Shelby GT500 Hurst Challenger Camaro ?????

[HOTCIVIC]

Originally Posted by kevin2323

I wish dodge would let us do more with those cubes.


wow are you sure with just a cam swap and headers you will see 500 to the wheels, i would think 500 to the crank but if it is true that would be sick. I guess you guys are basing this off the corvette swaps and such?

Yes that's based on multiple reports I've seen of modded LS3s.

[kevin2323]

Originally Posted by HOTCIVIC

Yes that's based on multiple reports I've seen of modded LS3s.

nice :flag2:

[HOTCIVIC]

Originally Posted by MajorTom

We may have more cubes but they have more valves. Those count when it comes to air flow (why they respond so well to supercharging).

Stock for stock the GT500 will be faster in the straights. I've heard numbers closer to 450 for stock RWHP. Not bad. I've always said it doesn't make sense to compare a stock car to a modded one no matter the price difference.

Yep stock for stock the GT500 is quicker, although it seems most real world times show high 12s low 13s from what I've seen. That's the problem with stock supercharged cars with stock tunes - they suffer from heat soak and put out some miserable times in the summer heat.

Originally Posted by MajorTom

It's not what you can make the car do it's what the car will do from manufacturer that counts.

That's pretty subjective. If I can make the Camaro run 11s and keep it looking stock, people are going to come over and ask me what's done and they will be impressed. At the same time if they see a GT500 running high 12s and it's stock, I think people will be more impressed with what I've got. It's all opinion though - if you really are more impressed with what a car does bone stock then I can't fault you for that - it's your opinion.

Originally Posted by MajorTom

Your personal Camaro may end up being faster than a GT500 but you can't say "All camaro's are faster than GT500s".

Technically you can't say all GT500s will be faster than all Camaros either, even if they are both stock. That's because it depends on who's behind the wheel, and you will never have two equal drivers going down the track at the same time.

Originally Posted by MajorTom

And you couldn't take both cars off the showroom floor and race them and get a favorable outcome for the Camaro (most likely). Once their in consumer's hands all the stock for stock talk goes out the window because you don't know what you'll come up against at a light or on the track.

True. Good points.

Originally Posted by MajorTom

There is something to be said for modability but I think with the GT500s supercharger and how it'll respond to mods and stuff it has the advantage. Supercharged cars are easier to mod because they respond so well to better air flow better than a NA car. Not an argument. Just a fact. I'm not saying the GT500 is a better car for this, just that it is indeed the case. Not that it matters that much because the real test is how each car compares stock for stock.

True. The moddability of the GT500 is my favorite thing about it. With a Kenne Bell swap people are seeing 700 rwhp. That's crazy. However, my biggest problems with the GT500 are:

1) It's a Ford
2) It's ugly
3) The interior looks like it should be in a $15k car
4) It's a $45k Mustang
5) It's over 4000 pounds

So for someone who doesn't want an ugly, overpriced, cheap looking, heavy pig Mustang that really doesn't perform well from the factory, I'm going to look for something else. If Chev doesn't offer a 500 HP Camaro from the factory, I'll just have to make my own because:

1) I prefer Chevy over Ford
2) The Camaro is beautiful
3) The interior is far nicer than the Mustang
4) It will be far cheaper than the GT500
5) And it's lighter than the Challenger and GT500

Just my opinion. Other people prefer the Challenger and others will prefer the GT500. Nothin wrong with that.

[HOTCIVIC]

Originally Posted by kevin2323

nice :flag2:

I'm interested in this new Supercharged 6.1 SRT8 Challenger that's supposedly coming out. A Hemi with a S/C would be a bad boy!

[kevin2323]

Originally Posted by HOTCIVIC

I'm interested in this new Supercharged 6.1 SRT8 Challenger that's supposedly coming out. A Hemi with a S/C would be a bad boy!

yea im going to eventually stoke mine, I rather stroke then sc. But hopefully chrysler does it and comes out with the 6.4 392 engine in 2010.

[radz28]

Originally Posted by IROCZJEFF

I keep going back in my memory bank to 1993 when the camaro was 275 HP then in 1994 the car 285 HP. In 1996 the SS came out with 305 HP. I wish GM would grab the bull by the horns and come out with the big motor before all the tree hugger's step in and Obama kills the HP wars! Before we know it Obama will have us all driving Toyota's. These cars are not going to last with 500 plus HP! They didn't in the 60's and they will not last now! My point is that what was once the big three is all present and ready to play ball in it's final round with the exception of one. It's forth quarter and long and the Camaro is down by a field goal. Lets get it together GM! IROCZJEFF

Not to nit-pick, but I think 285 horse' Camaros came out in '95 (California and New York emissions cars only - well, dual cat' cars for sure) then in '96, all standard LT1s were 285 I will agree that we better get all the power we can get now, not necessarily because of who's in office, but because of who's making and passing the laws. All the push from the enviornmentalists isn't making it easy for anyone.

Originally Posted by kevin2323

Yes the ss is faster than the srt 8...but it is going to have loads of trouble with the gt500 which by the way is at msrp now. And with a quick pulley swap will get alot of hp increased so The money saved which will probably be only 3-4k between a fully loaded ss and gt500 isnt going to suffice. 10k maybe but I doubt it.That is if it is 30k which I doubt due to the g8 pricing.

I totally agree with this. Pulley, CAI, tune, and a little exhaust and that thing will scream more. Don't try to turn it before the end of the track, but it'll get to the end really quick. You can do a lot of this without breaking the engine open either or operate it out of it's regular range much either (RPM-wise I mean.) I think you'd have to spin the LS3 to like 7K RPMs to make the most of the huge ports in the heads, like LS1s have to do.

Originally Posted by kevin2323

I dont take the SS lightly at all. Hopefully any doubts that chrysler had of coming out with the 6.4 is gone and we will see it in 2010.

That's exactly what I meant I don't think they're going to take kindly to being a new kid too, and getting stepped on by Camaro. I'm sure that 6.4 is going to be around 500+ horse, which is why I'm all bent on an LSA. I hope that we'll be seeing a 500+ horse' war, by the Big Three, here in a couple years. That would be sweet!!!

Originally Posted by MajorTom

... On the subject of modding, the GT500 has the Camaro beat. A pulley swap takes about 10 minutes and with belt and quality pulley will cost you in the neighborhood of 300 dollars or so. You'll be on the road putting out more boost for about 500 bucks. A cam swap will cost you about 1500 dollars. Says my performance tuner for my GTO...

I personally think $1500 is short in keeping an LS3 in straighline competition with the 500, using the same driver. Put slicks on both cars and I think the gap would wide. That $500 for the 500 will go farther than $1500 on the LS3. I'm not hatin' on the LS3, just observing. The 500 is built for it.

Originally Posted by HOTCIVIC

From there the SS can go with a Procharger for $5k, put out 650 rwhp, and still come out less than what the GT500 costs. And you won't have to drive around in an ugly car with a cheap Fisher Price interior.

P.S. The GT500 is 430 rwhp stock. The Camaro would have 500 rwhp with the mods listed. With a pulley the GT500 might be getting closer to the Camaro's power, but then again the GT500 is gonna need more since it weighs more.

(Not tryin to argue - just friendly discussion )

I would've thought a completely Procharger kit would be more, I couldn't tell you though. However, a question I think is important is: how long will that LS3 live under those conditions? I just picked-up a rag' with the ZR1 first drive review in it and the Lead 'Vette Guy (sorry, I can't remember his name - Tadge or something-rather) says that the LS9 is pretty much at the edge of it's envelope. Without increasing the capacity of the cooling system for the intercooler and/or engine will produce high amounts of heat that will deminish the longevity of the engine. That engine has a forged bottom end, Ti rods and intake valves, 12mm bolts, higher density heads, like 4 or 7-layer head gaskets, oil piston squireters, etc. It's BUILT, unlike the LS3. In addition, it has a chassis that will take all that punishment, just like the 500.

My whole deal is the GT500 is a built for this motor. It won't be as easy as strapping on a blower to get it to the same level. JMVHO

Originally Posted by HOTCIVIC

I'm interested in this new Supercharged 6.1 SRT8 Challenger that's supposedly coming out. A Hemi with a S/C would be a bad boy!

I wanna' see a TVS 2300 on that thing! Ouch. I'm betting 700 horse'.

[IROCZJEFF]

Kevin it is nice to see that someone else has $1,000 on a new Camaro as well. I have the first one comming into my dealership but still have concerns if I am going to be happy with only 422 HP. I quess you and I will see if we are going to be happy in March when we take delivery. Jeff

[kevin2323]

Originally Posted by IROCZJEFF

Kevin it is nice to see that someone else has $1,000 on a new Camaro as well. I have the first one comming into my dealership but still have concerns if I am going to be happy with only 422 HP. I quess you and I will see if we are going to be happy in March when we take delivery. Jeff

..............................


I think your going to get mad when I tell you that it is a 1000 deposite on a challenger not a camaro

oh god don't hurt me! lol

[MajorTom]

That's pretty subjective. If I can make the Camaro run 11s and keep it looking stock, people are going to come over and ask me what's done and they will be impressed. At the same time if they see a GT500 running high 12s and it's stock, I think people will be more impressed with what I've got. It's all opinion though - if you really are more impressed with what a car does bone stock then I can't fault you for that - it's your opinion.

You're kinda missing my point. You can compare two cars from the showroom floor. With the same driver, you can say "Well, the SS runs a 13 second 1/4 mile. And the GT500 runs a 12.5. Advantage: GT500." But when you say "The SS with a cold air intake a tune and slicks runs a 12.4 second 1/4 mile. The GT500 runs a 12.5. Advantage: Camaro with cold air intake, tune and slicks." It's not fair because modding has changed the original package. What's impressive is one thing, but what's fair is another.

For a fair unbiased comparison, you want to go stock for stock. Then add the same mod to each car and see which one responds better and so on. It's not fair to compare a modded car to a stock one.

What I'm getting at is: You can't say the Camaro is a faster car or the GT500 is a faster car and have "with the following mods" in parentheses and expect to be taken seriously. It's not objective at that point it's giving unfair advantages to the modded car. That is to say, you can't make that statement and imply that it goes for all Camaros and GT500s.

Also, Kevin is getting a Challenger not a Camaro.

[HOTCIVIC]

Originally Posted by radz282003

I would've thought a completely Procharger kit would be more, I couldn't tell you though. However, a question I think is important is: how long will that LS3 live under those conditions? I just picked-up a rag' with the ZR1 first drive review in it and the Lead 'Vette Guy (sorry, I can't remember his name - Tadge or something-rather) says that the LS9 is pretty much at the edge of it's envelope. Without increasing the capacity of the cooling system for the intercooler and/or engine will produce high amounts of heat that will deminish the longevity of the engine. That engine has a forged bottom end, Ti rods and intake valves, 12mm bolts, higher density heads, like 4 or 7-layer head gaskets, oil piston squireters, etc. It's BUILT, unlike the LS3. In addition, it has a chassis that will take all that punishment, just like the 500.

My whole deal is the GT500 is a built for this motor. It won't be as easy as strapping on a blower to get it to the same level. JMVHO

You make a good point. Personally, I wouldn't Procharge an LSx motor without going in the block and refreshing the internals with forged parts. That's gonna run you some extra $$$. However, you can Procharge an LS1/2/3/6/7 without forged if you have the right tuner. The tune is everything. And you can still make good power.

I see what you are saying about the GT500 already having a built motor. It's the best thing about the GT500 in my opinion. However, I remember when the 03 Cobra guys bragged about having forged internals, and guys starting pushing 600, 700, even 800 rwhp with their Cobras, and you see guys starting to pop motors. A lot of Cobra guys who started modding to those power levels went ahead and refreshed the motor with stronger forged parts. The factory internals were okay, but nothing compared to top of the line forged slugs. My point is that a factory built motor is great for someone who wants to do some light modding and have 500 to 600 at the wheels, run pump gas, and have peace of mind knowing they probably won't blow the motor. But if you are pushing for 700+ power, you are going to need stronger parts anyway. If people think you're gonna get a GT500 to 700 rwhp for cheap, you're in for a rude awakening. To get any car to make 700+ rwhp and be reliable, you are going to need $$$ and lots of it. Personally, I think the 6.2 is a better starting point if you are going forged with a turbo/blower.

[HOTCIVIC]

Originally Posted by MajorTom

You're kinda missing my point. You can compare two cars from the showroom floor. With the same driver, you can say "Well, the SS runs a 13 second 1/4 mile. And the GT500 runs a 12.5. Advantage: GT500." But when you say "The SS with a cold air intake a tune and slicks runs a 12.4 second 1/4 mile. The GT500 runs a 12.5. Advantage: Camaro with cold air intake, tune and slicks." It's not fair because modding has changed the original package. What's impressive is one thing, but what's fair is another.

For a fair unbiased comparison, you want to go stock for stock. Then add the same mod to each car and see which one responds better and so on. It's not fair to compare a modded car to a stock one.

What I'm getting at is: You can't say the Camaro is a faster car or the GT500 is a faster car and have "with the following mods" in parentheses and expect to be taken seriously. It's not objective at that point it's giving unfair advantages to the modded car. That is to say, you can't make that statement and imply that it goes for all Camaros and GT500s.

Also, Kevin is getting a Challenger not a Camaro.

I see what you're saying, but I'm not really into all that what's "fair" and what's "not fair" when it comes to performance cars and racing. Personally, I don't really care if a guy in a stock GT500 thinks it's unfair if my Camaro is modded. He spent $43k and has a blower - if he can't beat my $34k N/A Camaro with a cam and bolt-ons, then maybe he should re-think his purchase. (Or go get some mods)

If I ran into a modded GT500 and he beat me, I wouldn't think it's "unfair". I'd just be like, "Umm, well it's time to go get some mods!"

The bottom line is that we can't do anything about what GM decides to do about the Z28. The only thing we can do is look at what's offered and choose what's best for us. Personally, I love the Camaro and I am willing to buy one with less power than whatever Ford or Dodge offers because it's a better platform for me. Maybe someone else prefers the GT500 because it offers a better platform for him. I'm just glad that we are able to choose between the GT500, Camaro and Challenger. We should enjoy it while it lasts - because cars like these might not be around 10 to 15 years from now.

[Txturbo]

Are GT500s stock........are they built by Ford or someone else? They aren't listed on the Ford website.

[MajorTom]

Hotcivic: It's clear we're talking about two different things. I'm just saying if I were going to write up an article about the two cars and say "The Camaro wins" I wouldn't add some performance parts to the Camaro to give it an edge or to supposedly even the odds.

When you talk platform, I think the GT500 is a good place to start, but I'd still go with a Camaro too. It has the chassis and better suspension than the GT500. With better brakes too. I believe that a Camaro could get to GT500 power levels with a reasonable amount of money and it'd kick the ass of the GT500. So there's no argument there. I too prefer GM over Ford. And the Camaro will do anything the Ford does better. Dodge too if you ask me.

Originally Posted by Txturbo

Are GT500s stock........are they built by Ford or someone else? They aren't listed on the Ford website.

http://www.fordvehicles.com/cars/mustang/models/

It's right there at the top left dude. As well as the GT500kr

[HOTCIVIC]

Originally Posted by MajorTom

Hotcivic: It's clear we're talking about two different things. I'm just saying if I were going to write up an article about the two cars and say "The Camaro wins" I wouldn't add some performance parts to the Camaro to give it an edge or to supposedly even the odds.

I see what you're saying.

Originally Posted by MajorTom

When you talk platform, I think the GT500 is a good place to start, but I'd still go with a Camaro too. It has the chassis and better suspension than the GT500. With better brakes too. I believe that a Camaro could get to GT500 power levels with a reasonable amount of money and it'd kick the ass of the GT500. So there's no argument there. I too prefer GM over Ford. And the Camaro will do anything the Ford does better. Dodge too if you ask me.

Agreed.