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Old 01-19-2012, 12:17 PM   #15
SC2150
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The dealers are the ones making the money dealing with the results of oil contamination in the intake air charge.....$140-$250 every 10-15k miles for an upper induction cleaning service to help loosen the deposits formed from the oil ingestion. Their own claims are "increased MPG, increased power, rejuvinates your car to the new car power & fuel economy" Much more econonmical to spend $139 and never have to deall with it in the first place.

And for non performance, we sell a toon of these through GM dealers for passenger cars and light trucks and the results on average are 2mpg improvement when the ECU is not pulling timing due to the detonation the oil ingestion causes.

Here is some more data:


Understanding oil contamination from combustion byproducts








The evac system is not for the environment....it is to keep the engine alive and wear free as long as possible. Your not alone and 99% of car owners never think about it or realize whats happening over time. And yes, most will drive 50-75-100k plus miles and never know the damage gradually being done.


My qualifications?


over 35 years building race and performance engines.
Mechanical & Automotive engineer by trade
Graduate of the Reher Morrison Racing engine building school (one of the most respected in the world and a GM R&D contractor).
Owner and driver of drag teams with multiple Divisional, National & World championships in both NHRA & IHRA in several classes (this is where every minute detail in an engine matters)
And I tear down and build most every kind/brand of motor imaginable (except diesel) on a weekly basis.


So here goes:


Every motor has a certain amount of blow-by, the bigger the CI & the more boost the more blow-by (with everything else assumed is equal and no piston/ring/cylinder issue).


Most only look at the crankcase pressure portion and deal with that and that is only a small part of the crankcase evac systems function. The most important is the flushing & removal of the harmful combustion products before they have a chance to condense & settle into the crankcase oil.


These consist of:


Unburnt fuel
Carbon monoxide
water vapor
carbon particles
and several other harmful compounds that when mixed in the crankcase produce Sulfuric acid and as that accumulates past a certain PPM the bearing surfaces, wrist pins, and crank journals begin to be etched and start to damage. This is gradual of course so that’s why like you, most never realize whats happening.


The other very harmful byproduct is the very abrasive carbon particles (near diamond-like in abrasiveness) that many are to small to be caught by the oil filter and accelerate wear as well.


If you have a good cross flow of filtered fresh air entering one side of the crankcase (best is through a flow controlled breather), say the pass side oil fill cap, that fresh air will travel through the pass side valve cover, around the rockers, down the pushrod valley, through the center of the crankcase, (now on the LS6/2/3 valley cover with the fixed orifice it exits there drawn by vacuum so 1/2 the engine is still stagnant with foul compounds...especially the drivers side rocker area) up the drivers side pushrod valley, past the rockers and exits the rear of the drivers side valve cover flushing and pulling the compounds out BEFORE they can settle and condense into the crankcase. Now with out that flow the compounds settle and mix with the oil every time the engine cools. When started and run to operating temp the volatile of those are "flashed off" and again could be evacuated but if just venting with breathers, ONLY the excess crankcase pressure will exit and very little of the harmful compound mix goes with it and once the abrasive carbon particles mix with the oil they are there to stay reducing the protection your oil provides. Now if changing your oil after every track event then this is not an issue. But with a street driven car it is and I can tell you to just look at how dirt your oil gets as far as coloration when you eliminate the evacuation portion of a PCV system, but that tells very little. Send in an oil sample to a good analysis lab and the report back will verify everything I'm saying. The over the road trucking industry does this as a rule, and we do with our race engines as well looking for metal content that tells us a bearing is going away before we could ever detect it and knowing to freshen before a catastrophic failure.


Now back to the LS engine. Any built, big cube, or FI motor cannot breath using the valley cover fixed orifice as it is far to restrictive and excess pressure is a given. So we never use the valley cover vent tube but draw from the rear of the drivers side valve cover.


Now we come to the issue of FI builds that pressurize the intake manifold. Turbo or front mount centri SC systems, the problem with the OEM style system is as soon as you are under boost and the intake is under positive atmosphere you are pressurizing the crankcase directly via the vacuum nipple that evacs under non boost.


The only true solution for street driven cars is a oil separating crankcase evac system that will provide proper, continuous evac while operating under non-boost via the intake vacuum, and as soon as it senses pressurization a check valve senses this and closes blocking any chance of crankcase pressurization. Then as this happens a secondary valve opens and uses the suction/vacuum of the head unit to continue evacuation while the separating can traps & removes all the oil in suspension allowing only the gasses that do not effect the energy released per explosive event (you do NOT want ANY oil entering the intake air charge or residue/varnish forming on the compressor wheels throwing them off balance).


No oil caused detonation, no shortened engine life/increased wear, and the best of everything you need for the motor to perform properly & last as long as possible.



Also. I think my qualifications, background, training and accomplishments lend credibility to what I state......along with regular disscussions with a few GM, Ford & Chrysler engineers through the years where we share info & data (I learn as much from them as I contribute back) on this and numerous other subjects both performance and daily transportation.

Like I said.....I'm not just "some guy" with some race experiance wrenching in his garage. The accomplishments speak for themselves.

Lets discuss details.

:thumbsup
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Old 01-19-2012, 12:34 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SC2150 View Post
The dealers are the ones making the money dealing with the results of oil contamination in the intake air charge.....$140-$250 every 10-15k miles for an upper induction cleaning service to help loosen the deposits formed from the oil ingestion. Their own claims are "increased MPG, increased power, rejuvinates your car to the new car power & fuel economy" Much more econonmical to spend $139 and never have to deall with it in the first place.

And for non performance, we sell a toon of these through GM dealers for passenger cars and light trucks and the results on average are 2mpg improvement when the ECU is not pulling timing due to the detonation the oil ingestion causes.

Here is some more data:


Understanding oil contamination from combustion byproducts








The evac system is not for the environment....it is to keep the engine alive and wear free as long as possible. Your not alone and 99% of car owners never think about it or realize whats happening over time. And yes, most will drive 50-75-100k plus miles and never know the damage gradually being done.


My qualifications?


over 35 years building race and performance engines.
Mechanical & Automotive engineer by trade
Graduate of the Reher Morrison Racing engine building school (one of the most respected in the world and a GM R&D contractor).
Owner and driver of drag teams with multiple Divisional, National & World championships in both NHRA & IHRA in several classes (this is where every minute detail in an engine matters)
And I tear down and build most every kind/brand of motor imaginable (except diesel) on a weekly basis.


So here goes:


Every motor has a certain amount of blow-by, the bigger the CI & the more boost the more blow-by (with everything else assumed is equal and no piston/ring/cylinder issue).


Most only look at the crankcase pressure portion and deal with that and that is only a small part of the crankcase evac systems function. The most important is the flushing & removal of the harmful combustion products before they have a chance to condense & settle into the crankcase oil.


These consist of:


Unburnt fuel
Carbon monoxide
water vapor
carbon particles
and several other harmful compounds that when mixed in the crankcase produce Sulfuric acid and as that accumulates past a certain PPM the bearing surfaces, wrist pins, and crank journals begin to be etched and start to damage. This is gradual of course so that’s why like you, most never realize whats happening.


The other very harmful byproduct is the very abrasive carbon particles (near diamond-like in abrasiveness) that many are to small to be caught by the oil filter and accelerate wear as well.


If you have a good cross flow of filtered fresh air entering one side of the crankcase (best is through a flow controlled breather), say the pass side oil fill cap, that fresh air will travel through the pass side valve cover, around the rockers, down the pushrod valley, through the center of the crankcase, (now on the LS6/2/3 valley cover with the fixed orifice it exits there drawn by vacuum so 1/2 the engine is still stagnant with foul compounds...especially the drivers side rocker area) up the drivers side pushrod valley, past the rockers and exits the rear of the drivers side valve cover flushing and pulling the compounds out BEFORE they can settle and condense into the crankcase. Now with out that flow the compounds settle and mix with the oil every time the engine cools. When started and run to operating temp the volatile of those are "flashed off" and again could be evacuated but if just venting with breathers, ONLY the excess crankcase pressure will exit and very little of the harmful compound mix goes with it and once the abrasive carbon particles mix with the oil they are there to stay reducing the protection your oil provides. Now if changing your oil after every track event then this is not an issue. But with a street driven car it is and I can tell you to just look at how dirt your oil gets as far as coloration when you eliminate the evacuation portion of a PCV system, but that tells very little. Send in an oil sample to a good analysis lab and the report back will verify everything I'm saying. The over the road trucking industry does this as a rule, and we do with our race engines as well looking for metal content that tells us a bearing is going away before we could ever detect it and knowing to freshen before a catastrophic failure.


Now back to the LS engine. Any built, big cube, or FI motor cannot breath using the valley cover fixed orifice as it is far to restrictive and excess pressure is a given. So we never use the valley cover vent tube but draw from the rear of the drivers side valve cover.


Now we come to the issue of FI builds that pressurize the intake manifold. Turbo or front mount centri SC systems, the problem with the OEM style system is as soon as you are under boost and the intake is under positive atmosphere you are pressurizing the crankcase directly via the vacuum nipple that evacs under non boost.


The only true solution for street driven cars is a oil separating crankcase evac system that will provide proper, continuous evac while operating under non-boost via the intake vacuum, and as soon as it senses pressurization a check valve senses this and closes blocking any chance of crankcase pressurization. Then as this happens a secondary valve opens and uses the suction/vacuum of the head unit to continue evacuation while the separating can traps & removes all the oil in suspension allowing only the gasses that do not effect the energy released per explosive event (you do NOT want ANY oil entering the intake air charge or residue/varnish forming on the compressor wheels throwing them off balance).


No oil caused detonation, no shortened engine life/increased wear, and the best of everything you need for the motor to perform properly & last as long as possible.



Also. I think my qualifications, background, training and accomplishments lend credibility to what I state......along with regular disscussions with a few GM, Ford & Chrysler engineers through the years where we share info & data (I learn as much from them as I contribute back) on this and numerous other subjects both performance and daily transportation.

Like I said.....I'm not just "some guy" with some race experiance wrenching in his garage. The accomplishments speak for themselves.

Lets discuss details.

:thumbsup
X100
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Old 01-19-2012, 02:02 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by SC2150 View Post
I'm open to any data you have that ANY modern car or light truck will not see detrimental performance, engine life, fuel economy with out a proper functioning can......Just share the info and we can go over any misconceptions you may have. Just ask that it be actual data with details and not "the GM service writer said, or I know a guy that said" so we can keep it factual.

I have been doing this for 38 years and I still can and do learn new things, but building engines is what I do and this is my area of expertise.

I do agree that many (ebay is an example) throw up any product with a few fittings on and call it a oil separating catchcan, and that is hype.
The fact is neither of us has any real data showing L10 lifetimes of an LS3 with a CC versus an LS3 without a CC. If you do have this data, and not some long synopsis based on what you've 'seen' and 'learned' over the years, please do share it. Until then, I'm just fine without one. Maybe, in 10 years when the car finally craps out, and the rebuild shows evidence it was caused by oil ingestion I'll be eating my words, but right now I'm good with what GM has originally designed.
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Old 01-19-2012, 02:51 PM   #18
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Okay I have a couple of questions now that I have installed my catch can.

Oil is obviously getting into the manifold, but why is it pooling on the floor of the manifold and does that mean it is not making it to the runners and into the combustion chamber?

What is the pool of oil doing during acceleration when there is a high vacuum in the manifold?

I do know that burnt oil will leave deposits on the valves and top of the piston which is not good.
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Old 01-19-2012, 03:08 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by asrautox View Post
The fact is neither of us has any real data showing L10 lifetimes of an LS3 with a CC versus an LS3 without a CC. If you do have this data, and not some long synopsis based on what you've 'seen' and 'learned' over the years, please do share it. Until then, I'm just fine without one. Maybe, in 10 years when the car finally craps out, and the rebuild shows evidence it was caused by oil ingestion I'll be eating my words, but right now I'm good with what GM has originally designed.
An oil analysis will show you if you cared to see what is happening, but I guess you just want to interfere and have no desire to learn or share actual info. I have gone into pretty great detail and will post more pictures for anyone to see if they want, just ask. Your have the right to opinions, but facts and real life hold more credability in my book. And by all means, don't put one on any of your vehicles as its clear your fine with the way it came.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PAUL SS View Post
Okay I have a couple of questions now that I have installed my catch can.

Oil is obviously getting into the manifold, but why is it pooling on the floor of the manifold and does that mean it is not making it to the runners and into the combustion chamber?

What is the pool of oil doing during acceleration when there is a high vacuum in the manifold?

I do know that burnt oil will leave deposits on the valves and top of the piston which is not good.
The pooled oil is drawn into the combustion chamber and will cause the deposits. We like to clean all the pooled oil out at install time that you can and any small amounts of residue will not make a big differance. The important part is making sure the ingestion is stopped going forward.
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Old 01-19-2012, 03:24 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by asrautox View Post
The fact is neither of us has any real data showing L10 lifetimes of an LS3 with a CC versus an LS3 without a CC. If you do have this data, and not some long synopsis based on what you've 'seen' and 'learned' over the years, please do share it. Until then, I'm just fine without one. Maybe, in 10 years when the car finally craps out, and the rebuild shows evidence it was caused by oil ingestion I'll be eating my words, but right now I'm good with what GM has originally designed.
If you don't want a catch can then don't get one.
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Old 01-19-2012, 04:33 PM   #21
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These are typical intake valves the deposits are caused by oil and fuel impurities ingested and deposit on the hot valves. If you could keep yours like the one on the right then why wouldn't you? Oil through the intake will cause most of this. Even "Cheep" 93 octane gas can leave deposits if it has been "hydrogenated" (during the refinement process it reduces the cost and is seen dripping out the tailpipe.) The plug is ex-stream oil build up but even at low levels it will effect the effectiveness of spark performance. For the cost I'd opt on the side of preventive measures.

" Why should I buy insurance...I don't plan on getting in an accident? Then shouldn't the auto makers sell it with the car." DUMB!!!
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Old 01-19-2012, 04:43 PM   #22
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The non believers make me laugh. They spend more time defending that it doesnt work than actually taking the time to understand what it is. Its tragic!
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Old 01-19-2012, 04:45 PM   #23
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The non believers make me laugh. They spend more time defending that it doesnt work than actually taking the time to understand what it is. Its tragic!


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Old 01-19-2012, 05:22 PM   #24
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These are typical intake valves the deposits are caused by oil and fuel impurities ingested and deposit on the hot valves. If you could keep yours like the one on the right then why wouldn't you? Oil through the intake will cause most of this. Even "Cheep" 93 octane gas can leave deposits if it has been "hydrogenated" (during the refinement process it reduces the cost and is seen dripping out the tailpipe.) The plug is ex-stream oil build up but even at low levels it will effect the effectiveness of spark performance. For the cost I'd opt on the side of preventive measures.

" Why should I buy insurance...I don't plan on getting in an accident? Then shouldn't the auto makers sell it with the car." DUMB!!!
The pictures tell a thousand words. Excellent contribution to this thread.

There are always those that drink the cool-aide and believe "if the manufacturer did not do it this way it isn't needed".
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Old 01-19-2012, 05:36 PM   #25
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LOL, I think it's funny too when you guys just blindly listen to vendors telling you to buy their products without a shred of actual data other than theory and pictures of oil build up... I think it's best to just let this go, but I just love how you all are just eating up everything said as if it's gospel, but neglect the fact that there really is no actual hard data behind these theories..

"Hey guys, I'm super knowledgeable and have all this experience so you should buy my product because I'm telling you your engine will die without it. Wait you want actual data? You don't need data, I'm telling you this is the truth.."

Again, somebody just show me one piece of hard evidence that either the car will dyno higher with a catch can (no other mods) or that engine A with a CC lasted xxxxx miles longer than engine B without a CC. If someone can show me that, I'll put my money where my mouth is and buy an RX Catch Can for me and the OP (for pooping all over your simple thread).
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Old 01-19-2012, 06:01 PM   #26
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LOL, I think it's funny too when you guys just blindly listen to vendors telling you to buy their products without a shred of actual data other than theory and pictures of oil build up... I think it's best to just let this go, but I just love how you all are just eating up everything said as if it's gospel, but neglect the fact that there really is no actual hard data behind these theories..

"Hey guys, I'm super knowledgeable and have all this experience so you should buy my product because I'm telling you your engine will die without it. Wait you want actual data? You don't need data, I'm telling you this is the truth.."

Again, somebody just show me one piece of hard evidence that either the car will dyno higher with a catch can (no other mods) or that engine A with a CC lasted xxxxx miles longer than engine B without a CC. If someone can show me that, I'll put my money where my mouth is and buy an RX Catch Can for me and the OP (for pooping all over your simple thread).
It's equally funny reading blindly posted comments about how blind we all are.

When I installed my CAI, the first thing I noticed was the film of oil sitting inside the air plennum. There was actually a little oil on the throttle body inboard side. I pulled off the TB and cleaned it out as best as I can with a rag and there was quite a bit of oil and my car barely had 100km on it. Every gas fillup, I empty my catchcan and depending on whether I've been racing (auto-crossing) or not, there can be anywhere from 1/2 to 3/4 full can of old, black oil.

The fact is, EPA rules mandate that the crankcase ventilation systems not be vented to the atmosphere, otherwise we'd all be running valve cover breathers still. GM elected to just go the simple route and shove these oil ladened fumes back into the intake so that it will get burnt and captured by the emmissions control. Your engine is not going to blow up, but it will help to keep the combustion chambers nice and clean.

I also do not need a vendor to "tell me" the catchcan is a good idea, I made up my own mind and decided to put it in based on what I found. But, if you think that putting this oil back into your combustion chamber is a good thing, then that's your decision. Don't rag on us for doing what we think is best.
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Old 01-19-2012, 07:14 PM   #27
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Thats the thing the can does not increase your power so no there will be no higher dyno. The can is to prevent power LOSS IN THE LONG RUN!!! Does this make sense??? Or maybr it needs to be explained in another way, shape or form.
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Old 01-19-2012, 07:32 PM   #28
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I also do not need a vendor to "tell me" the catchcan is a good idea, I made up my own mind and decided to put it in based on what I found. But, if you think that putting this oil back into your combustion chamber is a good thing, then that's your decision. Don't rag on us for doing what we think is best.
Fair enough, and I apologize if I came off as ragging on those who looked at the risks and potential benefits, then came to their own conclusion. My point was don't just buy something because people tell you you need it (especially those selling the item). Do your own research and question the data (or lack of), then make your own decision..
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