Please GM...upgrade the pistons in the LSA

[Super83Z]

A quick google brings up many topics on many different car message boards. The general consensus is Hypers get you by with mild FI set-ups. Forged is always the preferred way to go though.

GM has a tendency to go 99 yards and dive on the brakes. Then just do one thing that is so stupid and mind boggling that it makes you scratch your head for days.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by rodimus prime

Why is it strange for penny pinching gm? They used the same 10 bolt for camaros making 90hp more on an already stressed rear-end. Why would they put a tr6060 in a car thats right at the max rated torque output?

Ill tell you why. Because its GM.

Originally Posted by Super83Z

GM has a tendency to go 99 yards and dive on the brakes. Then just do one thing that is so stupid and mind boggling that it makes you scratch your head for days.

I really think that's in perception...use of hyper pistons was no-doubt related to reliability/emissions priorities. We know they aren't ideal for performance, but they DO have benefits in other areas.

[radz28]

Originally Posted by rodimus prime

Emissions will have 0 effect from either piston. Thats redicules.

The one thread I would like ford guys in and they are nowhere to be found.

Why would you want a lesser quality product when you could have a safer motor for maybe a couple hundred bucks more?

I mean they could put single exhaust on the camaro to make it cheaper. It worked on 4th gens. They could cheaper brakes on the 5th gen...why do we need brembos when most people wont drive it to the limits of its stopping ability. Why should the majority have to pay for what few will use?..Sound familar?

For that matter why put an ls3 in the camaro...few will take it to the track. So the car doesnt need all the power.



HELLO 6 CYLINDER CAMARO!!!! For people that want the looks without the performance.

HELLO SS for people that want a well priced sports car.

HELLO Z28 for people that want a car to beat on GT500s. In order to beat on the compitition you need to be at least.......at the very least equal with it as far as features and benifits.

Forged pistons would be a feature.

Less worry about gernading your motor would be the benifit. A huge one at that. The iffy guy looking between the z28 and the GT500 would probably go with the GT500 because they would sell the shit out of the motor being forged and sell them on doubt with the non-forged z28 motor.

"I can understand that you like the looks of the z28 a bit more over the gt500, however wouldnt you feel more comfortable knowing that you have a fully forged motor that you dont have to worry about breaking if you decide to modify it some"

Thats all a salesman would have to say to a guy on the fence between the two.

While it may not matter at WOT after the car's been running 20 miles, they have to worry about cold-start emissions too. Forge slugs expand more, therefore, when they're cold, they seal less, which means the engine is less efficient and makes more pollution. It's already been stated as one of the drawbacks to forged pistons, and if I remember right, why Ford went from forged to hypers' back after the 5.0 EFI engine first came out 20 years ago (at least that's what I thought I remembered reading, lol). It's not too much different than the reasons there are no CARB-exempt long tube headers. They take too long to light off the cats', they're far enough away from the exhaust ports to oftentimes keep them hot enough, and among other things, they bleed off energy and heat, and it's those elements, with others, that contribute to overall efficiency. The heat I remembered reading about about piston slap, oil consumption and all the other LS-related stuff ten-plus years ago because the pistons were rockin' in the block almost make me happier if they kept LSA pistons. They didn't burn-up in all that validation testing. They didn't burn up in Germany on the 'Ring. Ultimate power potential won't be there, but it'll be more reliable than an FI'd engine with regular 'uertectics. I had piston slap out the aZZ on my '02, and it never went away. Never sprayed, FI'd; totally OEM long block with most bolt-ons. Slapped since I got it, day one, with 4,000 miles on the clock. Sucked oil too (though, that wasn't until after the converter, which I think was then and additional problem with ring flutter that I read about...). If these pistons will take an honest 700 FWHP with relative ease (relative to LS3/L99) I think that's a great start. Not as good as LS9 and GT500, but really good. If there are NVH benefits GM can tout and support, then the playing field levels out, I think.

Originally Posted by Super83Z

I just hope they think long and hard about this one. I don't want to see another 10-bolt like weaklink that keeps the cars from being great.

Performance cars should get performance parts.

The only reason the Cadillac got the Hypers is for NVH. That won't be an issue with the Z28.

Word. I think they can give up a little NVH for us Camaro guys. We'll see though...

+2 on the 10-bolt too.

Originally Posted by Super83Z

A quick google brings up many topics on many different car message boards. The general consensus is Hypers get you by with mild FI set-ups. Forged is always the preferred way to go though.

GM has a tendency to go 99 yards and dive on the brakes. Then just do one thing that is so stupid and mind boggling that it makes you scratch your head for days.

Brakes don't look like a problem this time, fortunately. It makes me wonder if/what they'd upgrade for Z28

[nfamous209]

Originally Posted by rodimus prime

Why is it strange for penny pinching gm? They used the same 10 bolt for camaros making 90hp more on an already stressed rear-end. Why would they put a tr6060 in a car thats right at the max rated torque output?

Ill tell you why. Because its GM.

umm u know the t56 in the vette and camaro was rated at like 400 right? which pretty much "maxed" out from the factory. factory specs is to steer people away from modding. and i could swear i've seen a few t56 tranny's supporting well over 700whp and wtq. i think not sure. i'm sure the tr6060 will do the same .

pretty sure the LSA will be capable of 700-800whp, i'm sure they want it to be gt500 competitor so they'll make it to be able to handle gt500 type of power when it comes to modding.

[GM4lyfe]

Originally Posted by rodimus prime

Why is it strange for penny pinching gm? They used the same 10 bolt for camaros making 90hp more on an already stressed rear-end. Why would they put a tr6060 in a car thats right at the max rated torque output?

Ill tell you why. Because its GM.

Originally Posted by nfamous209

umm u know the t56 in the vette and camaro was rated at like 400 right? which pretty much "maxed" out from the factory. factory specs is to steer people away from modding. and i could swear i've seen a few t56 tranny's supporting well over 700whp and wtq. i think not sure. i'm sure the tr6060 will do the same .

pretty sure the LSA will be capable of 700-800whp, i'm sure they want it to be gt500 competitor so they'll make it to be able to handle gt500 type of power when it comes to modding.

Yes the T56 is rated at 400-450ft-lbs. They was behind the GTO, Corvette ect that made that much or even more at the flywheel. People have put more than that through them without any problems including me. In fact people will break something else in the drivetrain before the tranny would let go. The TR-6060 is rated at 600 ft-lbs.

[HaveBlue]

Originally Posted by rodimus prime

Emissions will have 0 effect from either piston. Thats redicules.

I think you mean ridiculous there Transformer. And yes it would be, if that is what I meant.
What I'm referring to, is that your suggesting that you want to modify the engine beyond it's stock power & emissions output. It's the extreme tune, long tubes and everything you want the forged pistons for, that are not street legal. Why should GM supply those for you when only 3-5% of the cars get modified (SEMA statistics). And even then most of those not anywhere near the levels you want. That leaves the other 97% paying for your pistons.

Let's see the Mustang makes 540 Hp & 510 ft lbs of torque. Ford has to use an iron truck block and stronger parts to make it live.

The LSA make 550 HP & 550 ft lbs of torque. All aluminum engine. Innovative inverted supercharger design (patented on the NorthStar V8 in the STS-V)and it's met all of GM durability testing for a 100,000 mile warranty.

Do you have idea what an engineering marvel these motors and cars are? 10 years ago you wouldn't have dreamed of production cars like these for under $150,000.

Have you driven a Z06? Amazing car & engine. In fact I'd prefer the LS7 over the LSA in the Z28. I had a 2003 supercharged Cobra. Was ok in a straight line but plowed like a pig on a road course. I don't drive a dyno. Gave up on peak HP numbers long ago as being silly for street cars. Give me a good torque curve. Stratospheric WOT numbers usually translate into poor drive-ability.

The sad, sad truth is the days of these cars are probably numbered. Future CAFÉ requirements of 35mpg for cars and 30mpg for light trucks (many previously exempt) means smaller cars and engines. Or sell a ton of Volts to offset them.

The argument that it's only a few dollars more shows that you've never worked for a large bureaucratic manufacturing company. The paperwork alone for the QS/ISO certification would be horrendous.

I think maybe your problem would be solved by just buying a GT500.

[Super83Z]

Everyone of you arguments against forged pistons are over run by two statements: GT500 and LS9.

If the LSA comes with hypers I expect the Z28 to beat the GT500 in price then. Since it would be obvious that they were "doing everything they can to keep cost down" . Ford knew its buyers were going to be modding the hell out of their cars and spent the money where it counted. Look at the reputation that the Terminator and GT500 cars have now. The Camaro will be known for running great stock but don't mod it, because it will blow.

I know someone else said it, but WTF are the Mustang guys when you actually need them.

[Super83Z]

Originally Posted by HaveBlue

I think maybe your problem would be solved by just buying a GT500.

We shouldn't expect the Camaro to compete? The whole reason I have been holding out buying a 2010 is because of the Z28.

I mean so has the new Camaro been destined for mediocrecy already? Now is the time to ask for this, when the car is 2 years away.

Ford has listened to their fans time and again, there is no excuse for GM not to. There are many people that want this car to happen, and we all know that currently as the LSA stands it has a glaring weakspot. I don't want to part with $45K for a car with a glass jaw. GM knows very few people would modify the CTS-V, I just hope they realize that many more will mod their Z28's.

[HaveBlue]

Originally Posted by Super83Z

We shouldn't expect the Camaro to compete? .

I think 550/550 vs 540/510 is competing just fine.

I seriously doubt you'd see a a LSA Z28 for under $50,000.

Again you are arguing that GM should change something based on how you might modify the car. That's just no realistic. I suppose you'd want them to cover your mods under warranty when the tranny and rearend let go?

There is an aftermarket for a reason. As someone said, you wanna play, you gotta pay.

[GM4lyfe]

Originally Posted by Super83Z

The Camaro will be known for running great stock but don't mod it, because it will blow.

You have to venture out because people are making some serious power out of the stock LS3 with FI, thats not to mention previous engines before it. You have to understand the a FI motor spends a fraction of the time under boost. I bet under GM testing they had the LSA full bore WOT 9.5psi for many hours more than what anybody will put that engine through.

Originally Posted by HaveBlue

I think 550/550 vs 540/510 is competing just fine.
Again you are arguing that GM should change something based on how you might modify the car. That's just no realistic. I suppose you'd want them to cover your mods under warranty when the tranny and rearend let go?

There is an aftermarket for a reason. As someone said, you wanna play, you gotta pay.

Well said.

[rodimus prime]

Originally Posted by HaveBlue

Again you are arguing that GM should change something based on how you might modify the car. That's just no realistic. I suppose you'd want them to cover your mods under warranty when the tranny and rearend let go?

There is an aftermarket for a reason. As someone said, you wanna play, you gotta pay.

Hmm last I checked GM was making replacement exhaust and intakes for the SS...surely they didnt expect people to want to mod the car.

This isnt a BMW or some new kid on the block. The Camaro has and always will be a performance car that most people buy with the intent of modding.

Given the 5th gen has attracted a lot of new commers that have no idea about camaros, but just want to own the happening car...they will sell them in a year or so...where it will get bought and modded.

Honestly how many lt1/ls1 camaros have you seen for sale that have 0 mods done to them


By gm not putting forged pistons in the camaro....is essentially bringing a knife to a gun fight.

As for emissions...again, they dont test cars when they are cold. The test them when they are warmed up. They dont put headers on cars from the factory because it costs more than a cast manifold. Not because of emissions. LOL where do you guys come up with this?

So the GT500 has a hard time passing emissions?

[MCPOAJ]

oh jesus you guys should stop complaining and take what you can get you're just luck they even HAVE a Z-28. If the whole forged pistons is that big of a deal get your hands dirty don't expect EVERYTHING to be done for you. lol you guys are lucky you can very easly make a respectible amount of power on the lsa without forged pistons.

[rodimus prime]

Where is the logic in wanting a weak link in a 500 plus hp car?

Seriously we can build a supermax prison, but we are going to put hollow wood doors on the exits. I mean it should hold the prisoners because they are not supposed to try to escape or pound on the doors. Plus we can save a few bucks. Look you guys are lucky we are even building a supermax prision.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by rodimus prime

Where is the logic in wanting a weak link in a 500 plus hp car?

I still fail to understand how it is a weak link in any form for stock and mildly modified applications -- the enigne as-it-is, has been tested and proven to run far LONGER than the LS9 in a lab setting (all variables constant).

This whole exhange seems to be circling around a desire to please the >1% who wants to boost this thing to the moon. It's an easier engine to work on than the 5.4L Ford (what with quad-cam setup, etc), so just open'er up and put your own stuff in there.


I've re-evaluated some of my opinions on this whole thing last night...And I've come to a few personal conclusions. One, the pistons are not little grenades waiting to explode...they are moderately strong units capable of withstanding quite a bit of abuse (no, they are not as capable as forged units). Two, there seems to be a bit of a mystique surrounding the term "forged", resulting in the perception that they're just "better". But the fact is that they aren't necessary when building a factory car (mod at your own risk? This isn't new). Three; the chances of GM modifying such a critical component are low. And four...You'd have to be a fool to not want forged pistons for a performance application, but you'd have to be a bigger fool to not recognize the context surrounding alternative decisions.

There's no telling what GM has in store for the Z28's engine (which we aren't even 100% sure is, in fact, the LSA. So at this point, this discussion is merely the tossing around of ideas between friends. Don't get angry -- and don't get offended.