2015 Challenger Hellcat 707 HP

[Runin11z]

Originally Posted by 07-SRT

who cares if they rot on the lots......I didn't buy my Camaro to brag about sales and I doubt the Viper owner cares either as he blows by my SS....

"Viper is a niche Product"

X2 since when have enthusiasts been concerned with sales numbers over performance as a form of bragging?? To me if they sell a ton of them it means that I'm more likely to see the car I own on every street corner...

Sometimes what is good for the manufacturer isn't necessarily a good thing for enthusiasts... Why do you think convertible hemi 'Cudas, Z16 chevelles, and Z11 impalas are so damn expensive now (and it wasn't the performance stats)....

[LOWDOWN]

Originally Posted by Runin11z

X2 since when have enthusiasts been concerned with sales numbers over performance as a form of bragging?? To me if they sell a ton of them it means that I'm more likely to see the car I own on every street corner...

How long can the Viper survive when outrun by a 1/2 price family member? How long will it survive as a few-100-build car? Sales number predict future...or the lack, thereof...

Sometimes what is good for the manufacturer isn't necessarily a good thing for enthusiasts...

Really? Without volume, the special interest models do NOT get built. Those specials are developed from PROFITS. Otherwise, the grapes wither on the vine...

Why do you think convertible hemi 'Cudas, Z16 chevelles, and Z11 impalas are so damn expensive now (and it wasn't the performance stats)....

Almost all Hemi Cuda convertibles were ordered as SS/EA drag cars. All 20-some over 2 model years...

1965 Z16 Chevelles were rushed to market and all were built ONE WAY...no posi, power windows, vinyl tops (only option), 4-speed only...ALL 201 of them. But their reception encouraged Chev to expand the program, but build a much more basic car with LOTS of profit-making options...

And '63 Z11 Impalas, all 57 of them, were built AND sold for one reason only: to qualify for NHRA A/FX competition (mandated by NHRA: minimum build of 50).

So, in fact, you mention two cars built expressly for racing, and one (the Z16) which pretty much avoided the track (most of those were sold to "GM insiders", and Joie Chitwood was an "insider").

[LOWDOWN]

Speaking of rare, I personally handled the sale of a '95 Firebird Formula 1LE (most people aren't aware the package was available on a '95 Firebird).

Do a search and see how many of those were built...

http://www.z28.com/threads/what-is-1le.18675/

[LOWDOWN]

Re: Hemi Cuda convertibles - one of my all-time favorite-looking Super Stocks, the Fink Bros. from OH...

[Runin11z]

Originally Posted by LOWDOWN

How long can the Viper survive when outrun by a 1/2 price family member? How long will it survive as a few-100-build car? Sales number predict future...or the lack, thereof...

I said it a long time back in this thread that FCA is showing the direction they're going by stuffing 707hp into a Challenger... It was only a matter of time before the Viper would see a substantial HP increase...

Really? Without volume, the special interest models do NOT get built. Those specials are developed from PROFITS. Otherwise, the grapes wither on the vine...

I understand the way it works but not so much in the form of people on a forum bragging that their cars are the top seller... I would think that all the profit made on the 5th gen would have made way for a really unique and "special" ZL1...


Almost all Hemi Cuda convertibles were ordered as SS/EA drag cars. All 20-some over 2 model years...

This may be very well true but it just goes to show where the heritage is with muscle cars and that's on the strip, and out of those 20 how many actually participated in super stock??

1965 Z16 Chevelles were rushed to market and all were built ONE WAY...no posi, power windows, vinyl tops, 4-speed only...ALL 201 of them. But their reception encouraged Chev to expand the program, but build a much more basic car with LOTS of profit-making options...

Fully optioned out as a luxury car, I know but it was not popularly known by the public and that's why there are so many "special muscle cars" from that era... For instance the 9560, not many "average joe's" could even afford one back then and it was the dealers influence not Chevy's to produce such a car... Maybe because they were passionate about the Camaro and not so much about the bottom dollar when it came to profit on these special cars...

And '63 Z11 Impalas, all 57 of them, were built AND sold for one reason only: to qualify for NHRA A/FX competition (mandated by NHRA: minimum build of 50).

Trust me I know what the aluminum sheet metal car was made for...

So, in fact, you mention two cars built expressly for racing, and one (the Z16) which pretty much avoided the track (most of those were sold to "GM insiders", and Joie Chitwood was an "insider").

They might not be mentioned as to what they were sold for but they weren't barn burners from the factory, just like the Z/28, it wasn't until teams got ahold of them and made them extremely competitive with the "traco racing 302s" and fully gutted interiors...

[Runin11z]

And btw I appreciate your knowledge about these car we all love and drool over... I think there is a part of me that wants the Camaro to be as "special" as it was back then... It makes me kind of upset when Welburn blabs about lineage and heritage when the ZL1 is as of now a GT car...

I'm not very old and wasn't around for the first HP wars, but I've come to be fortunate enough to own quite a few GM muscle cars, for instance a '69 L78 Camaro and a few others...

[Runin11z]

Originally Posted by LOWDOWN

Speaking of rare, I personally handled the sale of a '95 Firebird Formula 1LE (most people aren't aware the package was available on a '95 Firebird).

Do a search and see how many of those were built...

http://www.z28.com/threads/what-is-1le.18675/

This is what I mean by rare and that's the public wasn't fully aware of said option and even if they were, not many were willing to pony up...

[Runin11z]

Originally Posted by LOWDOWN

Re: Hemi Cuda convertibles - one of my all-time favorite-looking Super Stocks, the Fink Bros. from OH...

One word badass...

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by MEDISIN

Oh good, an even more expensive Viper to rot on lots.

"Dodge sold 46 Vipers in July, reaching 400 units for the year. GM probably sold that many Corvettes in the first week of the month"
http://www.torquenews.com/106/corvet...uly-2014-sales

Looks like Chevy is one upped again. While you love to boast about Corvette/Camaro sales how many ZR1s were sold in the most recent production year? What was the % of the overall sales my guess 1%?

Dodge doesn't make an economy Viper, the sales comparison should be the ZR1. Similar price, similar performance.

Also noticed this 1/4 mile pass for the Challenger 126-mph.
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...at-test-review

[rayzazoo]

Not bad for 5,387 HP in one picture of American muscle.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by newmoon

Looks like Chevy is one upped again. While you love to boast about Corvette/Camaro sales how many ZR1s were sold in the most recent production year? What was the % of the overall sales my guess 1%?

Dodge doesn't make an economy Viper, the sales comparison should be the ZR1. Similar price, similar performance.

Also noticed this 1/4 mile pass for the Challenger 126-mph.
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...at-test-review

and I think that is Viper's problem. they need to make a "base" model if they want it to be successful like Corvette

[Hell Cat 1]

Originally Posted by LOWDOWN

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you show up here last night waving the "magazines are full of misinformation" flag? Wasn't that you?

And then, to rectify this wrong, you proceeded to teach folks what the Best Buy Challenger was? Except, what you were selling for $40 or less was an unbuildable car? Wasn't that ALL you?

Oh, yeah, and then you wanted someone to pay to see your time slip, a slip you may have found blown against a fence on the spectator side of the track? Wasn't that you, too? Shouldering your way to the front of the crowd so you could share WHAT new insight? Nothing, without a dash of misinformation?

Thought so. Tell your handlers in Auburn Hills "the jig is up!" And re-read Joe's treatise...

The post was about What I thought was the best buy not what you thought and the rest of the post were the facts.

[MEDISIN]

Originally Posted by 07-SRT

who cares if they rot on the lots......I didn't buy my Camaro to brag about sales and I doubt the Viper owner cares either as he blows by my SS....

"Viper is a niche Product"

Sales are a strong indicator of a successful product. Shuttering your factory because inventory is stacking up on dealer lots is not. Viper sales are -63% YOY and last year (the launch year) was a terrible year for Viper sales. Corvette sales are +219% YOY. By comparison, in this price range, Nissan and Audi sold twice as many GT-R's and R8's respectively last month as Dodge sold Vipers.

When the base model costs $102,845 it had better blow by your SS. But when is the last time a new Viper pulled up next to you on the street? I have seen ONE in the wild since the new generation hit the streets.

Originally Posted by Hell Cat 1

The 2015 Viper got rave reviews by I believe Motor Trend. Lets see how many sell by the end of the year. You also need to note that corvettes come in many flavors from around $56,000 to over $71,000. If you want magnetic suspension on the corvette it cost you $1,995 dollars ect. So comparing overall corvette sales to the viper is deceiving.

I am GRATEFUL the Viper exists - it is a raw American sports car without question. The problem is it costs waaaaay too much for its performance and overall packaging. IMO the Viper needs a base model priced closer to the Corvette ($6X,XXX or so).

Originally Posted by Hell Cat 1

There is no $56,000 Viper and the $56,000 Corvette will not come close to Viper performance.

Not close? More like too close for comfort.

Edmunds.com
Horsepower: Corvette: 460hp; Viper 640hp
Acceleration: Corvette: 12.39 @ 113.7; Viper: 11.72 @ 124.1
Braking: Corvette: 99ft; Viper: 110ft
Slolam: Corvette: 73.5mph; Viper: 72.0mph
Skid Pad: Corvette: 1.05g; Viper: 0.98g
Road Course: Corvette: 84.55 sec; Viper: 83.94 sec
Price: Corvette: $69,675; Viper: $101,990

Other than the straight-line horsepower advantage, the new Viper falls flat on its face. There is no reason a track-oriented car should be out-braked and out-handled by a car costing $30,000 less. Only six-tenths of a second faster around a road course for $30,000 more? That is embarrassing and the reason Viper sales are so dismal.

With the new Z06 announced, no one is willing to commit to the Viper after seeing what the base model C7 did to it.

Originally Posted by rocket403

Nice engine for the Vette but unless GM does change policy this engine will not see the Camaro to bad, the Viper and Vette match up will be a good one.

What policy is that? Corvette had the LS3, Camaro had the LS3, Corvette had the LS7, Camaro had the LS7, Cadillac had the LSA, Camaro had the LSA.

The Viper and Vette matchup was disappointing...for Dodge. The then new 2013 Viper GTS aimed squarely at the outgoing ZR1 with it's 5y/o drivetrain was STILL 2 SECONDS SLOWER around Laguna Seca, while costing $15,000 more. With the Z06 due to hit the streets in Q1 2015, and Dodge only offering 5hp bump for 2015, it is going to be ugly.

Originally Posted by Hell Cat 1

the Viper is faster that the Vett no matter what model you get and the challenger hell cat is to.

Except when it isn't.

MotorTrend Laguna Lap:
2013 Viper GTS: 1:35.8
2013 Corvette ZR1: 1:33.7

Lightning Lap @ VIR
2013 ZL1: 2:57.5
2013 Hellcat: nolo contendere
2014 Hellcat: nolo contendere
2015 Hellcat: ????

Originally Posted by Hell Cat 1

Let's revisit the Ford versus Dodge comparison once we get our hands on the row-your-own Hellcat.

I think Dodge is scared to death of the Mancat running high 11's / low 12's in the hands of reviewers. They are only making the Autocat available which is guaranteed to be the faster straight-line version and even its reviews have been underwhelming to date. Both the auto and manual versions of the ZL1 were available when the car launched and yet EVERY reviewer received the manual version, knowing full well the A6 would be quicker.

Originally Posted by Hell Cat 1

Now a word about trap speeds. 125 mph is insane. Here's some comparative data for you. The 991 Porsche 911 Turbo S can hammer home the quarter mile in just 10.9 seconds (on Pirelli P Zeros, coincidently) but its trap speed is only 123.7 mph. The quicker time is due to better traction at launch (thanks, AWD!) but the Dodge -- which costs a third the entry price of the porker, about $60K versus $180K -- is going faster at the end of 1320 feet. And since stoplight-to-stoplight racing is never GPS-tracked ... You get my point. Look at the 2014 Nissan GT-R Track Edition. That flavor of Godzilla does the quarter in 11.0 seconds flat, but is "only" trapping at 125.1 mph. OK, so the Hellcat's barely faster, but here's the point -- it's faster. Here is the link to the Motor Trend article you were referring to. FASTER THAN A GTR TRACK EDITION WOW.
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...at_first_test/

125mph is impressive for a $60,000 car. It is even more impressive for a $55,000 car.

GT500
Car&Driver: 0-60, 3.5sec; 1/4mile 11.8 @ 125mph; 3891lbs
MotorTrend: 0-60, 3.8sec; 1/4mile 11.6 @ 125.7mph; 3871lbs
Motorweek: 0-60, 3.5sec, 1/4mile 11.7 @ 126.0mph
Edmunds: 0-60, 3.9sec, 1/4mile 12.1 @ 120.6mph; 3870lbs
Road&Track: 0-60, 3.5sec, 1/4mile 11.7 @ 128.1mph

Originally Posted by newmoon

Looks like Chevy is one upped again. While you love to boast about Corvette/Camaro sales how many ZR1s were sold in the most recent production year? What was the % of the overall sales my guess 1%?

Dodge doesn't make an economy Viper, the sales comparison should be the ZR1. Similar price, similar performance.

One upped? In what way? The 2015 C7 Z06 has more power (and will be unquestionably faster) than the 2015 Viper with it's 5hp bump. The C6 ZR1, at the end of a 5 year run, still slaughtered the all new 2013 Viper GTS around Laguna Seca by 2 seconds. Chevrolet offers an affordable sports car that punches will above its weight class. Dodge has nothing to compete with it for less than six-figures.

Originally Posted by newmoon

Also noticed this 1/4 mile pass for the Challenger 126-mph.
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...at-test-review

Another 11.7?? I thought the Autocat was supposed to be quick?

[SpeedIsLife]

Originally Posted by MEDISIN

Sales are a strong indicator of a successful product. Shuttering your factory because inventory is stacking up on dealer lots is not. Viper sales are -63% YOY and last year (the launch year) was a terrible year for Viper sales. Corvette sales are +219% YOY. By comparison, in this price range, Nissan and Audi sold twice as many GT-R's and R8's respectively last month as Dodge sold Vipers.

When the base model costs $102,845 it had better blow by your SS. But when is the last time a new Viper pulled up next to you on the street? I have seen ONE in the wild since the new generation hit the streets.



I am GRATEFUL the Viper exists - it is a raw American sports car without question. The problem is it costs waaaaay too much for its performance and overall packaging. IMO the Viper needs a base model priced closer to the Corvette ($6X,XXX or so).



Not close? More like too close for comfort.

Edmunds.com
Horsepower: Corvette: 460hp; Viper 640hp
Acceleration: Corvette: 12.39 @ 113.7; Viper: 11.72 @ 124.1
Braking: Corvette: 99ft; Viper: 110ft
Slolam: Corvette: 73.5mph; Viper: 72.0mph
Skid Pad: Corvette: 1.05g; Viper: 0.98g
Road Course: Corvette: 84.55 sec; Viper: 83.94 sec
Price: Corvette: $69,675; Viper: $101,990

Other than the straight-line horsepower advantage, the new Viper falls flat on its face. There is no reason a track-oriented car should be out-braked and out-handled by a car costing $30,000 less. Only six-tenths of a second faster around a road course for $30,000 more? That is embarrassing and the reason Viper sales are so dismal.

With the new Z06 announced, no one is willing to commit to the Viper after seeing what the base model C7 did to it.



What policy is that? Corvette had the LS3, Camaro had the LS3, Corvette had the LS7, Camaro had the LS7, Cadillac had the LSA, Camaro had the LSA.

The Viper and Vette matchup was disappointing...for Dodge. The then new 2013 Viper GTS aimed squarely at the outgoing ZR1 with it's 5y/o drivetrain was STILL 2 SECONDS SLOWER around Laguna Seca, while costing $15,000 more. With the Z06 due to hit the streets in Q1 2015, and Dodge only offering 5hp bump for 2015, it is going to be ugly.



Except when it isn't.

MotorTrend Laguna Lap:
2013 Viper GTS: 1:35.8
2013 Corvette ZR1: 1:33.7

Lightning Lap @ VIR
2013 ZL1: 2:57.5
2013 Hellcat: nolo contendere
2014 Hellcat: nolo contendere
2015 Hellcat: ????



I think Dodge is scared to death of the Mancat running high 11's / low 12's in the hands of reviewers. They are only making the Autocat available which is guaranteed to be the faster straight-line version and even its reviews have been underwhelming to date. Both the auto and manual versions of the ZL1 were available when the car launched and yet EVERY reviewer received the manual version, knowing full well the A6 would be quicker.



125mph is impressive for a $60,000 car. It is even more impressive for a $55,000 car.

GT500
Car&Driver: 0-60, 3.5sec; 1/4mile 11.8 @ 125mph; 3891lbs
MotorTrend: 0-60, 3.8sec; 1/4mile 11.6 @ 125.7mph; 3871lbs
Motorweek: 0-60, 3.5sec, 1/4mile 11.7 @ 126.0mph
Edmunds: 0-60, 3.9sec, 1/4mile 12.1 @ 120.6mph; 3870lbs
Road&Track: 0-60, 3.5sec, 1/4mile 11.7 @ 128.1mph



One upped? In what way? The 2015 C7 Z06 has more power (and will be unquestionably faster) than the 2015 Viper with it's 5hp bump. The C6 ZR1, at the end of a 5 year run, still slaughtered the all new 2013 Viper GTS around Laguna Seca by 2 seconds. Chevrolet offers an affordable sports car that punches will above its weight class. Dodge has nothing to compete with it for less than six-figures.



Another 11.7?? I thought the Autocat was supposed to be quick?

Trap speed is the best indication of potential. ET is dictated by available traction.

Assuming a dead hook a trap of 126 would produce a roughly 11.3 ET in a 4500 lb car