Kenne Bell vs Whipple

[JANNETTYRACING]

Originally Posted by Adam@ST

ST Motorsports TESTS Kenne Bell vs Whipple: IAT, HP, BOOST, HOOD UP VS HOOD CLOSED,KENNE BELL VS WHIPPLE. THE REAL FACTS. THE SAME CAR, SAME DYNO, TUNE. 9PSi KITS as they are shipped.

Jannetty Racing started a big discussion claiming Kenne Bell Superchargers EOR (End Of Run) IAT’s were significantly higher than Whipple by 43* ( KB 142*- Whipple 99* = 43*). My test results were KB149*- Whipple 138* = 11*. Thats quite a difference between W 138 and W 99 originally posted by Jannety.Maybe the IAT sensor was in the MAF instead of the manifold or? Intake Air Temprise on the Whipple Was 9*, the Kenne Bell was 18* NOT 56* as claimed.
No bias or variables here, don’t know or care why his numbers didn’t match mine. I install and service Kenne Bell, Whipple,Magnuson and Edlebrock,Vortech,Paxton,andturbos. Many of my customers are Kenne Bell charged. Like everyone on this site, they were curious and wanted the real facts. Even Jannetty asked for an explanation.
Well, here it is...It was expensive and most of all TIME CONSUMING ,but I did the KB vs Whipple comparison. My tests were very close to the comparisons run by Kenne Bell so I feel confident of the data. I did everything possible to be fair and accurate. Bottom line, Whipple did run cooler than the Kenne Bell, but marginally by a best of 13*.
Anyone can quote numbers or run one test,most of all defend their purchase. I purchased and used an off the shelf Kenne Bell and Whipple kit @ 9 psi . I tested them on the SAME car, dyno, equipment, sensors. No variables that’s the best I can do...
STM, JANNETTY, KB vs Whipple IAT DYNO TESTS
REF TEST HOOD postion dyno run *data AMB START END DIFF in*
1 *JANNETTY Whipple UP 63* 90* 99* +9
2 *JANNETTY KB UP 72* 86* 142* +56
3 **STM Whipple UP 95* 124* 133* +9
4 **STM Whipple UP 97* 129* 138* +9
5 **STM KB UP/CL 81* 104* 126* +22
Note Hood up or down...same results
6 **STM KB UP/CL 96* 131* 149* +18
Note Hood up or down...same resluts

Just to add for data purposes, I pulled these numbers off Kenne Bells website:
KENNE BELL POSTED TEST run #1 UP/CL amb*88 start*131 end*147 diff*+16
KENNE BELL POSTED TEST run #2 UP/CL amb*91 start*131 end*151 diff*+20
Again,Varibles...
*NONE here.
**Same car, dyno, boost, tune (a/f and timing)
***Note lower “start” temp results in lower “end” temps so that’s important to keep in mind open vs closed hood .
My stance with some accurate testing ? Its not all about IAT’s. Whipple is better “hood up” (Test 4) vs KB “hood closed” (Test 6) by 11* which is no big deal. I'd be more concerned about the Whipple IAT's with the closed.... +11-15* IAT- AND the loss of oxygen and HP.( See Dyno Test)KB posted 12 “Variables that affectcomparison testing.” Good info. I looked closely at all 12 variables when testing and learned a lot about Whipples kit, and reinforced my current knowledge on Twin Screw systems.

HOOD UP - HOOD CLOSED Tests.
I tested hood open and closed. Very good data that no one has published before. Last time I was on the freeway , we all drive around with our hoods closed. I didnt see anyone driving around with the hood open and a huge fan blowing cool air into the intake tract and the engine bay
as on dyno. THAT skews the tests big time and just isnt real world. There is sound reasoning and gains to be had with the KB Mammoth inlet kit and location of the filter under the front valance. KB hood open vs closed HP is the same. Has to be if 100% outside air.Hot engine bay air or a mix contains less oxygen, making less HP.
Closing the hood on the Whipple dropped a 55HP (564- 509)all because of temp increase thats HUGE . Boost dropped .8 psi-1.0 psi. No brainer, Whipple hole cut in restrictive stock air box does improve air flow 1203 vs 1004 CFM but the hot under-hood air killed HP and boost. Also heats intercooler water,needs more octane, richens AFR, higher exhaust and engine coolant temps alone are not the only factor in determining HP.

IAT/BOOST WHIPPLE 9PSI, FILTER HOLE cut as per instructions, HOOD OPEN VS CLOSED
HOOD OPEN Boost 8.8 PSI..START IAT-> 109* End IAT-> 118* RWHP-> 564 .. IAT +9*
HOOD CLOSED Boost 7.9 psi..Start IAT-> 135* end IAT-> 142* RWHP-> 509 .. IAT +7*
-55 rwhp thats a big loss!!

Hood OPEN vs CLOSED Degree difference.. +24* which will get worse with traffic. I recommend you look at all supercharger kit data with hood closed for real world IAT and boost data. Everyone does it (including me) but open hood is not the way to dyno test, tune or temp test.. Interesting IAT, Boost, HP comparison. IAT’s up 23% when hood is shut. Temps increased with each run. Boost drops .8 psi, that’s losing HP and the dyno shows it. It’s all related isn’t it? More good reasons for only cool air for the supercharger and no hot under-hood air. I think Jannetty offers a better cold air kit for the Whipple instead of the stock air box. Definitely worth the money or you will have higher IAT’s, less boost and HP. Another thing I want to add. I used the supplied tune with the Whipple kit, and it flat out pinged like a SOB on 91 pump gas. I made 2 pulls and stopped for fear the engine would rattle apart. So on top of looking at a CAI, I'd also push for a custom tune or use octane adder.

CAI kits...
Plenty of mis-information on CAI kits and inlets systems. May as well comment on CAI kits. I'd encourage my customers to dump the stock Camaro box. Like a 25-55HP restriction and more at higher HP or boost levels. Whipple instructions claim the “hot air hole” is 25HP and 1.2 psi boost at 70* but with hood up. We recommend buying or fabricating a kit with a external filter for cooler air and max air flow/HP. Then it needs a custom tune and a Boost A Pump. Your choice. Consider these added costs when selecting a kit. All kits make “good HP.” My customers seem
to want the most from their kits up front and be done with upgrades and new tunes.
That means KB or Whipple E-force, etc will benefit with a good CAI kit. Its proven the CAI is worth upwards of 30-50 rwhp depending on combo, and thats a huge gap to close HP wise and $ wise. Lets not forget though,
the Kenne Bell system comes with a HUGE 4.5 CAI in the kit.

CRUISING IAT's
I think all the current 6.2 kits offer an excellent intercooler/ heat exchanger/ pump package. On a100* day, the KB, Whipple (closed air box), Maggie and Edlebrock all seem to drive around at 25-30* above ambient at 65 mph. Idling brings under-hood temps to 170*+. So don’t make your SC decision on some random IAT test numbers. Naturally aspirated orsupercharged, your vehicles performance is directly
proportional to temperature (IAT’s) from ambient and other sources.
A couple of more things to consider:
- Heat transfer (cooling) best when there is big spread in air and water temps.
- Niether KB nor Whipple Can cool intercooler water to ambient. Maybe within 20* at best.
- Every 10* temp rise kills 1% HP minimum. Don’t forget the spark retard from higher temps.
- Don’t freak over 10* IAT. HP is what you are paying for. Not data logged open hood dyno test.
Why do you think Camaro engineers went through all the trouble to feed 100% cool air to their filter box? Same concept used since the 60's.

I hope the data was helpful to the site and STM customers
Adam Montague
ST Motorsports

I have some dyno sheets and few pictures to post up as well.

FOR SALE
I’m done with the testing. My KB and Whipple kits are for sale. Complete like new. About 200 miles and about 50 dyno pulls on each. Whipple $5000, KB $5000, STM install $1200. Full warranty, can ship or install for an additional $1650.00 with dyno time,or $1200.00 using supplied can tunes. The kits are sold as KIT FORM.

Thanks for all your Hard work Adam.

I actually didn't start the thread I chimed in after someone else had pointed it out and other shops also chimed in reporting the Same Results we see almost to the letter.

I first chimed it at Post 34

I have the Data and PLEASE No offense to anyone as I have no dog in this fight.

2 Very Similar Builds, 2010 LS3 Camaros, same cam, headers, injectors, Fuel system, Clutch, one Whipple one KB

Whipple 10 PSI at top, IAT starts at 32 C and over 8.5 second WOT pull on the dyno rises to 37 C.

Same set up with KB 10 psi at top, IAT start at 29 C and over 8.5 second pull on dyno rise to 61 C.

Whipple made 682 RWHP KB made 670 RWHP and I was a little more aggressive with the tune on the KB.

Ted.

I can appreciate Your efforts but I didn't just pull these numbers out of the air they are taken directly from HPtuner logs and I responded to IAT locations as well, Same Same

I compared 3 KB equipped cars and 3 Whipple cars and the Numbers Keep repeating, so I don't know What else to say.

I am in no way trying to hurt anyone as I have said time and time again.

I have said everything I have to say all you need to do is go back and re read my posts.

Peace, Ted.

[HumanWiki]

Originally Posted by Adam@ST

FOR SALE
I’m done with the testing. My KB and Whipple kits are for sale. Complete like new. About 200 miles and about 50 dyno pulls on each. Whipple $5000, KB $5000, STM install $1200. Full warranty, can ship or install for an additional $1650.00 with dyno time,or $1200.00 using supplied can tunes. The kits are sold as KIT FORM.

Wow... 2 people are getting a very nice deal.

[radz28]

Thanks, to both of you, for your hard work.

[Granatelli]

Just to fan the flame a bit more, Any manufactures turbo, single or twin kit, would have been in the 630 to 670+ range with 9psi. I won't labor the issue but all this talk over IAT and discharge air temps - Hood open v. Hood closed and so many people are concerned about this and that, bottom mount twins would kill these numbers.

If it is just a PD blower war and who does best then I get it but the first post talked about looking for lower discharge temps and what is the best way to get there and make power without dragging the motor down etc...

I agree the test seems very well thought out.....

[mikepage0007]

Originally Posted by Granatelli

Just to fan the flame a bit more, Any manufactures turbo, single or twin kit, would have been in the 630 to 670+ range with 9psi. I won't labor the issue but all this talk over IAT and discharge air temps - Hood open v. Hood closed and so many people are concerned about this and that, bottom mount twins would kill these numbers.

If it is just a PD blower war and who does best then I get it but the first post talked about looking for lower discharge temps and what is the best way to get there and make power without dragging the motor down etc...

I agree the test seems very well thought out.....

700rwhp @ 9psi, with kb...so much for fan flaming..but dialed it down to a safe 660rwhp.. on a stock bottom end

[G200 Pilot]

Thanks Adam for your excellent work. My 2.8 LC KB is also for sale. I believe Mike Paige's will be for sale

[zebra]

well at least y'all entertain the idea of PD blowers. over on my car's huge forum, when we've had any questions/debates over twin screws & roots, it's instantly trolled by all the centrifugal-loving lemmings

[Turbo99]

Originally Posted by Granatelli

Just to fan the flame a bit more, Any manufactures turbo, single or twin kit, would have been in the 630 to 670+ range with 9psi. I won't labor the issue but all this talk over IAT and discharge air temps - Hood open v. Hood closed and so many people are concerned about this and that, bottom mount twins would kill these numbers.

If it is just a PD blower war and who does best then I get it but the first post talked about looking for lower discharge temps and what is the best way to get there and make power without dragging the motor down etc...

I agree the test seems very well thought out.....

I am at 600 with my Maggie @ 7psi so go nine and it be right where your saying.

[SpeedPro]

My first post on the Camaro forum but I have been closely following the IAT discussion for months now. Big thanks to Adam at ST Motorsports for all the testing! As an old drag racer from the 70's and 80's I know all about testing and how much work it really is! Thank for enlightening all of us because you really helped me to finally make my decision for a KB 2.8. No 2.3 was ever considered. My reasoning for what its worth, if Im shelling out $35. per horsepower for a kit, why give up 25-50hp or $825-$1750? KB doesnt need a whole new inlet and custom tune so I save that cost of both or headers to match the KB. KB overall IAT's are actually lower when considering cooler KB inlet air like you said, "Its proven the CAI is worth upwards of 30-50 rwhp depending on combo, and thats a huge gap to close HP wise and $ wise. Lets not forget though, the Kenne Bell system comes with a HUGE 4.5 CAI in the kit."
so thanks again STM for your very comprehensive testing!
"Closing the hood on the Whipple dropped a 55HP (564- 509)all because of temp increase thats HUGE . Boost dropped .8 psi-1.0 psi. No brainer, Whipple hole cut in restrictive stock air box does improve air flow 1203 vs 1004 CFM but the hot under-hood air killed HP and boost. Also heats intercooler water,needs more octane, richens AFR, higher exhaust and engine coolant temps alone are not the only factor in determining HP."
I like the KB website info and their kits. No drivability IAT issues and BIG Power compaired to Mag and E kits.
As far as asethetics, the KB's billet design looks so much better and, it looks like a real supercharger IMO. -Al

[HufferSS]

Lucky for you there are several KB owners that are upgrading to the Whipple so you can get a great deal on one right now.

1st post.....an I love KB post......you're suspect I tell ya...suspect.

[mcdoogle6969]

Originally Posted by SpeedPro

My first post on the Camaro forum but I have been closely following the IAT discussion for months now. Big thanks to Adam at ST Motorsports for all the testing! As an old drag racer from the 70's and 80's I know all about testing and how much work it really is! Thank for enlightening all of us because you really helped me to finally make my decision for a KB 2.8. No 2.3 was ever considered. My reasoning for what its worth, if Im shelling out $35. per horsepower for a kit, why give up 25-50hp or $825-$1750? KB doesnt need a whole new inlet and custom tune so I save that cost of both or headers to match the KB. KB overall IAT's are actually lower when considering cooler KB inlet air like you said, "Its proven the CAI is worth upwards of 30-50 rwhp depending on combo, and thats a huge gap to close HP wise and $ wise. Lets not forget though, the Kenne Bell system comes with a HUGE 4.5 CAI in the kit."
so thanks again STM for your very comprehensive testing!
"Closing the hood on the Whipple dropped a 55HP (564- 509)all because of temp increase thats HUGE . Boost dropped .8 psi-1.0 psi. No brainer, Whipple hole cut in restrictive stock air box does improve air flow 1203 vs 1004 CFM but the hot under-hood air killed HP and boost. Also heats intercooler water,needs more octane, richens AFR, higher exhaust and engine coolant temps alone are not the only factor in determining HP."
I like the KB website info and their kits. No drivability IAT issues and BIG Power compaired to Mag and E kits.
As far as asethetics, the KB's billet design looks so much better and, it looks like a real supercharger IMO. -Al

Damn straight.

[rjs]

thanks adam for the detailed test. liked my KB 2.8 so much i upgraded to a 3.6. I have owned a grand national for many yrs played with lightnings and cobras. everyone has heat soak issues. Cool weather is a blower cars friend. I live in louisiana and play when its cooler. good reading in this thread wiht many respected names. took a whole hour to read through this

[94guy]

rjs when will you have the 3.6 on?

[Adam@ST]

Here are some pictures I wasnt able to post yesterday. These are the 2 kits on the same car. I have the pictures showing the sensors used to find under hood temps, as well as temps in the lower front bumper area. Another is the dyno run hood up vs hood closed. A picture of the cut out air box (yikes!!!). Cant believe I did this , ruined a good stock air box.
Also there is a pic of the blowers side by side ...hmmm look at the inlets...1 90* turn each .. Dont see any gains here.
Another thing no -one has talked about. The air filter used in the Kenne Bell kit also far superior in flow compared to the filters offered in the others kits stock/aftermarket.
I have some info on the CAI and filter stuff at the shop.Ill post on the Monday. Thanks Adam