Improved engine internals before TT ?

[KMPrenger]

Originally Posted by elsololobo02

Ryan2011rs,

Lets do some cave man math.

-Stock 2011 LS HP = 251 RWHP
-Full suite of bolt on mods= 20ish RWHP
-FI mods simply by boost = 200ish RWHP (assuming 10Psi x 20 RWHP per 1Lb of boost) and you will need meth to get to 10Psi by the way.

Grand total potentially= 471 RWHP (on a good day if your lucky and none of us with a V6 FI are making this consistently by the way).

Just by cave man math alone how do you expect to gain another 130 RWHP to meet your 600 HP goal? It is not possible. The FI boost level would need to be 15Psi+ to get where you want to be just to barely get to 600 HP assuming fueling/tune is not an issue.

Since you are rolling in the dough and have plenty of cars to drive just buy a SS and put $20K into it and make 800 HP+. I know it would be very nice to say you are the first V6 to make XXX amount of HP. But a reality check would be the Jay Leno car and we all know round about how much that guy makes ($180 Mil net worth and $30 Mil annual salary). His car is clocked at 420 HP and is a Twin Turbo built by GM.

http://www.jaylenosgarage.com/cars/c...ml#item=223986

I would love to see you get there and think it is a interesting idea but in all reality you are barking up the wrong tree and your resources are better utilized to invest in a SS/Zl1 to get the HP gains you seek.

GMs project Leno car was far from the best performing Forced induction V6. GM could make a monster V6 if they wanted to do something fun for the hell of it. That thing was 420 crank HP....not 420 at the wheels.

I just think using the Leno car as a benchmark is not a good comparison.

[SC2150]

KM is coorect. The Leno car was just a mockup running w/no proper tune to begin with for the first year plus until the GM Performance engineers got it sorted out. At the time it was pretty impressive, but Gretchen and others (we have pushed to just under 700 hp at 15-16# of boost using C16 race fuel in a boost referenced meth injection kit, but hurt a few pistons doing so (all stock bottom end!) and that is not safe or practical.

What were waiting for is someone that wants to see just what we can do and build it all forged with our standalone fuel system on top of the DI OEM one that uses 6 conventional injectors spraying into each intake port from the plenum and additonal controller system. That will give us all the fuel and tune we need, just not cheap by any means right now.

Remeber, just 8-10 years ago we had the ecotech 4cyl making 900-1000 hp with huge boost...

[elsololobo02]

Gents,

By no means I am trying to state that Mr. Lenos car should be the benchmark. I am simply stating that a person, like Mr. Leno, that has almost unlimited financial resources and was able to achieve/spend to get 420HP. Whether at the crank or at the weels 420HP is where the GM design team got him safely after a year in development and testing.

Sure GM could make a crazy V6 but as their design/engineering probably found out that is wasn't economical, even for them. Also, I do really appreciate various speed shops worldwide comming up with new and innovative procts for the V6's. But...

Trying to give some sound financial advice to a young man (OP) who sounds like he is just starting out regardless of his financial standing. Sure if he wants to spend $15K-$20K to get a V6 to 600HP, I think that is great and I would love to see it! But to be honest putting up that kind of money to get that kind of horespower (600+) out of a LLT/LFX is much better served to buy an SS/Zl1.

It all comes down to how much horsepower per $XXXXX.00 dollars is anyone willing to spend. How far down the Rabbit hole are you willing to go, you may find it is much deeper than you thought!

[GretchenGotGrowl]

I'm not sure we will ever get much detail from the Leno build, but from what I read and what I saw on Leno's garage it didn't seem like he was trying to go big. He wanted V8 power from a TTV6. 420 HP puts him between the L99 and LS3, so that met his goals.

I can say this, the internals of the LLT and LFX are very similar. They can take a lot more that 420 BHP without an issue...but the tune needs to be good. We've already seen several builds of 420 BHP (~335-360 WHP) without an issue. Now 600 BHP is a different story. If you start with a LS and add $15K to it then you are in the upper $30K range in total outlay. I'm not sure you will get 600 BHP out of a LS3 or L99 with a total outlay of less than $40K. If done right, a 600 BHP SS or V6 should be fine. Experience tells me we need better tuning options for the LLT, though.

[elsololobo02]

Originally Posted by GretchenGotGrowl

I'm not sure we will ever get much detail from the Leno build, but from what I read and what I saw on Leno's garage it didn't seem like he was trying to go big. He wanted V8 power from a TTV6. 420 HP puts him between the L99 and LS3, so that met his goals.

I can say this, the internals of the LLT and LFX are very similar. They can take a lot more that 420 BHP without an issue...but the tune needs to be good. We've already seen several builds of 420 BHP (~335-360 WHP) without an issue. Now 600 BHP is a different story. If you start with a LS and add $15K to it then you are in the upper $30K range in total outlay. I'm not sure you will get 600 BHP out of a LS3 or L99 with a total outlay of less than $40K. If done right, a 600 BHP SS or V6 should be fine. Experience tells me we need better tuning options for the LLT, though.

Gretchen,

Could not agree with you more and you having a TT build can definitley shed some light on all the metrics to accrue HP. I love math as it has zero feelings or emotions involved as it simply provides measuarble data. More caveman math...

- Standard price of a LS divided by stock dyno results ($23,500.00/251RWHP= $93.63 per 1 HP unit).

- 600 RWHP minus 251 RWHP = 349 RWHP difference.

- To get the additional 349 RWHP x $93.63= $32,676.87 is what it could cost, technically.

- So $23,500.00 + $32,676.87 = $56,176.87 total just to maybe get 600 RWHP.

-Base price of a 2013 SS= $32,635. 00
-Base price of a 2013 Zl1= $61,745.00

The numbers above obviously can't take in everthing to account and I used my local zip code to find prices but what it does show what it will round about cost to get to 600 fairly. Also the numbers assume you paid in full for your vehicle and doesnt take into account finance/interest charges whatsoever.

[GretchenGotGrowl]

Originally Posted by elsololobo02

Gretchen,

Could not agree with you more and you having a TT build can definitley shed some light on all the metrics to accrue HP. I love math as it has zero feelings, emotions involved as it simply provides measuarble data. More caveman math...

- Standard price of a LS divided by stock dyno results ($23,500.00/251RWHP= $93.63 per 1 HP unit).

- 251 HP minus 600 RWHP = 349 RWHP difference.

- To get the additional 349 RWHP x $93.63= $32,676.87 is what it could cost.

- So $23,500.00 + $32676.87 = $56,176.87 total just to maybe get 600 RWHP.

-Base price of a 2013 SS= $32,635. 00
-Base price of a 2013 Zl1= $61,745.00

The numbers above obviously can't take in everthing to account and I used my local zip code to find prices but what it does show what it will round about cost to get to 600 fairly. Also the numbers asuume you paid in full for your vehicle and doesnt take into account finance charges whatsoever.

But neither the SS or ZL1 have 600 RWHP. You can do the math another way.

1LS = 323 BHP for $23,500 or $73/BHP
1SS = 426 BHP (assume you used LS3) for $32,635 or $77/BHP
ZL1 = 560 BHP for $61,745 or $110/BHP

So, it is cheaper to get HP with the 1LS??? Not really because there is the base price of the car and then there is the cost of the power. Take my build for example. I think I'm at about $47K right now and 625 BHP. So it is costing me $75/BHP. That includes the suspension upgrades, wheels/tires and a lot of custom built stuff that will be cheaper for others now that we have built the first one. So, I'm adding power at about the same cost per BHP as the car came with. My next bump in power will come at a cost of a lot less than $75/BHP. Guestion is, what does it take to add 173 BHP to a SS or 40 BHP to a ZL1. Doesn't seem like it could be cheap enough to get the $/BHP ratio down to $75/BHP. Maybe you can and maybe you can't. I'm just saying it isn't as clear cut as some think.

[OfficiallyTook]

Originally Posted by GretchenGotGrowl

But neither the SS or ZL1 have 600 RWHP. You can do the math another way.

1LS = 323 BHP for $23,500 or $73/BHP
1SS = 426 BHP (assume you used LS3) for $32,635 or $77/BHP
ZL1 = 560 BHP for $61,745 or $110/BHP

So, it is cheaper to get HP with the 1LS??? Not really because there is the base price of the car and then there is the cost of the power. Take my build for example. I think I'm at about $47K right now and 625 BHP. So it is costing me $75/BHP. That includes the suspension upgrades, wheels/tires and a lot of custom built stuff that will be cheaper for others now that we have built the first one. So, I'm adding power at about the same cost per BHP as the car came with. My next bump in power will come at a cost of a lot less than $75/BHP. Guestion is, what does it take to add 173 BHP to a SS or 40 BHP to a ZL1. Doesn't seem like it could be cheap enough to get the $/BHP ratio down to $75/BHP. Maybe you can and maybe you can't. I'm just saying it isn't as clear cut as some think.

625....I can't wait for mine

Sent from my Amazon Kindle Fire using Xparent ICS Blue Tapatalk 2

[Can't_C_Me]

All these numbers lol.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S III

[elsololobo02]

Again, agree with you completely. Data input is what it is but I do feel the numbers define a fairly accurate baseline. Again the metrics don't take every aspect into account. The basline data here is the 2013 LS. Understand that the SS nor the Zl1 have stock 600 Bhp and they probably never will, at stock. The cost comparison was soley based on overall dealership prices/ total price by 1 HP unit. Which in general is a fair metric.

What the numbers really can't/don't account for is reliability/predicatability. Most of all math can reach the same conclusions through 3-4 different ways of calculating. You use Bhp (no parasitic loss) in your calcs and in all reality it is RWHP is the power actually making it to the wheels. The average percentage used is 15% on a manual and 20% on a auto for loss through the drivetrain. Loss between the crankshaft and the entire drivetrain to include gearing, condition of lubricants, mass of rotating parts, manual or automatic transmission, generator, water pump and other auxiliaries are to be included.

I do know for $32K I can own a SS that I can run hard and it will be reliable as for $23K a V6 will do the same. And I can up the HP well beyond what any V6 is capable of at a resonable price/HP price point. Heck there are some V8 SS guys making 1000+ and there is no V6 Camaro making numbers anywhere near that. I know that is the extreme but for good price point data go here... http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38022


Not trying to get into a pissing match as I too also own a FI V6, but at the end of the day the V8 will make more HP than a V6, in the end. X/Y/Z diagrams can show exactly where the equallibrium point is and how much it will cost. I think the numbers I have posted and you have posted pretty much show that a person will spend $23K on top of a base LS to get where you are at...532RWHP ish. But how reliable is that number going to be?? Most V6 people getting above 440RWHP ish are melting pistons, blowing gaskets among other things.

My hat is truly off to you! I hope you find solutions to you limitations and are able to reach the 600HP mark whether it be at the crank or the wheels! Simply just trying to help out a 20 year old kid (OP) that got some sort of inheritance to invest his money, if he decides to go down the modding path to get the most out of his money and be reliable.

[Can't_C_Me]

Originally Posted by elsololobo02

Not trying to get into a pissing match as I too also own a FI V6, but at the end of the day the V8 will make more HP than a V6, in the end. X/Y/Z diagrams can show exactly where the equallibrium point is and how much it will cost. I think the numbers I have posted and you have posted pretty much show that a person will spend $23K on top of a base LS to get where you are at...532RWHP ish. But how reliable is that number going to be?? Most V6 people getting above 440RWHP ish are melting pistons, blowing gaskets among other things.

My hat is truly off to you! I hope you find solutions to you limitations and are able to reach the 600HP mark whether it be at the crank or the wheels! Simply just trying to help out a 20 year old kid that got some sort of inheritance to invest his money, if he decides to go down the modding path to get the most out of his money and be reliable.

Really not that the pistons or the gaskets can't handle the power. It's the tuning/fuel issues causing these problems. For me to get the tune needed to get my power I sacrificed 2 pistons. If the tuning and fuel weren't a problem who knows what they could actually handle. I want to replace my pistons with OEM ones again and run my Meth kit as I did the last dyno run on 93. The meth kit worked great when I was first pushing 11-12psi's, kept my engine from leaning out and exploding lol. A progressive meth kit works wonders when programed properly when running out of fuel. I will also be running Torco to make race fuel while also reducing knock hopefully. The LLT could of been great if GM didn't screw us with this ECU.

[lscamaro]

Originally Posted by Can't_C_Me

Really not that the pistons or the gaskets can't handle the power. It's the tuning/fuel issues causing these problems. For me to get the tune needed to get my power I sacrificed 2 pistons. If the tuning and fuel weren't a problem who knows what they could actually handle. I want to replace my pistons with OEM ones again and run my Meth kit as I did the last dyno run on 93. The meth kit worked great when I was first pushing 11-12psi's, kept my engine from leaning out and exploding lol. A progressive meth kit works wonders when programed properly when running out of fuel. I will also be running Torco to make race fuel while also reducing knock hopefully. The LLT could of been great if GM didn't screw us with this ECU.

Truer words have never been spoken

[elsololobo02]

Ryan2011RS,

There you have it, 2 x pistons sacrificed because the ECU/ tune was pushed beyond its limits. I really do hope for all the FI V6ers the ECU can be cracked/tuned to full potential. Just do your research and use common sense. Plan on spending at least $23-$30K to get to the 500HP ranks with internals, suspension, drivetrain, tune, clutch, meth, gauges, labor etc.

Simply just getting info out there so people don't make the same costly mistakes. Maybe somone out there knows the people that designed/wrote the code on the ECU from GM that can provide some sort of info/feedback.

[MDV6er]

Don't forget the INSANE amount of money we save on insurance and gas, guys.


At least that's what I keep telling myself

[Sikoriko]

if money was not a option just move the injectors on the IM intead of the combustion chamber? Was this ever thought of or ever tested?