.

So the GT500 is finally arriving in the ZL1's 4th MY of production and will be available for only 2 MYs. What exactly is there to answer to? The Demon was a 1 year only vehicle and is good at one thing. And it showed up after the Hellcat had been out for 3 MYs on a 10 year old platform. So in the amount of time that the Challenger has been out it has been on the same platform while the Camaro has gone thru an entire Gen and has made some extreme changes from the 5th to the 6th Gen. The Redeye shows up 4 MYs after the Hellcat has been released. Where are we in ZL1 MYs...?? Oh right, it's 3rd year and on a new Gen. So why does the Challenger get 10 years on the same platform and 4 MYs of the Hellcat but it's been only 4 MYs on a 6th Gen Camaro platform and only 3 MYs of the ZL1? Why the hell is everyone criticizing GM? Ok so the Redeye beats the ZL1 in a straight line. Well the ZL1 straight up destroys the Redeye around a track. So why isn't that considered a wash? Why is GM drawing all the negative criticism for ONE damn area where it loses to a car that is on a 10 year platform and has 147 more HP?? Meanwhile the Camaro has made incredible improvements in every performance category since 2010 while the Challenger has made improvements in ONE are since 2008. So again, why the bias??

GM has repeatedly built cars that performed soo well that no changes were needed. Against the Mustang, the GT is the one that has constantly needed to answer to the SS. The GT500 has constantly needed to answer to the ZL1. Not the other way around. Even now the 20 GT500 is answering to the 17 ZL1. GM does not need to do bumps over time because they do things the right way the first time and then move on. Ever hear of that? Do it right the first time and you don't have to do it again. The GT was massively overhauled for 2018 to battle the 16 SS. And they matched the SS. Did they leap over it? No. That tells me right there that the 16 Camaro was 2 year's worth of performance ahead of it's time. And the ZL1, considering that it took the Redeye and GT500 to beat it, was 2-4 years ahead of it's time. So again, where does anyone see that GM needs to answer to any of these vehicles when they're the ones struggling to keep up with the Camaro?

On top of that, look what it takes to beat the Camaros. More time in development and more HP and even then it still isn't a sure win. And on top of that the Camaros have been the better performance value over any other vehicle available. But let's forget all the details and just criticize the Camaro. Sure. The problem is that everyone complaining is short-sighted and looks only at 1 or 2 aspects and nothing else.

Well stated. Bravo!

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by hotlap

I’m glad that I live in a world where a $64k, grand touring ZL1 that runs low 11s in the 1/4 and a 7:29.60 Nurburgring lap disappoints people.

ZL1 1LE => 7:16.04.

Oh... the pain.

Actually to run the low 11s your going to need the A10 $66k, just saying.

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Right? That is spot on man!! And further, what was Ford's excuse for not having an answer to the Hellcat? They showed up with a 526 HP GT350 and the GT500's picture on a missing poster for the past 5 MYs. They knew the Hellcat was coming. And they knew the 6th Gen ZL1 was coming. Yet they decided it was best to go after the 15 Z28 in it's final year. What was the reason for that? GM puts out a package that battled everything and lost to nothing in it's price range and I gotta hear people complain that it can't do a 1.6 60 ft despite the fact that it keeps right up with cars that can and that GM didn't answer the GT500 even tho it is showing up for only 2 years at the end of the 6th Gen platform. I swear people just want something to complain about. Or they just want every little reason to try to find something to criticize the ZL1 over. LOL!!

Fords excuse is the same as Chevy's excuse, they didn't have the model ready for production. What is Chevy's answer to the now faster GT, or the Challenger 1320, the SS is now in 3rd place. What was Chevy's answer to the HC, they are still behind this 2015 model. What is Chevy's answer to the RedEye, Demon, or the coming 500? Do they even have any plans to compete or just sit back and relax in 3rd place, reminiscing about Ring times. Why can't Chevy sell these Camaros, do they enjoy being the lowest selling of the three.

The clock has been ticking since 2015 in regards to the HC, and 2017 since the 18 GTs hit the market. tick, tick, tick.

[bobby35ny]

Originally Posted by newmoon

Actually to run the low 11s your going to need the A10 $66k, just saying.

You mean 60k, no one is paying MSRP. just saying...

[collinms]

Originally Posted by bobby35ny

You mean 60k, no one is paying MSRP. just saying...

Yes this, plus where are the mustang lap times??? They must be terrible.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by newmoon

Fords excuse is the same as Chevy's excuse, they didn't have the model ready for production. What is Chevy's answer to the now faster GT, or the Challenger 1320, the SS is now in 3rd place. What was Chevy's answer to the HC, they are still behind this 2015 model. What is Chevy's answer to the RedEye, Demon, or the coming 500? Do they even have any plans to compete or just sit back and relax in 3rd place, reminiscing about Ring times. Why can't Chevy sell these Camaros, do they enjoy being the lowest selling of the three.

The clock has been ticking since 2015 in regards to the HC, and 2017 since the 18 GTs hit the market. tick, tick, tick.

Did you not read anything I wrote or did you just choose to ignore it or are you, like others, still just trying to find anything to criticize the Camaro over?? Because I clearly answered and explained everything you mentioned.

Chevy doesn't need to answer the Hellcat for starters. And if they did, then why hasn't Dodge answered to the ZL1's superior handling? As much as you don't want to admit it, the ZL1 is at worst equal to the Hellcat when both are in stock trim. On average the ZL1 has the advantage due to the stock tires. So why is the Hellcat nowhere even close to the ZL1 on a track? If the ZL1 has to constantly improve despite being in a completely new Gen and making improvements in every category, then why is the Hellcat allowed to have the same 10 year old platform and improve in only 1 area? If you're criticizing the ZL1 for that then you should be criticizing the Hellcat for like 5 different things. But you're not. How biased. The 1320?? Really? Again, who wins on the track?? You're looking at ONE aspect and trying to use that against the Camaro because that's all you got. And it is a silly argument. Let's look at ALL the performance categories and then tell me where your all of a sudden favorite car on the planet (Challengers) end up. Dead last. I bet the SLE and a standard Vette could beat a Hellcat around a track without much effort. Care to debate that??

And again, if the Camaro has to answer the Hellcat the why did Ford not have an answer to the Hellcat, Demon, Redeye, ZL1 1LE, and ZL1 all this time? Oh they didn't have a model in time. Well how much time did they need? GM had something ready to fight and beat all the competitors after a 1 year hiatus. I repeat, since you missed it the first time...GM does not have to answer every time someone pushes ahead by one tenth of a second. The GT was the one that had to catch up to the SS. And for all their efforts, that is all they could manage to do...catch up to a then 2-3 year old unchanged vehicle. The 1320 is Dodge do everything they can to milk every last drop from the Challenger platform. That is all it is. It is a R/T Scat Pack with some components from other Challengers that does slightly better in the quarter mile and does nothing else. The Redeye is a Hellcat with a bigger blower and a few other things carried over from the Demon. So far it dynos exactly what the Hellcat dynos to the wheels. That's a bit curious eh?? So is it really 797 HP? Because if you do the math, 797 HP comes out to approx what the 707 HP HCs were making at the wheels all this time. Look that up and tell me what you think.

So if anything, Dodge chose not to provide a car that handles even remotely good. And that's good for them. Ford HAD to respond to the SS, SLE, ZL1, and ZLE. They had no recourse but to. GM has nobody to answer to because they set the performance bar. They set it and then went back to set more bars later. Ford had to reach that bar. And more than likely, the Camaro will set the bar again. When Dodge makes something that not only goes fast in a straight line but also can at least compete on a track without looking like a joke then the Camaro will have something to battle. When Ford stops coming late to the table to battle Camaros that were put out years ago, then the Camaro might have some competition. When the Mustang gets the proper coolers so they don't overheat, then the Camaro might have their hands full. When Mustangs don't have excessive engine, drivetrain, suspension, and other mechanical issues, then the Camaro might have something to worry about. Until then I don't see how they should be worried about any of the competition. Basically, the competition is a joke to the Camaro.

[Fraxum]

Originally Posted by hotlap

I’m glad that I live in a world where a $64k, grand touring ZL1 that runs low 11s in the 1/4 and a 7:29.60 Nurburgring lap disappoints people.

ZL1 1LE => 7:16.04.

Oh... the pain.

No disappointment here except I wish my Z could hit a 10. Maybe with the new drag racing Ediff update. The people disappointed with the ZL1 do not own one. I am not even disappointed with my 5th gen ZL1. But I wish GM did not not have to buy it back. That Z took a ton of criticism but was a blast to drive.

Hats off to Ford for the new GT500 and the Mustang updates. And Ford has the advantage of better supporting those who want to mod for more performance. Not much from Chevy on this front.

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Did you not read anything I wrote or did you just choose to ignore it or are you, like others, still just trying to find anything to criticize the Camaro over?? Because I clearly answered and explained everything you mentioned.

Chevy doesn't need to answer the Hellcat for starters. And if they did, then why hasn't Dodge answered to the ZL1's superior handling? As much as you don't want to admit it, the ZL1 is at worst equal to the Hellcat when both are in stock trim. On average the ZL1 has the advantage due to the stock tires. So why is the Hellcat nowhere even close to the ZL1 on a track? If the ZL1 has to constantly improve despite being in a completely new Gen and making improvements in every category, then why is the Hellcat allowed to have the same 10 year old platform and improve in only 1 area? If you're criticizing the ZL1 for that then you should be criticizing the Hellcat for like 5 different things. But you're not. How biased. The 1320?? Really? Again, who wins on the track?? You're looking at ONE aspect and trying to use that against the Camaro because that's all you got. And it is a silly argument. Let's look at ALL the performance categories and then tell me where your all of a sudden favorite car on the planet (Challengers) end up. Dead last. I bet the SLE and a standard Vette could beat a Hellcat around a track without much effort. Care to debate that??

And again, if the Camaro has to answer the Hellcat the why did Ford not have an answer to the Hellcat, Demon, Redeye, ZL1 1LE, and ZL1 all this time? Oh they didn't have a model in time. Well how much time did they need? GM had something ready to fight and beat all the competitors after a 1 year hiatus. I repeat, since you missed it the first time...GM does not have to answer every time someone pushes ahead by one tenth of a second. The GT was the one that had to catch up to the SS. And for all their efforts, that is all they could manage to do...catch up to a then 2-3 year old unchanged vehicle. The 1320 is Dodge do everything they can to milk every last drop from the Challenger platform. That is all it is. It is a R/T Scat Pack with some components from other Challengers that does slightly better in the quarter mile and does nothing else. The Redeye is a Hellcat with a bigger blower and a few other things carried over from the Demon. So far it dynos exactly what the Hellcat dynos to the wheels. That's a bit curious eh?? So is it really 797 HP? Because if you do the math, 797 HP comes out to approx what the 707 HP HCs were making at the wheels all this time. Look that up and tell me what you think.

So if anything, Dodge chose not to provide a car that handles even remotely good. And that's good for them. Ford HAD to respond to the SS, SLE, ZL1, and ZLE. They had no recourse but to. GM has nobody to answer to because they set the performance bar. They set it and then went back to set more bars later. Ford had to reach that bar. And more than likely, the Camaro will set the bar again. When Dodge makes something that not only goes fast in a straight line but also can at least compete on a track without looking like a joke then the Camaro will have something to battle. When Ford stops coming late to the table to battle Camaros that were put out years ago, then the Camaro might have some competition. When the Mustang gets the proper coolers so they don't overheat, then the Camaro might have their hands full. When Mustangs don't have excessive engine, drivetrain, suspension, and other mechanical issues, then the Camaro might have something to worry about. Until then I don't see how they should be worried about any of the competition. Basically, the competition is a joke to the Camaro.

You can ramble on all you want but it doesn't change the facts. Presently the SS and ZL1 are, or soon will be the slowest of all three manufacturers offerings. When is the 7th Gen due?

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by newmoon

You can ramble on all you want but it doesn't change the facts. Presently the SS and ZL1 are, or soon will be the slowest of all three manufacturers offerings. When is the 7th Gen due?

This is such a selective BS statement. Nothing is slowed than a manual Mustang GT and you know it!