Put an LFX intake manifold on your LLT... "The Adaptolator"... Coming soon? Discuss.

[Jason@JacFab]

I've started working on a project I've dubbed "The Adaptolator"... It's essentially a 2 piece intake manifold isolator, but it's main purpose is that it acts as an adapter plate to put the supposedly better performing, light weight, composite LFX intake manifold onto the LLT engine...

Originally Posted by SC2150

...The LFX is a superior intake in its flow/velocity...

The new intake also is composite so the heat soak issue has been resolved resulting in the power gains you see. and yes, it does NOT match up. If it did it would be a great mod!!

I've removed most of the details and negatives on why it won't work from the above quote(s) taken from a couple different posts... IF you could get one on, why wouldn't you? It seems like a great idea.

Those of you that have looked into this previously know that, A) The bolt pattern is slightly different, and B) the ports are a different shape. Enter the Adaptolator. The idea is that the first piece bolts onto the LLT engine, and the second piece bolts to the first and has the LFX bolt pattern. The ports on the Adaptolator will also have a nice transition from the LFX port shape to the LLT port shape...

The pros as I see them:
1)LFX manifold is composite, so lighter weight, and a nice reduction of heat soak issues
2)Higher flow, and more velocity as stated by SC2150. This is always good.
3)The Adaptolator is appx. 1" or ~25mm thick, so much like the isolators currently available, the longer runner length will increase lower end torque.
4) More power?!

Cons? None that I can see?

Potential problems:
1) The vacuum lines and things like that aren't in the same locations, however this should be an easy fix
2) NO LONGER A PROBLEM, see post #22 The LFX appears to use a different throttle body? It is currently unknown whether the LLT throttle body will bolt up to the LFX manifold. If it does, there isn't a problem... If it doesn't, but the LLT and LFX use the same wiring connector, and wiring scheme, no problem... If neither, this could be remedied by either a) a simple plug and play harness or b) an adapter plate to mount the LLT throttle body to the LFX manifold.

Issues on my end:
Testing on my end may be a problem as 1) My v6 test car is a 2013 LFX car 2) It's hard to source a local car that is willing to test.
I would be open to sending everything to the right Camaro 5 member that would be excited to test this mod, but said person would have to be mechanically inclined enough to over come the potential problems listed above...

Worst case scenario, I may have to try to "rent" a 2010 LLT car for testing... Shouldn't be too big of a problem, but as I live in a small rural area, it's doubtful that I will be able to find a place to rent one from here. I may have to drive 4 hrs north and rent one, and do same day testing at a dyno facility up north... Not the end of the world, but could be an inconvenience.

Progress:
I have the CAD files drawn up for both the LLT and LFX intake flanges. I would have a prototype cut and ready for trial very soon, however I am still lacking an LFX manifold, LFX and LLT throttle bodies for testing... I am currently searching for all of the above listed items.

I don't see where this has been done yet, if so, what was the outcome? I'm pretty excited about this, as the aftermarket dept. for the v6 cars is limited, so this could open a new window.

Thoughts? Awesome ?! Or am I just wasting my time here?

[lscamaro]

LLT throttle body won't mount up to the LFX. Connector is in a different place as well. Whether the wiring itself is different has yet to be seen

[kjkjr27]

One issue I see is that the gains would have to atleast be close to the gains that can be had by having the LLT IM ported. Even if the gains are slightly lower the lighter weight would be a huge plus.

[hapisok]

i think this is an awesome idea.

how well do the ports match up?

is there a difference in port volume between the LFX manifold and the LLT heads?

what gains do you expect to see with the addition of the LFX manifold in comparison to just the insulator to eliminate heat soak?

will porting present an issue?

being different shapes, how will turbulence and velocity be effected?

what material are you using for the adaptolator?

what will the kit cost, to include the LFX IM and adaptolator plate (expected cost)?

sorry for all the questions and definitely not trying to put you on blast. i've got way more respect for you than that, just curious as to what your thoughts are.



i think you'd almost be better off designing a new IM for the LLT. not sure it would be worth the cost/return though. i was working on one back in the day...up until the accident which forced me to purchase an LS3. had a couple hundred hours invested and luckily resources at my disposal that eliminated a lot of the cost in R&D for design and manufacture of the parts. its very time consuming and labor intensive when it comes to cast and mold, fiberglass, and all that fun stuff that we like to do. maybe even just a modified LFX intake that would be a direct bolt on to the LLT? i haven't seen the LFX so i don't know the challenges faced. but the increase in runner length was one of my favorite mods with the insulator. either way, good luck and hope it works out. its good to see that you are constantly pushing the envelope with your innovative ideas.

good luck bro

[Jason@JacFab]

Originally Posted by lscamaro

LLT throttle body won't mount up to the LFX. Connector is in a different place as well. Whether the wiring itself is different has yet to be seen

Thank you for the info, that's what I figured, but not having my hands on them yet I wasn't sure.

Originally Posted by hapisok

i think this is an awesome idea.

how well do the ports match up?
They are fairly close, mostly a shape change... see picture below.

is there a difference in port volume between the LFX manifold and the LLT heads?
I am not sure, I don't have my hands on either head yet, but judging from the LFX vs LLT port picture, I would imagine that if they are roughly the same length that the LFX port volume is bigger if it holds the shape all the way though the port length.

what gains do you expect to see with the addition of the LFX manifold in comparison to just the insulator to eliminate heat soak?
I honestly have no idea, the only info I really have to go off of is what was quoted from SC2150 @ rx above... I would have to get both manifolds in my hands w/ their perspective heads to check how big of a flow difference there really is... I DO however think that it would be worth while to at least test it. There could be a nice gain.

will porting present an issue?
Are you talking about the head side? Or the manifold? I'm uncertain, but I doubt there would be a problem.

being different shapes, how will turbulence and velocity be effected?
Hard to say, but with a nice 1" transition I don't think turbulence will be a problem. As the LFX port is bigger and being "funneled" down into the LLT port, I would imagine that it would act like small velocity stacks (to a point) and increase velocity a bit... I hear these engines love velocity.


what material are you using for the adaptolator?
I could use a similar reinforced phenolic resin type material that most of the isolators are made of w/ thread inserts, but due to the fact that the LFX manifold is already a composite material and heat soak isn't as big of an issue as with the LLT manifold, I think I could also be fine just using aluminum as it's more cost effective for me to get, and is easily machinable which I wouldn't need to have threaded inserts, etc... The first prototype for testing will more than likely be made from aluminum as it's easily accessible, and cheap, and should show if there is a decent gain with this mod regardless of material composition.

what will the kit cost, to include the LFX IM and adaptolator plate (expected cost)?
It's really too early to say what the Adaptolator itself will cost. I have not priced a NEW LFX intake manifold from the dealer, and am still looking into the cost of used ones from a junkyard.

sorry for all the questions and definitely not trying to put you on blast. i've got way more respect for you than that, just curious as to what your thoughts are.
Not a problem... I think that the mod is deffinitely worth testing at least once to see if it's worth pursuing, but given that i'm still collecting parts, and info, I don't have all the data I would like to have at the moment.



i think you'd almost be better off designing a new IM for the LLT. not sure it would be worth the cost/return though. i was working on one back in the day...up until the accident which forced me to purchase an LS3. had a couple hundred hours invested and luckily resources at my disposal that eliminated a lot of the cost in R&D for design and manufacture of the parts. its very time consuming and labor intensive when it comes to cast and mold, fiberglass, and all that fun stuff that we like to do. maybe even just a modified LFX intake that would be a direct bolt on to the LLT? i haven't seen the LFX so i don't know the challenges faced. but the increase in runner length was one of my favorite mods with the insulator. either way, good luck and hope it works out. its good to see that you are constantly pushing the envelope with your innovative ideas.

good luck bro

I think a completely new manifold is out of the question at this time. As you mentioned, cost would be huge, and I can think of better projects to put the funds toward (Cold Rush).

If nothing else comes of this, at least I will have an "isolator" for my LFX to increase runner length, which I know will be worth while.

I am hoping the LFX manifold w/ an Adaptolator will be a big hit with the LLT crowd, and am excited to see what kind of gains there are to be had.

Constructive criticism, and any info on making this happen is welcome.

LLT ports in red, and LFX ports in blue posted below.

[J_Vibe92]

very interesting. definitely subscribed

[Jason@JacFab]

Of course I decided I couldn't wait to start... The etching quality is something to be desired, but for a first prototype, I can live with it.

This one will be hand ported. I'll work on that next week, then drop it off to be anodized.

I did some research, and unfortunately, I can not rent a Camaro in my area from any of the car rental places. So if I want to rent one, I'll have to drive for 4 hours to get one...

Supposed to have an LFX TB on the way, just need an intake manifold now, and a car/volunteer to test.

[hapisok]

damn! there is a huge difference between the ports. but if you work it right, i think you can maintain/increase velocity like you said with the shaping of the runners. there is definitely more volume when it comes to air flow with the LFX which im sure has something to do with it. should make for an interesting project.

i was talking about porting the head side earlier. i know there are some previous threads where the heads were slightly ported to match the gasket between the intake manifold, insulator and the heads. bringing me to another question...how do you plan to marry the IM to the adaptolator to the heads? with the insulators/ICEolator, the gaskets have been used as well as permatex. im guessing you'd have to use permatex to join everything nice and tight as the gaskets might present a challenge.

im excited to see how the testing goes. should be very interesting to say the least. i think port matching will be your biggest challenge, not difficult, but maintaining the air flow through the transitions to provide the greatest increase in air flow will be the most beneficial.

i agree that trying to create a new IM is more than its worth. its sad to say, but GM did go to a different build which really hindered the aftermarket for the LLT. i think there are decent gains to be had be a redesigned IM though...but i doubt it'll ever be brought to fruition. so i think the direction you're going is the next best thing utilizing the current technology produced by GM.

[KMPrenger]

Saw this thread pop up last night but wasn't able to respond, but that said I think this is very cool stuff! In the very least I think it is pretty awesome that we have at least the possibility of another mod for the LLT!

I think most of the questions I had have been raised already. Although the ports are different, I also believe with the right porting done, it could work out perfect with a slight increase in velocity.

By the way, how thick are these adapter plates?

Not sure if I understand correctly, but sounds like the adapter plate would have depression holes in it where you could bolt it down to the engine...say with short 40 or 50 mm bolts. There would be an LLT gasket under it. The adaptor would then have threads rising off of it which would match up for the LFX intake, and then you would slide an LFX gasket down on it, and then slide the LFX intake on top of that, and tighten it down with nuts. Is that the basic plan?

I'm also worried about fitting the throttle body. I had my old stock LLT TB just sitting around as of a few weeks ago, but I decided to sell it. If I hadn't done that I'd of shipped it off to you for use if you wanted.

I applaud your efforts here for sure! If nothing else, maybe you'll at least have a plate for the LFX owners to increase runner length which may add some low end torque. Not sure how easy it is for you to do dyno testing, but you may want to simply try that out on your LFX before you do anything else and see what, if any gains there are.

Also, I noticed you have a 2013 LFX. I have read that tuning for the 2013 is different than even the 2012 even though they have a Delphi ECM...there is some difference there. Have you looked into this to see if tunes are available for the 2013s?

[Jason@JacFab]

Originally Posted by KMPrenger

Saw this thread pop up last night but wasn't able to respond, but that said I think this is very cool stuff! In the very least I think it is pretty awesome that we have at least the possibility of another mod for the LLT!

I think most of the questions I had have been raised already. Although the ports are different, I also believe with the right porting done, it could work out perfect with a slight increase in velocity.

By the way, how thick are these adapter plates?
They are both 1/2" thick, which would put the total set up at about 1" thick (~25mm).

Not sure if I understand correctly, but sounds like the adapter plate would have depression holes in it where you could bolt it down to the engine...say with short 40 or 50 mm bolts. There would be an LLT gasket under it. The adaptor would then have threads rising off of it which would match up for the LFX intake, and then you would slide an LFX gasket down on it, and then slide the LFX intake on top of that, and tighten it down with nuts. Is that the basic plan?
Yes, the first plate will have counter sunk bolt holes and use flat head screws, there will be an LLT gasket under it. The mounting holes that bolt the adapter plate to the first plate will also be counter sunk as to not interfere with the LFX gasket, and the LFX intake manifold mounting surface. The holes to mount the LFX intake manifold to the top plate will be threaded with the LFX intake manifold bolt pattern, so in theory, you could just use the stock LFX intake manifold bolts to secure it to the plate.


I'm also worried about fitting the throttle body. I had my old stock LLT TB just sitting around as of a few weeks ago, but I decided to sell it. If I hadn't done that I'd of shipped it off to you for use if you wanted.
One way or another, this should be an easy problem to over come. I appreciate the offer to use your old TB. I just picked up an LLT tb this morning, and have a line on an LFX TB.

I applaud your efforts here for sure! If nothing else, maybe you'll at least have a plate for the LFX owners to increase runner length which may add some low end torque. Not sure how easy it is for you to do dyno testing, but you may want to simply try that out on your LFX before you do anything else and see what, if any gains there are.
Absolutely, it was one of the reasons I started this project... Once the car is "broke in" I will start playing with it and dyno along the way.

Also, I noticed you have a 2013 LFX. I have read that tuning for the 2013 is different than even the 2012 even though they have a Delphi ECM...there is some difference there. Have you looked into this to see if tunes are available for the 2013s?
No, I have no desire to tune the car at this time.

Responses in red above.

Another use for this is that if it should show that LFX manifold does not show a worth while gain on the LLT engine, seeing as how nobody is porting the LFX manifold that I've found, this could also easily be redone to put a ported LLT manifold onto the LFX engine for a gain. This of course depends on how the LFX manifold compares to the LLT manifold stock (ported), etc...

['11CamaroLS]

good to see more ideas and mods being tried out for the LLT.

[solteroblues]

Do runner lengths really make a difference on DI engines? Long runners were for letting the air/fuel mix better before it got to the combustion chamber. On a DI engine, its just making the air travel further. I don't see how it could provide much of a benefit. Unless velocity increase makes a difference.

[KMPrenger]

Originally Posted by solteroblues

Do runner lengths really make a difference on DI engines? Long runners were for letting the air/fuel mix better before it got to the combustion chamber. On a DI engine, its just making the air travel further. I don't see how it could provide much of a benefit. Unless velocity increase makes a difference.

We've had this discussion in the past, and you have a good point. I don't think we ever came to a conclusion on it, but I think velocity has to do with it...and obviously on the LLT engine the heat soak (or reduction of) played a big role.

If he can show gains on an LFX with an adapter plate, that will pretty much put any question to rest that the gains are from cool air alone.

[Jason@JacFab]

Originally Posted by solteroblues

Do runner lengths really make a difference on DI engines? Long runners were for letting the air/fuel mix better before it got to the combustion chamber. On a DI engine, its just making the air travel further. I don't see how it could provide much of a benefit. Unless velocity increase makes a difference.

Originally Posted by KMPrenger

We've had this discussion in the past, and you have a good point. I don't think we ever came to a conclusion on it, but I think velocity has to do with it...and obviously on the LLT engine the heat soak (or reduction of) played a big role.

If he can show gains on an LFX with an adapter plate, that will pretty much put any question to rest that the gains are from cool air alone.

It has more to do than just air/fuel mixtures... It's been a common theory since as long as I can remember that longer runners make more torque regardless of the intake manifold being dry (air only) or wet (fuel and air)... It's got a lot to do with harmonics, and resonance. Doesn't matter whether the fuel in injected at the beginning or the end of the manifold, or not inside it at all... Runner length will make a difference.

From all of the dyno stuff that I've seen with LLT manifold isolators, the powerband always seems to shift to the left... I don't know about you guys, but I'm all about moving the powerband into a more usable area... I don't need a v6 engine with a 7k rpm redline.

In other news, I did a little work on The Adaptolator today, and got the 2 pieces bolted together so they can start being ported to match this week... I also bit the bullet and ordered a new LFX intake manifold, the LFX TB I had a lead on kinda didn't work out (was just going to take longer than I had hoped), so I also ordered a new LFX TB, as well as an LLT TB, both TB gaskets, as well as an LFX exhaust flange gasket for another project I'm going to work on.

For those wondering, the brand new LFX intake manifold cost me $269 before shipping. I'm not sure what the MACE Eng. porting job costs, but we'll see how the LFX manifold stacks up against it in the near future... This could also end up being a win win for the LFX guys because if the LFX manifold sucks, The Adaptolator could easily be reversed to put a ported LLT manifold on the LFX for a gain... Either way, it should prove to be useful.