Take me to School (Informative)

[FaytalsCamaro]

Originally Posted by Da Mammer

Your old pal from the other thread here. Look up a horsepower tv episode where they buy a crate ls3 and hook it up to an engine dyno. 490hp were their results.
Mind=blown yet? they didn't have any water pump or power steering pump or alternator or ac compressor or idler pulley or anything else. So it's possible to make more power than the factory rating

That has nothing to do with bolt ons. Of course a factory engine with nothing attached is gonna make that much more over an engine in an actual vehicle.

What I'm saying is you won't get very much past the factory crank rating with rwhp without internal engine modifications or FI

But if you want to use the engine alone by itself...490 hp is what the engine Dyno got. That is the max for that engine. What is the RWHP rating for a car at 490 crank? Around 420-430

[solteroblues]

like someone else said, the SAE rating is of the stock engine with all of the stock accessories, so if you improve on those stock accessories, then the engine will make more power. So for example, if stock SAE rating is 426 and you put headers on that increase flow say by 30 hp, then if the same engine was dynoed again, the SAE rating with the new headers would then be 456. SAE is just a standard rating method. That's how the factory changes the stock SAE rating, by improving flow through better headers, air intakes, etc.... Basically the same way we do.

[Da Mammer]

Originally Posted by FaytalsCamaro

That has nothing to do with bolt ons. Of course a factory engine with nothing attached is gonna make that much more over an engine in an actual vehicle.

What I'm saying is you won't get very much past the factory crank rating with rwhp without internal engine modifications or FI

It has everything to do with the question assuming a 15% power loss you need 501 hp to get to your 426 sae. So 490 (electric power steering, electric water pump, no a/c), running without an alternator even (1/4mile drag do it all the time),+ proper exhaust, underdrive pulley, proper tune, will get you well over the 501 needed. The 426 sae is rated with all accesory drive and a longevity based tune. Yes there is an extent in which you won't get any more power but you can certainly beat the 426

[Egon]

Are you asking if the theoretical maximum output to the rear wheels is limited to the original SAE rating of 426 HP with just bolt on modificatoins?

[FaytalsCamaro]

Originally Posted by Egon

Are you asking if the theoretical maximum output to the rear wheels is limited to the original SAE rating of 426 HP with just bolt on modificatoins?

Yea that's what I'm stating! With simple bolt ons. Obviously with the different settings of dynos that we use you may see a few hp + or - of 426 but for the most part without a internal modifications to the engine or FI that's the limit. With the exception of factory freaks.

[strych9]

The short answer is, yes. Headers, CAI, scoop, and underdrive pulley will get you damn close, with a tune. No internals.

[Egon]

The LS3’s SAE rating of 426 HP is by no means a maximum limit to how much power that engine can produce at the rear wheels. The SAE rating is just given so that we can compare the expected output from one engine to another in a stock form. (some LS3’s will make more power and some will make less) It isn’t as if it’s an immutable physical law like the speed of light. Many external modifications in combination can surpass the SAE 426 HP rating so that the vehicle will produce more than 426 HP at the rear wheels.

[FaytalsCamaro]

Originally Posted by Egon

The LS3’s SAE rating of 426 HP is by no means a maximum limit to how much power that engine can produce at the rear wheels. The SAE rating is just given so that we can compare the expected output from one engine to another in a stock form. (some LS3’s will make more power and some will make less) It isn’t as if it’s an immutable physical law like the speed of light. Many external modifications in combination can surpass the SAE 426 HP rating so that the vehicle will produce more than 426 HP at the rear wheels.

Let me say this I've tried to make it clear that there are factory freaks and dynos not being really standardized that can change up the numbers a bit. But for the most part you won't get passed that 426 by much. By much I mean if your Camaro is let's say 365 at the wheels your not gonna see north of 430-435 by doing simple bolt ons. If you have a factory freak and are putting down 380 at the wheel baseline. Then the 426 obviously doesn't apply to you cause your car is a freak lol. Not gonna see more than 450-455 at the wheel with simple bolt ons. That make sense at all? At least that has been my understanding

[christianchevell]

SO you get a CAI for 16 h.p., a nice set of headers for 35 hp, and better flowing exhaust with x pipe free flowing more 10 hp, a tune 20 h.p. add that up and your at 426+16+35+10+20= 507 minus parasitic loss due to IRS etc....and no problem your above 426 to the rear wheels, there are people on here with more than that and just bolt ons. Then consider things you can do that are sort of a bolt on....change rear end gear....good for about 1/2 second in the quarter mile, change the intake manifold ....spendy but much to want as the stock manifold is great and the gain is only a couple h.p. for a thousand bucks and a different torque range...., A ported throttle body...10 h.p. maybe.....and just a couple hundred bucks...worth it....etc

[FaytalsCamaro]

And if me using the LS3 is confusing people think of it this way. Whatever your car does on a Dyno completely stick, multiply by .85 to find the crank hp. That number you get, you won't be able to get very much above that without more serious mods

[Mindz]

Here's a question for you faytal. Why would you want to know if you can make more than the 426 at the wheels with external mods/forced induction. There are two analogies I can think of that may help you.

First one:
Imagine you're lifting a sac of bricks by a length of rope. You can pick up a 200 lb sack of bricks by yourself, but that's as much as you can lift.
No take that sack of bricks with rope and attach it to multiple pulleys. Now you can lift 2000 lbs of bricks. You aren't any stronger, but you're working easier to lift the sack of bricks. Same premise behind engines and here's why.

Second analogy:
An engine is just an air machine. More air in + more air out = more power.
CAI and exhaust and headers free up the air restriction, allowing for more air in and out.
Forced induction does the same thing by forcefully blowing more air into the engine. This frees up the restriction even more, but it does the same thing as a CAI.

Cams push the valve down lower, or keep the valves open longer, allowing more air in and out of the cylinders. Again, more air moved = more power. Cams just vary the amount of air by changing the timing and how far the valves open.

Cold Air intakes/intercoolers cool the air to make it more dense. Colder/denser air has more air molecules per square inch than hotter air, so again you're getting more air in the cylinder to be compressed and make a larger or more powerful explosion.

Methanol cools air in a similar fashion. Ever go water skiing, or get out of a pool and feel the wind? it's a LOT colder than if you weren't wet. if you spray a miniscule amount of water/methanol into the air as it's going into intake, you have even colder air to be compressed.

Pretty much anything you do to your car aside from change the flammability of the air via nitrous oxide (similar to meth), is just making the engine work easier. The only limiting factor is the engine components structural integrity (Iron vs. aluminum vs. steel etc.) not the amount of air restriction.

Does that make sense?

BTW, I just stated my knowledge of meth/cams. Those could be wrong but that's what I have come to learn how they work.

[Mindz]

Originally Posted by FaytalsCamaro

And if me using the LS3 is confusing people think of it this way. Whatever your car does on a Dyno completely stick, multiply by .85 to find the crank hp. That number you get, you won't be able to get very much above that without more serious mods

You mean divide. If you multiply, you'll get 85% of the dyno numbers which will be lower than the dyno numbers.

[Moreno1]

It may be hard to pass 426 rwhp with Bolt ons, but that is not related to the SAE rating at all. The SAE rating is just a rating of the engine output in stock form.

SAE rating does NOT "limit" engine output with bolt ons.

[litle88]

Originally Posted by christianchevell

SO you get a CAI for 16 h.p., a nice set of headers for 35 hp, and better flowing exhaust with x pipe free flowing more 10 hp, a tune 20 h.p. add that up and your at 426+16+35+10+20= 507 minus parasitic loss due to IRS etc....and no problem your above 426 to the rear wheels, there are people on here with more than that and just bolt ons. Then consider things you can do that are sort of a bolt on....change rear end gear....good for about 1/2 second in the quarter mile, change the intake manifold ....spendy but much to want as the stock manifold is great and the gain is only a couple h.p. for a thousand bucks and a different torque range...., A ported throttle body...10 h.p. maybe.....and just a couple hundred bucks...worth it....etc

Wooooow that there post is ricer math! Lol it don't work that way.

Yes it can surpass 426 crank hp, because that is what it's rated to on an engine stand with the stock components IE intake, stock exhaust with cats and stock calibration. So yes adding Lt's a CAI and tuning will add more than 426!