[apexit53]

Originally Posted by Eric SS

Clearly I was wrong above which is shocking (shocking it's not allowed, NOT shocking that I was wrong lol).

That's really odd to me that the 6 pot setup isn't FS legal.

Yeah I'm surprised also. Oh well.

[Egon]

Originally Posted by apexit53

so if you ordered your ss (non 1LE)with the 6 pistons they were not installed on the factory line?

I also don't know what cooler pack they are talking about here.

Correct, this is called an LPO (Limited Production Option) by GM and they are sent with the car and installed at the dealership. The brake ducting is also shipped in the trunk of the car so not technically installed at the factory. Not that anyone's brakes are likely to get that hot during autocross unless they leave the ebrake on.

Originally Posted by Super Speeder

Thanks for everyone's input. I'm glad you all cleared it up and explained the rules in detail. I'm sure there others that will learn from this thread as well.

So technically the track backing plates aren't legal in FS either since they aren't installed at the factory?

I don't think the stock brakes are a disadvantage for me at this point in FS. I have changed the fluid and pads, so performance is pretty good. I was just thinking if I ran across a good deal on 6-pistons I might jump on it since I plan to do some track days in the future.

At least for autocross there will be next to no difference between the performance of a 4 piston brake car vs a 6 piston brake car. (assuming all else equal) The brakes are never likely to get hot enough to induce fade, and you would get equal if not superior stopping power by switching to a more aggressive track/race pad on the 4 piston brakes over 6 piston with stock pads. If anything the additional unsprung weight of the 6 pistons would be a disadvantage for autocross. Track days is another matter altogether and the 6 pistons are a definite upgrade there if just for additional fade resistance.

Originally Posted by Eric SS

Clearly I was wrong above which is shocking (shocking it's not allowed, NOT shocking that I was wrong lol).

That's really odd to me that the 6 pot setup isn't FS legal.

I think the reasoning behind them not being legal is that it would be really easy for Mfg's to game the system with additional parts offered after the fact. In addition, if LPO upgrades offer a significant performance advantage that it would create a situation where the car would need to be moved to a different class to maintain the balance of power it will create a lot of additional work for the Advisory Committees (AC) to class not just cars and options packages but also LPO options as well. At present we have the 6th Gen Camaro in FOUR different Street classes, F-Street for the 1SS, 2SS and V6 models, D-Street for the Turbo4, A-Street for the V8 1LE, and B-Street for the V6 1LE, and that's not taking into account the ZL1 1LE which will probably end up in Super Street. Now give buyers the possibility of mixing and matching parts from these various cars amongst each other and you have a really complicated and potentially unfair situation. (unfair to the owners and their potential competitors) It would be trivially easy for GM to offer additional parts from these various models as dealer installed options, after all they already offer LPO's for different wheels, lowering kits, brake kits and I believe in the past they even offered some of the 1LE bits on the 5th Gen as dealer installed options. How do you now class a car that is already in 4 (potentially 5) different street classes if they have one or more of these options that improve its performance? Now multiply that by 30 different car manufacturers and you begin to see the potential amount of work involved. All of this would have to be tested by the AC's for the different classes and they would potentially have to make decisions on each item. Since there are already provisions for modifications like this in place it seems like a lot of extra work for some people that are not getting paid anything to do it. (AC members are all volunteers) According to existing rules there is nothing stopping anyone from upgrading your brakes, but the car would then be classed in either Street Touring Ponycar, (STP) or Classic American Muscle (CAM) so its not a situation where these cars would not be allowed to compete. And if the rules committees want to take a hard line that will likely be their justification, in other words if it ain't broke don't fix it. All of that being said I still think they will make changes to the rules to allow at least a limited number of these types of options for competition, but they may come with a class bump and the end trade off may not be worth it if they move your 1SS to A-Street because of a brake kit.

[apexit53]

Makes sense, just glad i didnt order my car with them! hah. I wish the GM website would be more clear on what options are factory or dealer installed.

Im looking to change the knee pads to the suede ones that look to be an option on just a 1ss non 1le... but now I dont know if the put them in there or at the dealer! lol It might be under comfort and convenience though.. cause those plastic knee pads are awful after a day of autoX

[FNxR3DNECK]

Originally Posted by Egon

At present we have the 6th Gen Camaro in FOUR different Street classes, F-Street for the 1SS, 2SS and V6 models, D-Street for the Turbo4, A-Street for the V8 1LE, and B-Street for the V6 1LE, and that's not taking into account the ZL1 1LE which will probably end up in Super Street.

Correct me if I'm wrong John but I thought I read in the rules for Street classes that there has to be at least 1000 units of a car made each year for it to be legal in any street classes. So if that's true the ZL1 1LE which is supposedly limited to about 700-750 units won't be going into any Street classes. And where the hell are they going to put the regular ZL1?!? I have seen multiple people say it's in AS or that they are at least running it in AS locally, which makes no sense!!! The ZL1 should be in SS with the 350R and Grand Sport, it really makes no sense to class the SS 1LE and ZL1 together.

[apexit53]

Originally Posted by FNxR3DNECK

Correct me if I'm wrong John but I thought I read in the rules for Street classes that there has to be at least 1000 units of a car made each year for it to be legal in any street classes. So if that's true the ZL1 1LE which is supposedly limited to about 700-750 units won't be going into any Street classes. And where the hell are they going to put the regular ZL1?!? I have seen multiple people say it's in AS or that they are at least running it in AS locally, which makes no sense!!! The ZL1 should be in SS with the 350R and Grand Sport, it really makes no sense to class the SS 1LE and ZL1 together.

at least they have made an effort to make them competitive. Still trying to get the 1ss 1le moved to BS with the mustang gt350. Mark is doing well in the turbo in DS and the camaros are putting up good fights vs the m3 in FS.

[Egon]

Originally Posted by FNxR3DNECK

Correct me if I'm wrong John but I thought I read in the rules for Street classes that there has to be at least 1000 units of a car made each year for it to be legal in any street classes. So if that's true the ZL1 1LE which is supposedly limited to about 700-750 units won't be going into any Street classes. And where the hell are they going to put the regular ZL1?!? I have seen multiple people say it's in AS or that they are at least running it in AS locally, which makes no sense!!! The ZL1 should be in SS with the 350R and Grand Sport, it really makes no sense to class the SS 1LE and ZL1 together.

Yes, but there are over 1000 ZL1 (non 1LE) being made per year and the ZL1 1LE is just a package for that model, so it meets the criteria. It would be like saying well there weren't 1000 BLUE ZL1s produced this year so blue ones can't compete. Another example, there were a total of 4016 Boss 302's built in 2012, of which 767 were the Laguna Seca package, and the non LS is in F-Street and the LS is in A-Street even though there were less than 1000 built.

As for where the regular 6th Gen ZL1 will wind up, I think it has a fair chance of going to A-Street, but it could end up in Super Street where the Z06 is. Keep in mind that for Autocross power isn't everything, it's probably not even in the top 3 depending on the type of course and track surface. (tire, weight, and suspension are all more important in most situations) In some regions with small venues it will never be able to exploit that power advantage, and it has a fairly significant weight disadvantage over the SS 1LE. I have a feeling that the SS 1LE and the ZL1 (and possibly the ZL1 1LE) will be relatively evenly matched in Autocross situations unless the course is specifically designed to take advantage of the extra power it has. We jokingly call those Corvette courses, and the opposite is the Miata courses for those favoring light nimble momentum cars. The reality of it is that most courses will have a little bit of both and with equal drivers you are likely to see both cars change lead several times during a run. If I had a 6th Gen SS 1LE that I was running in A-Street I wouldn't worry one single second over where the ZL1 (1LE) ended up, I would be worrying about what I was going to do about the C6 Z06 first.

[Egon]

Originally Posted by apexit53

at least they have made an effort to make them competitive. Still trying to get the 1ss 1le moved to BS with the mustang gt350. Mark is doing well in the turbo in DS and the camaros are putting up good fights vs the m3 in FS.

The Mustang GT350 is in A-Street, the same place where the 6th Gen SS 1LE is. The GT350R is in Super Street. Don't hold your breath about moving the SS 1LE to B-Street, I don't really see it happening. If they did every single diver in B-Street will start complaining about their car being at a disadvantage against the SS 1LE because you have more power and they will want their cars moved to a class where they are more competitive and then cars in that class will complain about that move and so on and so on. Not likely to happen.

There are unfortunately always going to be some cars that are not going to be competitive in some classes at the nationals level. The reality is that we have 9 different street classes for 100's of different cars, and without making 37 different street classes with 1 car in each some cars are just not going to be top dog all of the time. I don't know if the SS 1LE is in that situation since we haven't seen any nationals calibur drivers decide to campaign one. Those of you with an SS 1LE need to start talking to some of the nationals level drivers in your region and see if they would like to co-drive with you at Lincoln this year. Then we will know, and you may surprise some people that way.

Also, and I hope that Mark Scroggs takes this in the spirit I am saying this but that man is a Mutant, an Alien that is probably more closely related to the Stig than to regular Humans. 2014 Rookie of the year, G-Street Nationals Champion for 2014 and 2015, and G-Street Pro Solo Champion for 2015, Third place in F-Street Solo Nationals 2016 in an EB Mustang vs everyone else with a V8. (and I am just happy when I don't hit the timing lights) You don't want to use him as a benchmark for classing cars because then everything will wind up in A-Street. I am sure Mark has his sights set on another Nationals jacket this year in D-Street, but any SS 1LE owners in the San Francisco region might want to talk to him about what he has plans for next year.

[apexit53]

Originally Posted by Egon

The Mustang GT350 is in A-Street, the same place where the 6th Gen SS 1LE is. The GT350R is in Super Street. Don't hold your breath about moving the SS 1LE to B-Street, I don't really see it happening. If they did every single diver in B-Street will start complaining about their car being at a disadvantage against the SS 1LE because you have more power and they will want their cars moved to a class where they are more competitive and then cars in that class will complain about that move and so on and so on. Not likely to happen.

There are unfortunately always going to be some cars that are not going to be competitive in some classes at the nationals level. The reality is that we have 9 different street classes for 100's of different cars, and without making 37 different street classes with 1 car in each some cars are just not going to be top dog all of the time. I don't know if the SS 1LE is in that situation since we haven't seen any nationals calibur drivers decide to campaign one. Those of you with an SS 1LE need to start talking to some of the nationals level drivers in your region and see if they would like to co-drive with you at Lincoln this year. Then we will know, and you may surprise some people that way.

Also, and I hope that Mark Scroggs takes this in the spirit I am saying this but that man is a Mutant, an Alien that is probably more closely related to the Stig than to regular Humans. 2014 Rookie of the year, G-Street Nationals Champion for 2014 and 2015, and G-Street Pro Solo Champion for 2015, Third place in F-Street Solo Nationals 2016 in an EB Mustang vs everyone else with a V8. (and I am just happy when I don't hit the timing lights) You don't want to use him as a benchmark for classing cars because then everything will wind up in A-Street. I am sure Mark has his sights set on another Nationals jacket this year in D-Street, but any SS 1LE owners in the San Francisco region might want to talk to him about what he has plans for next year.

people keep telling me to not hold my breath on the move but talking we some people on the inside its close and up for debate. if not this year it may happen in a few. Just saying its not as far fetched as people think.

[FNxR3DNECK]

Originally Posted by apexit53

people keep telling me to not hold my breath on the move but talking we some people on the inside its close and up for debate. if not this year it may happen in a few. Just saying its not as far fetched as people think.

On the subject of a possible move to B-Street, I lost all hope of that on Sunday. Larry Casey is a National level driver that always dominates our local events in A-Street with his C6 Z06 (usually 1-2 seconds ahead of everyone else) and I let him take my 1LE for a spin on Sunday, and it gave me a whole new perspective on where the car should be classes, which is right where it is in A-Street.

Larry's fast lap in his Z06 was a 54.9, mine was 58 flat in the 1LE (that was on my 3rd run), well he jumped in my car and ran a 56.4 on his first go and then matched his 54.9 from the Vette on the second run. And all that was with 3 people in the car and his first time ever driving a 1LE.

So yea I'd say the 1LE isn't going anywhere.

[apexit53]

Originally Posted by FNxR3DNECK

On the subject of a possible move to B-Street, I lost all hope of that on Sunday. Larry Casey is a National level driver that always dominates our local events in A-Street with his C6 Z06 (usually 1-2 seconds ahead of everyone else) and I let him take my 1LE for a spin on Sunday, and it gave me a whole new perspective on where the car should be classes, which is right where it is in A-Street.

Larry's fast lap in his Z06 was a 54.9, mine was 58 flat in the 1LE (that was on my 3rd run), well he jumped in my car and ran a 56.4 on his first go and then matched his 54.9 from the Vette on the second run. And all that was with 3 people in the car and his first time ever driving a 1LE.

So yea I'd say the 1LE isn't going anywhere.

Amazing he was able to do that since the 1le is so much heavier.

i wish there were results for this just for proof to send the scca.

[FNxR3DNECK]

Originally Posted by apexit53

Amazing he was able to do that since the 1le is so much heavier.

i wish there were results for this just for proof to send the scca.

Well I have the PDR footage haha but do you want the SCCA to see how good the 1LE really is? haha

[Egon]

Originally Posted by apexit53

people keep telling me to not hold my breath on the move but talking we some people on the inside its close and up for debate. if not this year it may happen in a few. Just saying its not as far fetched as people think.

There is always talk about moving cars from one class to another, but it doesn't happen very often. This season there was a huge shakeup where a lot of cars in FS and a few other classes were shuffled around, most landed in D-Street and I think they are waiting to see how that turns out before introducing any other changes into several already healthy classes. The Advisory Committees aren't there to be advocates for specific vehicles, but for classes as a whole, and I think they currently like where most of the street classes are right now.

The current dominant/popular/relevant competitors at Nationals level competition in B-Street are:

C5 Corvette: 3200-3300 lbs, 350 hp on 8.5f 9.5r in wheels, 0-60 4.4 seconds
Honda S2000: 2800 lbs, 237hp/160ft lbs, 6.5f 8.5r in wheels, 0-60 5.4 seconds
Pontiac Solstice/Saturn Sky (non turbo): 3000 lbs, 177hp/173ft lbs, 8 in wheels, 0-60 7.2 seconds
Volkswagen Golf R: 3000 lbs, 296 hp/280ft lbs, 8 in wheels, 0-60 4.5 seconds
Camaro V6 1LE: 3400 lbs, 335hp/284ft lbs, 8.5f 9.5r in wheels, 0-60 5.2 seconds

Camaro SS 1LE 3650 lbs, 455hp/455ft lb, 10f 11r in wheels, 0-60 4.2 seconds

The 6th Gen SS 1LE is better in every category except for weight, but with that extra weight comes Magna Ride, and a magical E-Diff which none of the competitors in that class have. Its front wheels, are a half inch bigger than even the largest competitors rear wheels are. This means the SS 1LE will be able to run a 305 square setup while the Corvette could run 275 square, (maybe 285s but that's pushing it with a severely pinched front tire) but the most common size would probably be 255s. It's like dropping a UFC Light Heavyweight into the Welterweight division. Could this happen? Sure, but is it likely? Not really.

Anecdotal evidence, poster mjk3888 here is running in my region as a Rookie, his first year doing this and he is out PAXing many veteran drivers as well as being competitive in A-Street regionally. Poster FNxR3DNECK had Laurence Casey an AS Nationals level driver (2016 4th place in AS with a 2007 Corvette Z06) drive his SS 1LE this weekend and was able to match his best time in his Z06 Vette with 3 people in the car! (I see you already related this information!)

I don't want this to sound mean, but I think a lot of the talk about moving the SS 1LE into B-Street is from drivers without a lot of SCCA/Autocross experience who just received their cars and are disappointed that they are not finishing as high as they expected to when they ordered the car. If anyone REALLY wants to know what the SS 1LE can do at the Nationals level (and by results where it should be classed) they need to get a Nationals level driver to co-drive with them at Lincoln this year. When someone does this, I think everyone will see that the SS 1LE is right where it belongs in A-Street.

Edit to add: apexit53 you already have a car that is objectively the best in its class right now with your 2017 SS in F-Street. If you are looking to upgrade to a 1LE in the hopes that it will be competitive, just stick with what you have and have fun.

[apexit53]

oh trust me i know i have a competitive car im not worried about that. lost index to another FS M3 this weekend buy .014... and that was jeff cashmore. Perfect car. I just like the 1LE for what it is. Would i run it in AS? heck yeah.

I would just like to see them classed more properly but If what he said is true and he really is a top national driver then yes it should stay in AS.