Tune + Warranty concerns

[ffrcobra_65]

Temper, I don't pretent to be knowledgeable in computer stuff. I was just making an example and yet, you completely missed the point. Yes, I can understand you fix stuff but if you work for a company, you do it because you are getting paid to do what the company tells you to do. On the other hand, if you own the company and people are coming to you to fix 2nd or 3rd party mistakes and expect you to do it for free, I think you would be singing a different tune. I am willing to bet you don't get the point I just tried to make either.
Why the hatred for a car manufacturer's stance on possibly voiding your car warranty if/when you alter their product? Why did you buy a damn car to begin with??!!?? Put some wheels on your computer and ride it to work!

[Partick]

Someone needs to put a fork in this thread and put it out of its misery, the conversation has digressed from its original intent to a shouting match...lol

[rodimus prime]

Originally Posted by Number 3

I give up.................I've tried to teach you guys, but there is nobody selling tunes that gives more HP without affecting durability. There isn't anyone that can give you more FE without sacrificing the performance you already have.

GM spends thousands and thousands of hours in the lab, on the dyno and in the car providing your Camaro with the best overall performance that is reliable, fuel efficient, emissions compliant and DURABLE.

There isn't a tune out there that is better for your car. They just may make the tradeoffs that suit your prefference.

And I won't go into the Fraud aspects of putting the OEM parts back on........

So my car is supposed to run pig rich from the factory? You guys didnt want me to pick up a few hp and a mpg on purpose? A stock tune is no different...at all than any mail order aftermarket tune. Its a generic one size fits all tune. Some will lack in performance, some will lack in economy. But to say the factory tune is optimized is ridiculous otherwise my a/f ratio would of been dead on from the factory instead of leaning out to normal ranges with a CAI. If your tune was so optimized it should of not budged. That leads me to believe you guys tuned the motors without the Camaros intakes on them, maybe some sort of generic shop intake? Because it was off, no ifs ands or buts about it.


Furthermore if the cars went through thousands of hours of tuning you would think they would of caught that the l99 cpus were getting stuck in low octane mode. Maybe in those thousands of hours of tuning (b.s.) they never thought to run different octanes to see what happens? LOL about as good of testing as the guys who made the PDIM.


EDIT: Let me add though, I believe the transmission to be a different story. It can easily be broken through tuning and should not be messed with at all if you expect warranty work to ever be done on it.

[ffrcobra_65]

Originally Posted by Partick

Someone needs to put a fork in this thread and put it out of its misery, the conversation has digressed from its original intent to a shouting match...lol

I am guilty. Sorry guys.

[CynAgain]

Originally Posted by ffrcobra_65

I am guilty. Sorry guys.

well... that's an honest post right there. Ur A-OK in my book

[Partick]

Originally Posted by ffrcobra_65

I am guilty. Sorry guys.

Not any one person that made it get that way, for me it seems that there are just too many viewpoints to continue in a positive way and it just became a who said what and who does or doesn't know what. What I take from this discussion is its a crap shoot on voiding the warranty if you make certain changes. Helped me decide to wait until the warranty is up before I do anything beyond the CAI better mufflers so it was good in a way just ran out of value..

[Temper]

Lets take a different approach,

In computers, if you buy a laptop and then upgrade the ram is the warranty voided? No. They will obviously not cover the new ram unless bought from the same company. If it can be demonstrated you use incompatible ram then yes. You pay to fix.

On a house, if you buy a new one with a warranty, and paint the walls, is the warranty voided? No. They will obviously not cover that paint.

If you buy a iPod and use headphones that didn't come with it is the warranty voided? No. not unless you size it wrong and break the connector.

If you buy a radio and use a different brand battery - still have the warranty. I did notice that some phones claim to void the warranty if you use a non-oem battery. I have never heard of this enforced. I still think if the battery is at the same spec then this is bullshit as well. It is a ploy to sell overpriced batteries. Printers do the same with INK.

There are just so many examples of people personalizing the things that they buy. It is kinda what makes us all human. Like would the K&N Filter I bought void the warranty? It does change the filtering dynamics. That's different. It changes the way the engine will wear. K&N Claims it to be better, but that is speculative opinion. Did it void the warranty? You seem to think GM would be justified in saying that it does.

And again, you COMPLETELY missed the whole segment on factory defects, their rates, the profitability of choosing a higher rate of defects. This seems highly suspect. You also seem completely oblivious to the concept of tolerances and specifications. Also, you ignored the argument about a stock vehicle "abused" like the elevator run at 99.99% of capacity too long.

If fact, you only argument is that you messed with it you should take responsibility, and I agree to the point where you damaged the system. However, I was originally responding to this post:

Originally Posted by axis

Corporate Bulletin Number 08-06-04-033 is currently available in SI.

Identifying Aftermarket Engine Calibrations [...]

If a suspicious hard part failure is observed in the engine, transmission, transfer case or driveline, perform the calibration verification described to determine if a non-GM issued engine calibration is installed. Non-GM issued engine calibrations subject driveline components to stresses different than the calibrations which these components were validated to. Repairs to transmission, transfer case and/or other driveline components where a non-GM engine calibration has been verified are not covered under the terms of the New Vehicle Warranty.

Instructions for Confirming Calibration Verification Number (CVN):

1. Go to TIS2WEB
[...]
17. Compare the calibration ID and Calibration Verification Numbers (CVN) to the Calibration Verification Numbers (CVN) on the printout.

Although the part numbers will be the same for each, it's the CVN that will determine if the calibration is GM issued. If ALL of the CVN's are EXACTLY the same, the calibration is GM issued.

If the part numbers match and ANY CVN's DO NOT match the printout, it is likely that a non-GM certified calibration has been installed.

If the CVN information is displayed as "N/A", it will be necessary to contact the TCSC to obtain the CVN information.

If a non-GM calibration is found to be in the ECM (CVN's on the Tech 2 do not match TIS printout) - In order to document the case — a CLEAR digital picture should be taken of the Tech 2® screen showing the VIN and the CVN's that do not match the TIS2WEB printout. The picture, VIN and reason the vehicle is currently in for service should be emailed to JAY.DANKOVICH@GM.COM and STEVEN.R. BRIDSON@GM.COM for verification. Please copy your GM District Service Manager (DVM) on the e-mail. GM will verify if the CVN's are not GM issued and respond via e-mail within 72 hours.

Non-GM issued engine calibrations subject driveline components to stresses different than the calibrations which these components were validated to.

Yes, different goes without saying. BUT DIFFERENT DOES NOT MEAN THAT IT EXCEEDED FACTORY SPECIFICATIONS. Something else that would be DIFFERENT would be to advertise a car at 400hp and then deliver 355hp!

If fact, this whole tech bulletin seems like a way to screw the user. It also seems like it is up to the dealership, so if your buddy buddy your ok, if not then your screwed cause ANYTHING can be "suspect". Also, NO WHERE is there ANY mention of verifying that the ECM has not suffered some sort of corruption or failure. (And you can certainly be assured that the GM computer program in the ECM is PERFECT IN EVERY WAY AND IS COMPLETELY INFALLIBLE!)

I originally chimed is because of my EMBEDDED PROGRAMMING EXPERIENCE AND THE PERIL OF THIS KIND OF ATTITUDE.

But instead it seemed to get hostile because I have a non-conformity attitude. I have also been screwed more times than most.

Finally, FOR THE RECORD, I bought this car because it was supposed to be a awesome looking bad ass performing car. While it does look good, its performance leaves something to be desired. The computer in this car is damn annoying. The power is never consistent. It is also still lacking in power.

I take care of all my things, I still have a radio from my 14th year Christmas. (its 13 years old) It works perfectly and I still have the ORIGINAL remote control.

I intend to take EXCELENT care of this car, and would not KNOWINGLY do ANYTHING to DAMAGE IT. Like, if you guys are serious that octane booster is bad, then I won't use it. I didn't see any disclaimer on the octane booster, and it was supposed to help with pinging/ping sensors.

Also, before doing anything I do as much research as possible to make a well formed educated decision. I wouldn't even run the car in a MODERATELY RISKY CONFIGURATION. This has nothing to do with anything except it is MY CAR and I take CARE OF MY THINGS. I want this car to last for as long as possible. But I do expect it to perform, and I am not going to baby a 400hp sports car that cost me $40,000. If the car didn't have a warranty, I would be asking the same questions but looking for the answer of what would and would not break it. IE. How would tuning break the car, and what needs to be done so it won't. Should I just not tune it. But the general consensus seems to be that the tune is overly protected and designed for a lot of engines, all of which may not be the same. It, also, could EASILY be argued that a tune for your ACTUAL SPECIFIC ENGINE, would always be better and safer. I wish GM would just offer this service - i'd pay for it.

If your still going to be pig headed and ignore a professional computer programmer WARNING you about this service bulletin and the perils of this "checksum" CVN's verification then I pity you. COMPUTERS ARE MORE CLOSELY IMPERFECT THAN PERFECT. They also have user error.

So the hardware can fail and mess up, the programmer can make ALL SORTS OF MISTAKES (that are sometimes next to impossible to reproduce and detect), users can screw things up, and then you have tampering.

So any real reason why your all over GM's jock so to speak? You act like your married to this car.

[HaveBlue]

I'm not sure I want to touch this thread. It's pretty toxic. Temper you seem to want to argue just for the sake of it. I am going to point out a couple of things however.

In the extreme. Your car was certified by General Motors to meet the standards of the Federal Clean Air Act. Black and white, anything you do that alters the emissions output of the vehicle (like a non-certified tune) is a felony violation of federal law. The DOT/NHTSA would now consider your car an "off-road use only" vehicle. Again the black & white contract that this is a street car is no longer valid. GM has no responsibility for a "off-road use only" vehicle. It's not GM's rules you broke so much as it's the EPA's.

The bulletin sited is not really relevant to this car. It uses a new GM Global Architecture (Global A) for the new GM Global Diagnostic System (GDS). It's a PC based system that's real time to the internet. The dealership doesn't have to submit a "snapshot" ,it's being looked at, and recoded, real-time by GM.

But instead it seemed to get hostile because I have a non-conformity attitude. I have also been screwed more times than most.

These 2 things MAY just be related

And again, you COMPLETELY missed the whole segment on factory defects, their rates, the profitability of choosing a higher rate of defects. This seems highly suspect. You also seem completely oblivious to the concept of tolerances and specifications.

This is like Urban Myth. Care to site examples? Anyone supplying components to GM has to be an ISO9001 Certified company. If it doesn't meet specs, GM doesn't take it. Period.
BTW, Dealerships hate warranty work. It's a fixed rate. They make nothing, especially the tech.

[Temper]

Originally Posted by HaveBlue

I'm not sure I want to touch this thread. It's pretty toxic. Temper you seem to want to argue just for the sake of it. I am going to point out a couple of things however.

Main Entry: ar·gue
Pronunciation: \ˈär-(ˌ)gyü\
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): ar·gued; ar·gu·ing
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French arguer to reprove, argue & Latin arguere to demonstrate, prove; Anglo-French arguer, from Latin argutare to prate, frequentative of arguere; akin to Hittite arkuwai- to plead, respond
Date: 14th century
intransitive verb 1 : to give reasons for or against something : reason <argue for a new policy>
2 : to contend or disagree in words : dispute <argue about money>transitive verb 1 : to give evidence of : indicate <the facts argue his innocence>
2 : to consider the pros and cons of : discuss <argue an issue>
3 : to prove or try to prove by giving reasons : maintain <asking for a chance to argue his case>
4 : to persuade by giving reasons : induce <couldn't argue her out of going>

What is so wrong with "arguing"? I do prefer "Debate"

Main Entry: 1de·bate
Pronunciation: \di-ˈbāt, dē-\
Function: noun
Date: 13th century
: a contention by words or arguments: as a : the formal discussion of a motion before a deliberative body according to the rules of parliamentary procedure b : a regulated discussion of a proposition between two matched sides

but, alas, we have no rules here :P

Also, your god gave you a mouth to eat and talk. (or fingers for a keyboard in this case?) We made speech to learn from each other. How can we ever hope to discover truth without a debate? I argue for the sake of truth and learning. It is by far the most effective manner to do so as well. It also gives you perspectives you don't have and ideas you have never thought of. It is a all-around generally good idea. It is a shame the modern culture now somehow finds "arguing" a negative characteristic and tiresome or unpleasant.

Originally Posted by HaveBlue

In the extreme. Your car was certified by General Motors to meet the standards of the Federal Clean Air Act. Black and white, anything you do that alters the emissions output of the vehicle (like a non-certified tune) is a felony violation of federal law. The DOT/NHTSA would now consider your car an "off-road use only" vehicle. Again the black & white contract that this is a street car is no longer valid. GM has no responsibility for a "off-road use only" vehicle. It's not GM's rules you broke so much as it's the EPA's.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/ht...2----000-.html
That section of law really just governs the sale of the car. Seems to suggest that the factory settings must be re-installed before sale is attempted.

Originally Posted by HaveBlue

The bulletin sited is not really relevant to this car. It uses a new GM Global Architecture (Global A) for the new GM Global Diagnostic System (GDS). It's a PC based system that's real time to the internet. The dealership doesn't have to submit a "snapshot" ,it's being looked at, and recoded, real-time by GM.

Wow, that seems worst.

Originally Posted by HaveBlue

These 2 things MAY just be related

Not really, differing opinions never justify hostility. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. I think there is a legal argument for a lot of what I have said as well. Just claiming "tampering" does not remove liability. Take for example, you have a lawcare company that guarantees results, they fertilize, mow, and water your grass. You have a party on an off day, so you decided to mow yourself to make the yard look good for the party. Later performance doesn't meet the guaranteed levels. Your act of mowing does not necessarily remove the companies liability of performance. Now, if it states that you cannot mow, maybe, but still, you would have to demonstrate that mowing the yard out of cycle damages growth cycles. (ie. negatively impacts the growth enough to account for the reduced performance.) Also, if this doesn't cover the full amount of under-performance, then the yard care company could still be found partially liable.

It is also, not like what I am saying is really that unreasonable, to say a car can't be modified really sucks. I also notice that the lingo in warranties are getting more and more wordy, probably more profit motive.

Originally Posted by HaveBlue

This is like Urban Myth. Care to site examples? Anyone supplying components to GM has to be an ISO9001 Certified company. If it doesn't meet specs, GM doesn't take it. Period.
BTW, Dealerships hate warranty work. It's a fixed rate. They make nothing, especially the tech.

LOL. You have got to be joking. Just search "[Any Car Company] Recall"

http://www.articlesbase.com/automoti...ts-113821.html
http://www.reuters.com/article/press...09+PRN20090603
http://www.24-7-news.com/archives/1865
http://personalmoneystore.com/moneyb...k-engine-fire/
http://www.direct.ca/trinity/GM-Steering-Problem.htm
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/wires/...ws_318945.html
http://www.carcomplaints.com/Chevrol..._failure.shtml
http://wot.motortrend.com/6569942/re...ans/index.html


>>> http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/downloa...s/FLAT_RCL.zip
NHTSA Recall Database

If you import it into MS Access, and run the following query to tabulate totals:

SELECT FLAT_RCL.[Make], COUNT(*) AS Total
FROM FLAT_RCL
GROUP BY FLAT_RCL.[Make];

You get:

FLAT_RCL Query
Make Total
FORD 4891
CHEVROLET 3729
GMC 2513
DODGE 2443
INTERNATIONAL HARVESTER 2323
MACK 2192
FREIGHTLINER 1561
BLUE BIRD 1431
FLEETWOOD 1372
VOLVO 1318
THOMAS 1143
BMW 1106
HONDA 975
KENWORTH 935
INTERNATIONAL 879
PONTIAC 876
PREVOST 795
JEEP 729
PLYMOUTH 729
HARLEY DAVIDSON 711
VOLKSWAGEN 710
MERCURY 701
NISSAN 685
WINNEBAGO 684
CHRYSLER 677
TOYOTA 668
PETERBILT 667
SPARTAN 661
BUICK 656
MERCEDES BENZ 596

I would say GMC and Chevy having the #2 and #3 spot in recalls, some 6,242 total recalls for "defective parts", does not support your conclusion on defective parts being an urban myth. Again, this was the Office of Defects Investigation division of the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA). They mostly only investigate "Safety Concerns". Imagine how many pissed off people there are.

[BackinBlackSS/RS]

Good stuff!!!

[HaveBlue]

What is so wrong with "arguing"? I do prefer "Debate"

Fair enough. Just don't try to apply logic to Federal Regs.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/ht...2----000-.html
That section of law really just governs the sale of the car. Seems to suggest that the factory settings must be re-installed before sale is attempted.

A little out of date. Used to only apply to the OE and shops. Now they fine all the way to the end consumer.

How the Clean Air Act affects retailers of specialty automotive aftermarket products may not be
well understood. Simply put, retailers can legally sell such products if they meet the
requirements of either the EPA’s Memorandum 1A (which defines “tampering” under the Clean
Air Act) or have been assigned a CARB Executive Order (E.O.) number, based on emissions
compliance testing. (Note: emissions-related products sold in California must have an E.O.
number). In addition, the following information is provided to further explain the procedures
necessary to ensure the legal sale of specialty and performance automotive aftermarket parts.
The Clean Air Act includes a tampering prohibition that makes it illegal for any person to
knowingly remove or render inoperative any device or element of design that would take a
vehicle or emissions system out-of-compliance. Of the more than one hundred types of specialty
automotive aftermarket parts affected by the Clean Air Act, not all require compliance testing in
order to avoid the issue of tampering. Selling emissions-related products that are “functionally
identical” to the original equipment (OEM) parts they replace (“replacement parts”), when
installed on the proper vehicle and according to the manufacturer’s instruction materials, is not
tampering as defined by the Clean Air Act.

does not support your conclusion on defective parts being an urban myth

Wow, wow. Not what I meant. I probably should have been clearer. I was referring to your assertion that OE's lower quality standards for increased profits.
Defective parts? Will always be. A mechanical machine with thousands of interacting parts, made by humans, will never be perfect.

Originally Posted by HaveBlue
The bulletin sited is not really relevant to this car. It uses a new GM Global Architecture (Global A) for the new GM Global Diagnostic System (GDS). It's a PC based system that's real time to the internet. The dealership doesn't have to submit a "snapshot" ,it's being looked at, and recoded, real-time by GM.

Wow, that seems worst.

Yes it does. Big Brother. We can thank our brothers in the diesel world for much of this scrutiny. They've been pumping up turbo diesels to 800+hp & 800+ftlbs, and popping them, then wanting warranty replacement. Big dollars there.

It is also, not like what I am saying is really that unreasonable, to say a car can't be modified really sucks. I also notice that the lingo in warranties are getting more and more wordy, probably more profit motive.

It totally sucks and it's not unreasonable. But this is more legislative (emissions) driven than common sense. SEMA got EO certification programs in place by showing California that performance enhancements can be clean (or cleaner) and we only effect about 3% of the cars on the road. Unfortunately there are those in (now and previously) office that would rather mandate what we drive.

[Partick]

And here I thought this thread should have been put out of its misery long ago!? More of the same I'm afraid... kill it already Geesh: thumbdown: