Speculation of LS7 being in the 2009 SS - Page 2 - Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums

LSxcellent · 06-06-2007, 01:14 PM

I still don't buy it...

Even though Motortrend.com is saying the new CTS-V is going to have a supercharged LS7, I just don't buy it. It doesn't make much sense.

The LS7 is bored out as far as possible to get as many cubes into it as possible, and it is designed as a naturally aspirated engine. The CTS-V is going to be supercharged, which changes EVERYTHING about the engine design... I just don't think the LS7 is the right way to go.

If I were a betting man, I'd wager that the Corvette Z07, the CTS-V, and the Camaro Z28 will all use a supercharged version of the 6.2L LS3 block reinforced for supercharged-duty. This makes a LOT more sense to me.... why?

-The cylinder walls need to be thicker for forced intake engines due to much higher cylinder pressures, the LS7 is bored out too far to support these loads (IMHO).

-The LS7 is already at the limit of its design, it is derived from the C6R racing program which forced them to use a NA engine (due to racing rules). The LS3 is not constrained by this so it would be easier to design in the right supports.

-The supercharger needs to be integrated into the engine valley, the LS7 is already a pretty big engine and I don't know if there is enough room.

-The LS7 is an EXPENSIVE engine due to its use of Titanium connecting rods, forged pistons, etc... I think its TOO expensive for general use in all of these other platforms (Cadillac & Camaro).

That all being said, I would be PSYCHED if they figured out a way to do it... I think the LS7 is one of the best engines on the planet and I would ABSOLUTELY buy one if it were offered in the Camaro!

Either way, GM powertrain engineers are just freaking nuts... 600hp in a Caddy?! SURE! 700hp Corvette?! WHY NOT! I LOVE IT!

All I want is a 600hp Camaro and all will be right with the world!

~LSx

JWz28 · 06-06-2007, 01:32 PM

LSx:

I could work with a 6.2 S/C w/ 600 hp.

Especially with a 5 yr. 100,000 mile warranty.

As far as cost goes for the engine, suspension and other goodies...it's all a matter of cost accounting. These parts have already been developed or are being develped for use in other cars and the more units of production that they can use them on, the quicker the General recoups the cost of development, drives down the cost of production and more competitively prices the car. I think it's brilliant that they are potentially using techonolgies from the Vette, GTO / Holden and Caddie in the new Camaro...use the best balance of parts from each and spread the cost of production. The end result is a new world beast of a Camaro at a competitive price.

JWz28.

TFord · 06-06-2007, 02:22 PM

the possibility of a LS7 in a SS Camaro is'nt that far off. SS camaro usually have had base model vette engines in them. In 09, 2010 corvette is going to the C7 series and GM says that base model vettes will have LS7's in them. so why wouldent camaro ss have LS7's in them. besides the price of them of course. a brand new LS7 costs about 15-17K, and I dont have a clue how much the tranny costs. But I did just see a commercial for a cadillac cts-v thats 600hp with a LS7 engine. so the possibility is there

JWz28 · 06-07-2007, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TFord

the possibility of a LS7 in a SS Camaro is'nt that far off. SS camaro usually have had base model vette engines in them. In 09, 2010 corvette is going to the C7 series and GM says that base model vettes will have LS7's in them. so why wouldent camaro ss have LS7's in them. besides the price of them of course. a brand new LS7 costs about 15-17K, and I dont have a clue how much the tranny costs. But I did just see a commercial for a cadillac cts-v thats 600hp with a LS7 engine. so the possibility is there

You can buy a brand new LS7 crate motor from several sources right now for $12-13K. As more are produced the price will come down. As far as the tranny, the Vette's and CTS-V's use a T56. You can buy a race ready T56 for $2200.

JWz28.

LSxcellent · 06-07-2007, 10:20 AM

From http://www.corvettemuseum.com/specs/2006/LS7.shtml

"The LS7's specifications are significant for a production engine:

505 horsepower @ 6200 rpm
475 lb.-ft. of torque @ 4800 rpm
7000-rpm redline
Unique engine block with larger 104.8-mm (4.125-inch) bores and pressed-in cylinder liners
Forged steel crankshaft with 101.6-mm (4-inch) stroke
Titanium connecting rods
Cast aluminum flat-top pistons
Racing-derived CNC-ported aluminum cylinder heads with titanium intake valves and sodium-filled exhaust valves
Dry-sump oiling system
11.0:1 compression ratio
Camshaft with 15-mm (.591-inch) lift

Hydroformed exhaust headers with unique "quad flow" collector flanges.
All LS7 engines are assembled by hand at GM's new Performance Build Center in Wixom , Mich. The exacting standards to which they are built include deck-plate boring and honing of the cylinders and even crank line-boring of the block with the deck plates and side bolts installed - procedures normally associated with the building of racing engines and almost unheard of in a production-vehicle engine."

There are lots of details like this one that makes me skeptical of the LS7 as a large-volume production engine... I just don't see them being able to maintain this level of quality on a much larger scale... There are LOTS of details like this in this engine that make it hard to produce on a large scale (IMHO).

But I hope I'm wrong...

~LSx

JWz28 · 06-07-2007, 10:37 AM

Keep the faith. 3whiterag keep on wrenching!!!!!! We need more power Scotty!!!!!!!

JWz28.

Eisenhower · 06-07-2007, 11:28 AM

Should the need arise, the corvette Z06's LS7 V-8 stands ready to outmuscle Dodge's Hemi by 80 horsepower. -Bob Lutz

JWz28 · 06-07-2007, 11:45 AM

Ike:
Where did you find this and was it attributed to the up-coming new pony HP war???

JWz28.

LSxcellent · 06-07-2007, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eisenhower

Should the need arise, the corvette Z06's LS7 V-8 stands ready to outmuscle Dodge's Hemi by 80 horsepower. -Bob Lutz

Um, the need HAS arisen! Just ask anyone here!

I think Chevy DOES need to put a 500+hp engine in the new Camaro just to keep pace with Ford and Dodge...

The new Mustang GT (2009) will probably output 350-375hp

The new Challenger will put out 435-450hp

The new Camaro HAS to put out something competative, and the LS7 is a ready-made, proven solution!

That being said, I WOULD shell out some serious $$$ for a supercharged LS7 (even if it meant eating RAMEN noodles for a year or so)... its just going to be SO worth it!

~LSx

TFord · 06-07-2007, 12:28 PM

yeah shelbys got the new GT 500KR (king of the road) coming out in 2008 its packing 540 hp. dodge has the new viper pushing 600 hp. now there are rumors of a vette in 2009 haveing 650-700 hp(with a blown LS7,LS2, or LS3)
and I for get who makes it but theres a supercharger that just came out a couple of months ago for the LS7 its a bolt-on and it takes it from 505 to 645hp. so everybody is trying to be king of the hill right now

Eisenhower · 06-07-2007, 12:32 PM

It's in an older issue of MT. May '06 pg. 49
He, [Bob Lutz] responded to questions about the Camaro concept's 25-horsepower deficit relative to Dodge's Challenger. I wouldn't have posted that if it was just somebody's guess, but they have him stating that, "on the record".

Also, Mr. Lutz is talking to reporters about how many Camaro's GM needs to sell to compete with that of Ford's Mustang... He say's that they need to "offer an entry level V-6 priced just over $20,000, and an affordable V-8 model priced under $30,000".

The cost of an SS model??? Anyone's guess but if GM's going to stick to Mr. Lutz' claims, then I can't see them charging an extra $10,000 for a $6800 engine.

LSxcellent · 06-07-2007, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eisenhower

The cost of an SS model??? Anyone's guess but if GM's going to stick to Mr. Lutz' claims, then I can't see them charging an extra $10,000 for a $6800 engine.

Oh I CAN! I could easily see an SS / Z28 edition costing over $40K! Think about it... The engine cost is JUST the beginning... then you have upgrade brakes, suspension, wheels, tires, interior trim, HID headlamps, body flares, wings, etc. and you could easily add on $10K to the base v8.

A good example of this is the new BMW M3... the 'base' for this car is the $44K 335i Coupe, but the M3 is going to sell for over $60K! Easy money...

My guess FWIW is that the base V8 will go for $29,995 (base, no options) but will most lilely roll out the door around $33-$35K. The Z28 Edition will probably START around $37.5K and roll out the door closer to $42K

~LSx

TFord · 06-07-2007, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LSxcellent

That being said, I WOULD shell out some serious $$$ for a supercharged LS7 (even if it meant eating RAMEN noodles for a year or so)... its just going to be SO worth it!

~LSx

Id be in the cardboard box next to you eating some ramen if they do that..lol

JWz28 · 06-07-2007, 01:26 PM

I know this is somewhat OT, but now I am really confused. I just re-read this article on the new "Blue Devil" ubber Vette. Everyone has been speculating 6.2 or 7.0 Liter S/C engine. I know I have read the article before but must have glossed over it. According to C&D this is what Lutz says about the engine in the Blue Devil:

Lutz won’t divulge engine details except to say the displacement of the new (Blue Devil) powertrain is greater than that of the pushrod 7.0-liter V-8 in the Z06.

Page 2 here's the link: http://www.caranddriver.com/dailyaut...nce-page2.html

Can this be correct? I mean it is Car and Driver.

JWz28.

06-06-2007, 02:22 PM	#17
TFord Camaro Fanatic Drives: 2000 Z28 Join Date: May 2007 Location: Auburn, WA Posts: 1,809 View My Garage	the possibility of a LS7 in a SS Camaro is'nt that far off. SS camaro usually have had base model vette engines in them. In 09, 2010 corvette is going to the C7 series and GM says that base model vettes will have LS7's in them. so why wouldent camaro ss have LS7's in them. besides the price of them of course. a brand new LS7 costs about 15-17K, and I dont have a clue how much the tranny costs. But I did just see a commercial for a cadillac cts-v thats 600hp with a LS7 engine. so the possibility is there Last edited by TFord; 06-06-2007 at 03:17 PM.

06-07-2007, 12:28 PM	#24
TFord Camaro Fanatic Drives: 2000 Z28 Join Date: May 2007 Location: Auburn, WA Posts: 1,809 View My Garage	yeah shelbys got the new GT 500KR (king of the road) coming out in 2008 its packing 540 hp. dodge has the new viper pushing 600 hp. now there are rumors of a vette in 2009 haveing 650-700 hp(with a blown LS7,LS2, or LS3) and I for get who makes it but theres a supercharger that just came out a couple of months ago for the LS7 its a bolt-on and it takes it from 505 to 645hp. so everybody is trying to be king of the hill right now Attached Images

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06-06-2007, 01:14 PM	#15
LSxcellent Drives: MINI Cooper S Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 284	I still don't buy it... Even though Motortrend.com is saying the new CTS-V is going to have a supercharged LS7, I just don't buy it. It doesn't make much sense. The LS7 is bored out as far as possible to get as many cubes into it as possible, and it is designed as a naturally aspirated engine. The CTS-V is going to be supercharged, which changes EVERYTHING about the engine design... I just don't think the LS7 is the right way to go. If I were a betting man, I'd wager that the Corvette Z07, the CTS-V, and the Camaro Z28 will all use a supercharged version of the 6.2L LS3 block reinforced for supercharged-duty. This makes a LOT more sense to me.... why? -The cylinder walls need to be thicker for forced intake engines due to much higher cylinder pressures, the LS7 is bored out too far to support these loads (IMHO). -The LS7 is already at the limit of its design, it is derived from the C6R racing program which forced them to use a NA engine (due to racing rules). The LS3 is not constrained by this so it would be easier to design in the right supports. -The supercharger needs to be integrated into the engine valley, the LS7 is already a pretty big engine and I don't know if there is enough room. -The LS7 is an EXPENSIVE engine due to its use of Titanium connecting rods, forged pistons, etc... I think its TOO expensive for general use in all of these other platforms (Cadillac & Camaro). That all being said, I would be PSYCHED if they figured out a way to do it... I think the LS7 is one of the best engines on the planet and I would ABSOLUTELY buy one if it were offered in the Camaro! Either way, GM powertrain engineers are just freaking nuts... 600hp in a Caddy?! SURE! 700hp Corvette?! WHY NOT! I LOVE IT! All I want is a 600hp Camaro and all will be right with the world! ~LSx

06-06-2007, 01:32 PM	#16
JWz28 Drives: 2012 Z28 (I'm hoping) Join Date: May 2007 Location: Coppell, TX Posts: 129	LSx: I could work with a 6.2 S/C w/ 600 hp. Especially with a 5 yr. 100,000 mile warranty. As far as cost goes for the engine, suspension and other goodies...it's all a matter of cost accounting. These parts have already been developed or are being develped for use in other cars and the more units of production that they can use them on, the quicker the General recoups the cost of development, drives down the cost of production and more competitively prices the car. I think it's brilliant that they are potentially using techonolgies from the Vette, GTO / Holden and Caddie in the new Camaro...use the best balance of parts from each and spread the cost of production. The end result is a new world beast of a Camaro at a competitive price. JWz28.

06-07-2007, 10:20 AM	#19
LSxcellent Drives: MINI Cooper S Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 284	From http://www.corvettemuseum.com/specs/2006/LS7.shtml "The LS7's specifications are significant for a production engine: 505 horsepower @ 6200 rpm 475 lb.-ft. of torque @ 4800 rpm 7000-rpm redline Unique engine block with larger 104.8-mm (4.125-inch) bores and pressed-in cylinder liners Forged steel crankshaft with 101.6-mm (4-inch) stroke Titanium connecting rods Cast aluminum flat-top pistons Racing-derived CNC-ported aluminum cylinder heads with titanium intake valves and sodium-filled exhaust valves Dry-sump oiling system 11.0:1 compression ratio Camshaft with 15-mm (.591-inch) lift Hydroformed exhaust headers with unique "quad flow" collector flanges. All LS7 engines are assembled by hand at GM's new Performance Build Center in Wixom , Mich. The exacting standards to which they are built include deck-plate boring and honing of the cylinders and even crank line-boring of the block with the deck plates and side bolts installed - procedures normally associated with the building of racing engines and almost unheard of in a production-vehicle engine." There are lots of details like this one that makes me skeptical of the LS7 as a large-volume production engine... I just don't see them being able to maintain this level of quality on a much larger scale... There are LOTS of details like this in this engine that make it hard to produce on a large scale (IMHO). But I hope I'm wrong... ~LSx

06-07-2007, 10:37 AM	#20
JWz28 Drives: 2012 Z28 (I'm hoping) Join Date: May 2007 Location: Coppell, TX Posts: 129	Keep the faith. 3whiterag keep on wrenching!!!!!! We need more power Scotty!!!!!!! JWz28.

06-07-2007, 11:28 AM	#21
Eisenhower I drank what? Drives: DANGEROUSLY Join Date: May 2007 Location: check your back seat... Posts: 416	Should the need arise, the corvette Z06's LS7 V-8 stands ready to outmuscle Dodge's Hemi by 80 horsepower. -Bob Lutz

06-07-2007, 11:45 AM	#22
JWz28 Drives: 2012 Z28 (I'm hoping) Join Date: May 2007 Location: Coppell, TX Posts: 129	Ike: Where did you find this and was it attributed to the up-coming new pony HP war??? JWz28.

06-07-2007, 12:32 PM	#25
Eisenhower I drank what? Drives: DANGEROUSLY Join Date: May 2007 Location: check your back seat... Posts: 416	It's in an older issue of MT. May '06 pg. 49 He, [Bob Lutz] responded to questions about the Camaro concept's 25-horsepower deficit relative to Dodge's Challenger. I wouldn't have posted that if it was just somebody's guess, but they have him stating that, "on the record". Also, Mr. Lutz is talking to reporters about how many Camaro's GM needs to sell to compete with that of Ford's Mustang... He say's that they need to "offer an entry level V-6 priced just over $20,000, and an affordable V-8 model priced under $30,000". The cost of an SS model??? Anyone's guess but if GM's going to stick to Mr. Lutz' claims, then I can't see them charging an extra $10,000 for a $6800 engine.

06-07-2007, 01:26 PM	#28
JWz28 Drives: 2012 Z28 (I'm hoping) Join Date: May 2007 Location: Coppell, TX Posts: 129	I know this is somewhat OT, but now I am really confused. I just re-read this article on the new "Blue Devil" ubber Vette. Everyone has been speculating 6.2 or 7.0 Liter S/C engine. I know I have read the article before but must have glossed over it. According to C&D this is what Lutz says about the engine in the Blue Devil: Lutz won’t divulge engine details except to say the displacement of the new (Blue Devil) powertrain is greater than that of the pushrod 7.0-liter V-8 in the Z06. Page 2 here's the link: http://www.caranddriver.com/dailyaut...nce-page2.html Can this be correct? I mean it is Car and Driver. JWz28.