Torque Management - Trying to find a happy medium

[itguy]

I'll try to keep this short but I've had my car dyno tuned by a couple shops and have received some help from others, which is greatly appreciated, BUT I'm still fighting with my tune. Basic bolt-on car with cam, 3200 stall.

What started all this was my car flashes to 7000+ when downshifting and at some upshift WOT pulls with TM disabled...I need to calm it down and I guess my driving skills aren't enough. I've posted on the HPTuner forum and Chris stated I either have to enable torque management or disable neutral down skip. The main issue is WOT downshift and the car goes from 6 - N - 2. The flash while going to N isn't good and that's what I'm trying to work out.

I've been working on the shifting and TM settings all week and I've made a lot of progress. My shift times are really close to where I want them but the timing being pulled is causing issues with the shifts and also coast down.

When coasting down, no throttle, it pulls whatever timing is listed in the Minimum Final Spark TqMgt table. I believe this is the master table used for any TM timing to be pulled. If I enter 0 the coast down is normal...I even noticed on my log coming home today this value is being pulled at each shift too...shift from 1-2, -5 pulled. I'm not sure why but it is what it is.

I love the way the car is launches with TM enable..much more tame. I have modified the Shift Torque Factor Adder Modifier to utilize some TM.

I have also played with the Spark - Idle Adaptive Overspeed/Underspeed values to try and compensate for the timing being pulled at coast down. This hasn't helped..I did figure out how to make the idle have more lope by using these tables..haha

Also TM causing KR readings...No TM, my KR readings are perfect..the second TM is introduced KR is there. Is this normal?

Here are my thoughts on how I could possibly resolve:

1 – Leave TM and Minimum Final Spark as it is and increase timing in the area's being effected. I guess I would have to change all timing tables. I'm still new to all this and I'm not 100% comfortable with this route..may make the most sense but I need to know I won't be causing any issues. A SAFE tune is more important than performance.

2- Increase (again) Idle Adaptive Over/Underspeed values to see if it will compensate.

3 – Reduce variable in Minimum Final Spark. I already reduced by 75% so I’m not sure if I want to continue adjusting this table…currently at -5.

4- Increase TM in the Shift Torque Factor Adder Modifier and set the Minimum Final Spark to zero. Since it will NEVER (is that really the case with this table) pull any timing, just drop to 0, I’m not sure if it will keep me away from 7000+ during downshift….maybe it will, no timing = no power?

5 – Combination of the above or ????

Any help would be appreciated!! I would love to get this figured out

Tune and log

[Rhino79]

Adaptive over/underspeed are for timing corrections at idle, to maintain a desired rpm, not so much for decel. There is a table for coastdown spark for that.

The minimum final timing table is the timing value minimums that can be commanded, it will override any tm or protection events with timing.....i.e. if you have 15* it will never, ever go below 15*.

I prefer no tq mgt, and I achieve a better feeling calibration with no tm vs with it. You cant get crazy with downshift times, it will be violent and flare as mentioned.

Tq mgt should not factor in kr at all, it should dip the timing on the log, but not show as kr.

[Rhino79]

Also, your timing after start up at idle and on decel are as low as they are because your base minimum airflow is too high. When Base air is accurate, the actual and commanded timing at idle and decel will be very close. If the base air is too high, it will resort to pulling chunks of timing to try to reach the desired idle speed commanded.

Looking at your log your wot fueling looks way rich at 940 mv, and the kr on tip in looks to be from the burst knock retard being 0'd out.

[itguy]

Thanks for the information. Of course, this is over my head and I'm not sure how to correct. It makes me sick to know I've had it tuned TWICE and hear things like this...

[Tampa Tuning]

That tune is for Bolt Ons and a stall?

[itguy]

My build:

Comp Cam 54-469-11 231/247 .617 .624 113+4
L99 to LS3 conversion - DOD/VVT delete
3 bolt cam, LS2 damper, All ARP bolts
Trunion upgrade, PRC .650 double springs, LS7 lifters, 7.350 pushrods, LS3 oil pump, Katech C5R, milled heads .037 (11:25:1)
Transmission cooler
Yank 3200
SLP 25% UD pulley
Kooks 1 7/8 headers hiflow cats
Borla Touring catback
CAI Inc intake
Elite catch can
160 thermostat
MSD plug wires
NGK TR6 copper plugs

[itguy]

Someone also mentioned they noticed the throttle closing during power downshift in the logs.

[Rhino79]

Hows the car doing itguy?

[itguy]

Hi Rhino79 – Thanks for stopping in. I’ve been meaning to respond but I’ve had to bring work home this week and haven’t had a lot of time to post. Thanks again for all your help with taking the time to explain settings and offering your time and expertise to help with my tune. I also need to thank Waker as he got me started during this process and everyone else that offered to assist..you know who you are! Thanks again!!

I’m going to explain the changes to the best of my ability..I’m not an expert and I’m not trying to start a debate on whether or not TM should even be activated…some people use it and some don’t. I found that I loved the way my car launched with it enabled so I was on a mission to make it work for everything…

My car was tuned with HP Tuners so the tables I mention are available with this software.

My main issue was preventing flashes to 7000 and beyond during WOT downshifts and when I got happy with the pedal and lost traction when I launched. I would always bang the limiter and it wasn’t any fun. When enabling TM, the car acted like it was gasping for air during each shift…very embarrassing…felt like my old TH350 without a shift kit.

The table that caused me all sorts of issues was the Spark Minimum TqMgt. I think the factory setting was -20 so each time I would WOT the timing would drop to -20 and the car felt like $&#*. Also, when coasting down the idle would dip and act like it wanted to stall. It is now at 10 which doesn’t cause any issues with the coast down and yes you can tell the timing drops to 10 for just a second but it’s not terrible.

I disabled CT Downshift. I found with it enabled that the throttle would close for a second as a means of TM. Leaving it disabled isn’t causing any other issues that I’m aware of.

Shift time tables now hover around .20.

Shift pressure was increased…IMO nothing crazy, 15% normal driving to a value of 280 at WOT.

Shift inertia – This table made a huge improvement for me. I’m actually not sure if I went the “right way” with the adder as I’ve made so many changes that I know the tranny needs to adapt so I can get a real idea of what I’ve done. I have increased the values during lower RPM’s by 50%. My luck lower numbers equal firmer shift..haha It’s okay so I have my fingers crossed I made the right choice.

One of the most important tables, to me, is the Adder Modifier table. This is where you set the amount of TM by torque and RPM. I’m still playing with this, but right now I have it ramped from 50% TM up to 3750 and then it ramps to 0% at WOT, 5250+, and 221 ft. lb+.

I only lock my converter in 6th and 65+. My commute is 5 miles, it's my DD and I average 11 MPG.

My car now shifts crisp and launches like a bat out of hell..haha Of course, this is all subjective but now I feel like I’m finally able to enjoy my build because it’s performing as I imagined it would. It will still break lose a little at WOT downshifts but not like it used too with my current settings…it just goes!

I have learned A LOT during this process and after being extremely frustrated from the beginning I am now thankful that I better understand my car and how it works. I will continue to log and read about tuning because it interests me.

[mlee]

Very nice... you're really digging in and learning this stuff...

It's great to have folks pop in here and help out too.