[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Shelby is Ford's Corvette. Has been since before the first Camaro left the assembly line.

Say that quietly, the Mustang bois will get upset.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by ST1LE

Say that quietly, the Mustang bois will get upset.

I've said the same over on C6G. Many times.

Don't get me wrong, the C8 team isn't losing sleep over GT500, but they are also not letting it out of their sight. Primary competitors are clearly Porsche / Ferrari / McLaren. But Jaguar F-Type, Shelby GT500, Mercedes AMG GT and Nissan GTR are all in the "second ring" of competitors on the landscape. All of them would like to punch upward to compete with Z06 / ZR1, just like Corvette for years has had to punch upward to hit 911 / 458 / 488 / 570s / 720s.

Competitor Intel isn't just about who you are targeting, it's also about who is targeting you.

[Fraxum]

Originally Posted by ZRacerLE

They clearly have. I believe everything the dems say. Super, water tight cases.

Classy. There are beliefs and then there is reality.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by Fraxum

Yes there have been a number of ZLE buyers disappointed by the ride and who sold thier ZLE. A number of them are sitting around. But if you do not track there is no point in buying the ZLE. The standard ZL1 is awesome on a race track and is an all day GT long distance cruiser. An iron fist in a velvet glove.

Some people just need to have the top of the line no matter what. Only after living with it do they realize that it might not be the best fit for them.

Originally Posted by bobby35ny

Ford guys that post here, NEVER consider price paid, LOL.
You are 100% correct. 25k price difference.

As I have said before when comparing cars MSRP to MSRP is still the best way to go. There are just way to many variables when talking about price YOU paid vs price OTHERS paid. I get what you are saying but just for the sake of comparing cars I think its easier to talk MSRP to MSRP.

Originally Posted by Rodan

Yet again, you can't even get it right when you're trying to compare apples and oranges...

ZL1 A10 base price is $64590 for 2020.

Now, if you want to participate in the conversation, go read post #5517, because what we're talking about is comparably equipped cars, and real world prices.

according to the price list on M6G.

GT500 base price - 70,300

Destination 1,095
Gas Guzzler 2600

TOTAL 73995

https://www.mustang6g.com/forums/thr...ptions.124689/

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

The sad thing is that Ford makes a product, limits the production so that it is difficult to obtain, the dealers then mark it up, not many people can actually buy the damn thing, and they go crazy about it. While they're on the sidelines cheering for a car that is near impossible to obtain, the Hellcats, Redeyes, ZL1s, and Z06s can all be had easily. It is stupid but that is the mentality among them. They'll be quick to talk about how much everyone wants a GT500. That stupidity is the reason why they get taken advantage of. And to top it all off, it's the GT guys who will never own one defending it. And even the GT350 guys. They defend it but refuse to pay even MSRP on the R. So what's that tell ya? With the R, these guys will negotiate for months on end or wait years to get one while others talk about how it's worth the markups. And then we gotta hear about how there will be plenty of GT500s at MSRP...yet the people saying that couldn't wait a little bit longer and decided to go with a discounted R instead. LOL!! And these guys don't even realize that by limiting the production, Ford is basically giving the dealerships the power to take advantage of people. And people who just want one soo bad that they'll pay extra give dealerships all the advantage too. The insanity is beyond comprehension.

I'm glad they defend it. because the more they do, the more it'll keep happening to them. And in a few years they'll be paying Z06 prices for a car that can't beat a ZL1 at everything. Oh wait, they're doing that now. LOL!!

That's the crazy part is it's not really that limited(R and CFTP are limited touch on that later). Someone posted the build counts, and yeah there were more ZL1s built than GT350s but it wasn't some insane difference, it wasn't like there was 10,000 ZL1s to 1K GT350s and even in the fifth gen it's not like there was a huge gap in production between GT500 and ZL1

A track focused car is something everyone says they want then when it comes out its hard to find homes for it. See 5th gen Z/28 They made 500 or so first year, and some fetched markup prices some at MSRP. Then made too many the second year and had to heavily discount them to move them. GM originally planned to limit the ZLE, and then decided not to. And what do you see now, they sit on lots and need discounts to move them. Point is building a track focused car and finding the right number to build is really tough. I think that is the reason Ford limits R and CFTP production is they are trying to find the sweet spot of cars made and not having to discount them.

But then the dealers get super greedy because its rare and people are stupid enough to pay it so we are back at square one and who the hell knows lol.

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Shelby is Ford's Corvette. Has been since before the first Camaro left the assembly line.

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

SVT came about because Shelby strayed away from the Ford camp for a while or Ford decided they didn't need the name. Not sure which was the trigger, but fact of the matter is, in the mid '80s - early '90s the two parted ways. Dodge Omni Shelby?

I can't speak definitively for who Ford targeted because I did not work in their competitor intel group (although I do know those guys...professional courtesy). But I can say how I would have informed the Ford Performance team if my office was in Dearborn instead of Warren. And I can speak for Gen 5 and Gen 6 Camaro as well as C7 and C8 Corvette and I know who was targeted at what level. My team provided the powertrain systems and performance intel on those targets.

My team very specifically told both Camaro and Corvette teams that M5 GT500 and M6 GT350 / GT500 were upping their game and looking to compete with top end Camaros by delivering Corvette level performance. And we also very specifically informed Corvette team that GT500 was aiming somewhere between Z06 and ZR1. This was based on the specs that we were aware of at the time. Some of those specs changed by the time GT500 came to market. They all changed for the better, probably due to Ford's CI people possibly getting better intel on C8 (Tremec).

Now Martin you know more about the industry then I could in a 1000 lifetimes so you are probably correct but just want to throw this out there.

I could see Shelby back in the day being the answer to the Corvette. I mean they had nothing racing wise until the BOSS cars. But now in 2019 isn't Shelby just a name and a marketing ploy? Because now weren't the Shelby cars of back in the day sent to Shelby in Las Vegas vs now they are in house produced on same assembly line? I mean before SVT got rebranded into Ford Performance the GT500 had SVT logos all over it still and they just kind of used the Shelby name with the retro design in 2007. I don't think anyone would say the earlier SVT Mustangs were targeted at Corvette(maybe the 03/04 terminators or maybe that was just making up for the mess that was 01) I could see Ford wanting to target Corvette performance bc in theory that would make it best Camaro as well. Price wise (until recently) it still lined up with Camaro - is that just by chance?

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by TheRealJA105

newmoonmartin

[ZRacerLE]

Originally Posted by Fraxum

Classy. There are beliefs and then there is reality.

Correct

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by newmoon

25k Price difference? I must be really bad in math but going by the Chevy website a base ZL1 A10 is listed at $66,190.00, and the Ford website the Base GT500 is listed as $73,995.00. Is this now some new math where $73,995.00 - $66,190.00 = $25,000.00?

GT500 runs 11.5 in MT: No man you have go to by real world drag strip and youtuber numbers of 10.6-10.8 vs zl1 published numbers, real racing not magazine racing, forget those published numbers (ignoring tha some of these same ford guys wanted the complete opposite for ss vs gt before the gt500 numbers came out)

GT500 sells for over over msrp: No man, that's b.s. and it doesn't count as a basis for price vs the zl1, go by published msrp numbers not real world sales numbers. Base vs base, options dont count.

Fanboy logic..... I won't say Ford logic, because there's plenty of cool Ford guys around living in the real world.

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by shaffe

Some people just need to have the top of the line no matter what. Only after living with it do they realize that it might not be the best fit for them.



As I have said before when comparing cars MSRP to MSRP is still the best way to go. There are just way to many variables when talking about price YOU paid vs price OTHERS paid. I get what you are saying but just for the sake of comparing cars I think its easier to talk MSRP to MSRP.



according to the price list on M6G.

GT500 base price - 70,300

Destination 1,095
Gas Guzzler 2600

TOTAL 73995

https://www.mustang6g.com/forums/thr...ptions.124689/



That's the crazy part is it's not really that limited(R and CFTP are limited touch on that later). Someone posted the build counts, and yeah there were more ZL1s built than GT350s but it wasn't some insane difference, it wasn't like there was 10,000 ZL1s to 1K GT350s and even in the fifth gen it's not like there was a huge gap in production between GT500 and ZL1

A track focused car is something everyone says they want then when it comes out its hard to find homes for it. See 5th gen Z/28 They made 500 or so first year, and some fetched markup prices some at MSRP. Then made too many the second year and had to heavily discount them to move them. GM originally planned to limit the ZLE, and then decided not to. And what do you see now, they sit on lots and need discounts to move them. Point is building a track focused car and finding the right number to build is really tough. I think that is the reason Ford limits R and CFTP production is they are trying to find the sweet spot of cars made and not having to discount them.

But then the dealers get super greedy because its rare and people are stupid enough to pay it so we are back at square one and who the hell knows lol.






Now Martin you know more about the industry then I could in a 1000 lifetimes so you are probably correct but just want to throw this out there.

I could see Shelby back in the day being the answer to the Corvette. I mean they had nothing racing wise until the BOSS cars. But now in 2019 isn't Shelby just a name and a marketing ploy? Because now weren't the Shelby cars of back in the day sent to Shelby in Las Vegas vs now they are in house produced on same assembly line? I mean before SVT got rebranded into Ford Performance the GT500 had SVT logos all over it still and they just kind of used the Shelby name with the retro design in 2007. I don't think anyone would say the earlier SVT Mustangs were targeted at Corvette(maybe the 03/04 terminators or maybe that was just making up for the mess that was 01) I could see Ford wanting to target Corvette performance bc in theory that would make it best Camaro as well. Price wise (until recently) it still lined up with Camaro - is that just by chance?

Not saying Shelby don't compete against top level camaros and try to compete against corvettes, but I agree and also see modern Shelbys and a marketing ploy using the name. Not saying it's a bad thing, they make great cars, but I'm pretty sure like svt they are all in-house ford projects.

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Whenever newmoon gets proven wrong, he'll just ignore then come back a little while later like it never happened lol

[Rodan]

Originally Posted by RobbyBeefcake87

Whenever newmoon gets proven wrong, he'll just ignore then come back a little while later like it never happened lol

QFT

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by shaffe

Some people just need to have the top of the line no matter what. Only after living with it do they realize that it might not be the best fit for them.



As I have said before when comparing cars MSRP to MSRP is still the best way to go. There are just way to many variables when talking about price YOU paid vs price OTHERS paid. I get what you are saying but just for the sake of comparing cars I think its easier to talk MSRP to MSRP.



according to the price list on M6G.

GT500 base price - 70,300

Destination 1,095
Gas Guzzler 2600

TOTAL 73995

https://www.mustang6g.com/forums/thr...ptions.124689/



That's the crazy part is it's not really that limited(R and CFTP are limited touch on that later). Someone posted the build counts, and yeah there were more ZL1s built than GT350s but it wasn't some insane difference, it wasn't like there was 10,000 ZL1s to 1K GT350s and even in the fifth gen it's not like there was a huge gap in production between GT500 and ZL1

A track focused car is something everyone says they want then when it comes out its hard to find homes for it. See 5th gen Z/28 They made 500 or so first year, and some fetched markup prices some at MSRP. Then made too many the second year and had to heavily discount them to move them. GM originally planned to limit the ZLE, and then decided not to. And what do you see now, they sit on lots and need discounts to move them. Point is building a track focused car and finding the right number to build is really tough. I think that is the reason Ford limits R and CFTP production is they are trying to find the sweet spot of cars made and not having to discount them.

But then the dealers get super greedy because its rare and people are stupid enough to pay it so we are back at square one and who the hell knows lol.






Now Martin you know more about the industry then I could in a 1000 lifetimes so you are probably correct but just want to throw this out there.

I could see Shelby back in the day being the answer to the Corvette. I mean they had nothing racing wise until the BOSS cars. But now in 2019 isn't Shelby just a name and a marketing ploy? Because now weren't the Shelby cars of back in the day sent to Shelby in Las Vegas vs now they are in house produced on same assembly line? I mean before SVT got rebranded into Ford Performance the GT500 had SVT logos all over it still and they just kind of used the Shelby name with the retro design in 2007. I don't think anyone would say the earlier SVT Mustangs were targeted at Corvette(maybe the 03/04 terminators or maybe that was just making up for the mess that was 01) I could see Ford wanting to target Corvette performance bc in theory that would make it best Camaro as well. Price wise (until recently) it still lined up with Camaro - is that just by chance?

Shaffe, you understand more than you let on. A lot of good stuff in that post. The shift from SVT to Ford Performance timed with the intro of the M6 Shelbys is (in my opinion) not a coincidence. Toss in the timing of the C5 to C6 upgrade and the horsepower wars we are seeing right in the midst of a universal demand for better emissions and fuel economy.

This is my opinion of what is going on. Based more on connecting dots than on any date - place - time provable evidence.


A lot of Tier 1 suppliers in the powertrain space have had to develop product that deliver improved performance and meet known (and some unknown) fuel economy and performance targets. Several have gotten really good at it. Borg Warner, Bosch, Continental, Denso, Eaton, Magna, Tremec, ZF just to name a few. This has given the OEMs (Ford, GM, FCA) the ability to free up development resources to focus on the base powertrain development and focus on integrating the technologies of the Tier 1s into the development cycle. OEMs develop the basic structure of the powerplants and also "twist the knobs" of the tools provided by the Tier 1s. I'm over-simplifying big time, but bear with me.

As a result the OEMs have vastly improved in their ability to calibrate chassis and powertrain to develop a portfolio ranging from people mover to track monster (CTS --> ZL1, Fiesta --> FiST, and EB --> GT500) with the same basic hardware sets plus integrated hardware and software from Tier 1s. No more dropping in a somewhat hotter engine and stiffer springs, slapping a few decals on and calling it a day like in the post-Shelby SVT days. Those SVT products never claimed to compete with Corvette and rightly so. As has been stated Mustangs and Camaros have always competed. My point is Shelbys and Corvettes have also always competed when there were Shelbys. The REALLY hot stuff had to be done offline (Shelby American), even with the SVT badging. But during that time, the really hot "Shelby" stuff was Shelby American's own portfolio of tuned cars. That lasted right up until the 2014 GT500 dropped in with 662 hp.

Bottom line, Ford's capability improved to the point that they no longer need Shelby American to "finish" their performance cars for them. Out with SVT, in with Ford Performance. The change coincided with the sea change in capability of just making Mustangs faster to doing world class chassis and powertrain tuning. This happened probably one product cycle behind GM deciding that Camaro had to transcend the historic pony car envelope to include world class handling and road manners.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by RobbyBeefcake87

Not saying Shelby don't compete against top level camaros and try to compete against corvettes, but I agree and also see modern Shelbys and a marketing ploy using the name. Not saying it's a bad thing, they make great cars, but I'm pretty sure like svt they are all in-house ford projects.

Totally and not saying Martin is wrong. Just I think Shelby name now is more of a marketing ploy since all the cars are built in house by Ford Performance

Originally Posted by RobbyBeefcake87

Whenever newmoon gets proven wrong, he'll just ignore then come back a little while later like it never happened lol

LOL

I mean on the MSRP to MSRP thing he is not wrong, but the poster he quoted was directly referring to the deal they got vs MSRP so thats where the difference of 25K was

[shaffe]

Thanks Martin!

Laid out that way it makes a ton of sense.

[ZRacerLE]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Shaffe, you understand more than you let on. A lot of good stuff in that post. The shift from SVT to Ford Performance timed with the intro of the M6 Shelbys is (in my opinion) not a coincidence. Toss in the timing of the C5 to C6 upgrade and the horsepower wars we are seeing right in the midst of a universal demand for better emissions and fuel economy.

This is my opinion of what is going on. Based more on connecting dots than on any date - place - time provable evidence.


A lot of Tier 1 suppliers in the powertrain space have had to develop product that deliver improved performance and meet known (and some unknown) fuel economy and performance targets. Several have gotten really good at it. Borg Warner, Bosch, Continental, Denso, Eaton, Magna, Tremec, ZF just to name a few. This has given the OEMs (Ford, GM, FCA) the ability to free up development resources to focus on the base powertrain development and focus on integrating the technologies of the Tier 1s into the development cycle. OEMs develop the basic structure of the powerplants and also "twist the knobs" of the tools provided by the Tier 1s. I'm over-simplifying big time, but bear with me.

As a result the OEMs have vastly improved in their ability to calibrate chassis and powertrain to develop a portfolio ranging from people mover to track monster (CTS --> ZL1, Fiesta --> FiST, and EB --> GT500) with the same basic hardware sets plus integrated hardware and software from Tier 1s. No more dropping in a somewhat hotter engine and stiffer springs, slapping a few decals on and calling it a day like in the post-Shelby SVT days. Those SVT products never claimed to compete with Corvette and rightly so. As has been stated Mustangs and Camaros have always competed. My point is Shelbys and Corvettes have also always competed when there were Shelbys. The REALLY hot stuff had to be done offline (Shelby American), even with the SVT badging. But during that time, the really hot "Shelby" stuff was Shelby American's own portfolio of tuned cars. That lasted right up until the 2014 GT500 dropped in with 662 hp.

Bottom line, Ford's capability improved to the point that they no longer need Shelby American to "finish" their performance cars for them. Out with SVT, in with Ford Performance. The change coincided with the sea change in capability of just making Mustangs faster to doing world class chassis and powertrain tuning. This happened probably one product cycle behind GM deciding that Camaro had to transcend the historic pony car envelope to include world class handling and road manners.

Where's the "I really like button" for posts?