VVT cams dominating LS3 conversion cams at the track...You be the judge. - Page 3 - Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums

speedmon · 10-27-2012, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhino79

Ok. The afm lifters are weak. That has nothing to do with the vvt though. Once ls3 lifters are installed, you're set. My valve train consists of the mast ss cam, stock rockers, stock ls3 lifters, stock pushrods, comp beehives, and comps phaser limiter. Rev limit is at 7200, and I shift at 6900-7000. Durability has not been an issue and I drive my car daily. I drove it to the track too. I found 20 rwhp with just cam phaser changes on the dyno.

You have a phaser limiter? Does that connect to the warp drive? (LOL)

Do you think you'd gain more power with some ported heads?

litle88 · 10-27-2012, 03:40 PM

Did you not know that the vvt lobes are waaaay less aggressive than cams for Ls3's? Like the night fury or an Lg cam.

Here's another reason your "myths" are just not computing and your basing it on assumption ( the motha of all Fu$& ups) the Ls7's have a 3/8 pushrod tapered to 5/16 ends so they are nowhere near the same. That's why they turn 7k + so please stop spreading all of this myth busting thing before you start busting other members motors. Bust yours of you want to because you can fix it since you do it for a living my friend. Lots in here don't.

speedmon · 10-27-2012, 04:48 PM

Ya know I've seen LS motors with primarily stock components do some amazing things without metal part failure.
Well documented are
-5.3L JY engines with Zr1 cams and turbos making 700hp
-LQ9 turbo engines doing 900hp with just a cam.
-GM tests (QAs) the LS and CT525s @6700 before shipping and those engines are warrantied for 2 years. Same pushrods as LS3s.

So when someone says they are spinning 7K with no failure, that's not really surprising.

The new C7 engine has VVT tech so obviously GM thinks that tech is worth evolving.

The LS7 engine is being discontinued which means GM is not supporting that evolution path.

People who innovate are often scoffed at and ridiculed for not following mainstream paradigm....but its that "pushing the envelope" that leads to new technology.

Steve Jobs was fired from Apple in the early 90's after a failed release of an older Ipad called the Newton. But was brought back after the company fell into a death spiral for nearly a decade.....they needed his innovation.

Galileo was imprisoned (for most of his life) cuz he told folks the earth was round and was not the center of the universe.

Innovation is good, seldom initially accepted, but success is always rewarded.

Rhino79 · 10-27-2012, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by litle88

Did you not know that the vvt lobes are waaaay less aggressive than cams for Ls3's? Like the night fury or an Lg cam.

Here's another reason your "myths" are just not computing and your basing it on assumption ( the motha of all Fu$& ups) the Ls7's have a 3/8 pushrod tapered to 5/16 ends so they are nowhere near the same. That's why they turn 7k + so please stop spreading all of this myth busting thing before you start busting other members motors. Bust yours of you want to because you can fix it since you do it for a living my friend. Lots in here don't.

Dude, all you obviously know is what you read on a forum. Let me know when you have some real world experience to offer folks rather than just hear say. If mine was gonna break, it would have by now....lol. Anything can happen when pushing an engine hard. No matter whether it factory or aftermarket parts. If the combo is right, it will live barring a mechanical defect. 12 years ago people like yourself were experiementing with ls1's and maxxing them out to prove they could. This is no different. You can throw the whole summit catalog at your car if you want to but it doesn't mean it will perform. Mine does.

So back to the original thread before all the negativity........VVT just offers more ability to have a broader powerband. Every LS conversion I have seen in person on an auto car with a 230's fixed cam fell off 200-400 before the vvt cams.

Rhino79 · 10-27-2012, 05:04 PM

Do you know mast motorsports ss vvt cam lobe ramp rate? I sure in the hell don't so I can't say its more or less aggressive. I can say to make 470 rwhp through an unlocked converter has to be somewhat aggressive. All I know is mast told me it was a 230/244 on a 111 lsa. .598/.607 I believe.

Pro Stock John · 10-27-2012, 05:11 PM

Little, Rhino here is trapping like 3-4 mph less than what your car is trapping with it's stroker, pretty stout eh? When you raced at Byron with some other folks I know you trapped 125 mph?

I don't get some of your posts sometimes to be honest, it's like just because someone else is doing well you have to jump in and add your 8 cents.

Back to topic, I have no clue how the VVT works and why you would have a higher hp peak, can explain it a bit more?

What size converter you doing now, 4000 or more?

Rhino79 · 10-27-2012, 05:20 PM

Going 4000 on the verter. I dont think the vvt grind "increased" my peak number I just think it gave me peak for a longer amount of time.

My power from about 5800 to 6000 all the way to 7000 is flat basically. It peaks at 6800 or so, but it is still over 460 rwhp when I stop the pull at 7200. Its one thing seeing the graph, but the feel of the flat torque/power curve is awesome.

Rhino79 · 10-27-2012, 05:22 PM

John, just having the ability to "degree" the cam on the fly allows the tuner to really make that powerband more robust over a wider area.

litle88 · 10-27-2012, 06:49 PM

I'm never bashing anyone and their builds, ever. I have given my number to various members here to help along the way with success, I have gone to others homes and others have come to mine to help wrench from headers to cams because I like it, it's fun and its my personality. I'm glad he's going fast with vvt tech. That's awesome but don't spread stuff like "no you don't need pushrods oe's are good (we both know they suck), oil pumps its a coin toss and if members are doing cam swaps why not "recommend" an upgrade to a melling? Why not "recommend" a C5r timing chain? We both know that there is going to be some poor soul searching and forum and coming up to this thread in the middle of a cam swap and think that his oe pushrods are ok, I'm just trying to save folks money and help them keep a long happy running motor.

I build my own projects, I don't buy them.

I have called mast and they told me they are not aggressive just somewhat more than stock. I too have an L99 project that I'm not sure which way to go.

Vvt is separate from AFM. You can keep vvt and delete AFM no problem.

mikeSS · 10-27-2012, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhino79

On the oil pump......why are the oil pump failures ALWAYS after a cam swap? Because of installer error probably. Why have I never had an oil pump fail? I do this for a living.

The stock timing chain is strong with proper engine balancing and cheap underdrives will prove that.
e.

i agree with that.

its so funny. i remember two threads just these last couple of weeks. guys started to have problems RIGHT after a cam install. in fact one guys pump failed on the first dyno run, to tune the dam car. the guy blamed it on a bad pump from GM, i mean come on. It fails right after he handles it. really? lol

I am not saying the melling is a bad idea. and it is probably a better pump. but i think some of the failures on stock pump are just BS.

VADER SS L99 · 10-27-2012, 09:13 PM

If more high end shops like ADM, Jannetty, Livernois ect.. adopt VVt and start using it you would see alot more VVT cams over the conversion but they dont support it. When and if my tuner feels confident in VVT and can tune it for great gains I still have my VVT hardware to put back in. Another thing is cam choice. I think there are a total of like 8 VVT cams on the market so that doesnt give us much choice. VVT companies are going to have to convience the vendors, installers and tuners that VVT is better and just as reliable otherwise it will stay the way it is. I think VVT could be great for us but if our builders don't trust it, install it, or tune it we have to go with what they do trust.

Rhino79 · 10-27-2012, 09:21 PM

It takes a while to properly tune a vvt combo, gm did well with the oe cam/calibration. But with an aftermarket cams, it can take a while. Its all about being a sponge, gotta soak up the info, learn and apply.

VADER SS L99 · 10-27-2012, 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhino79

It takes a while to properly tune a vvt combo, gm did well with the oe cam/calibration. But with an aftermarket cams, it can take a while. Its all about being a sponge, gotta soak up the info, learn and apply.

Bad Ass car BTW. I do hope you get into the 10's cam only. Maybe others would finally show the 5th gen a little respect.

Rhino79 · 10-27-2012, 09:35 PM

I will do it. 3.70s and ss4000 converter. Would like to have Chevy Hi-tech or some other late model mag. be there in the spring when I go for it. I have the mph now....just need the short time.

10-27-2012, 03:40 PM	#30
litle88 V8 Lounge member #2 Drives: 2001 Ws6 Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Burbank,IL Posts: 6,373	Did you not know that the vvt lobes are waaaay less aggressive than cams for Ls3's? Like the night fury or an Lg cam. Here's another reason your "myths" are just not computing and your basing it on assumption ( the motha of all Fu$& ups) the Ls7's have a 3/8 pushrod tapered to 5/16 ends so they are nowhere near the same. That's why they turn 7k + so please stop spreading all of this myth busting thing before you start busting other members motors. Bust yours of you want to because you can fix it since you do it for a living my friend. Lots in here don't. __________________ 2001 ws6, 40k miles, Ls3 416 stroker, short block built by PER the rest by me. LPE Ls3 heads milled to 12-1 comp, FAST 102, NW 102, kooks 2", dual DMH cutouts, Magnaflow C/B, BTR cam + springs. Full UMI suspension.

10-27-2012, 05:11 PM	#34
Pro Stock John Writer Drives: 2010 SS / 1967 Camaro Join Date: May 2009 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 7,216	Little, Rhino here is trapping like 3-4 mph less than what your car is trapping with it's stroker, pretty stout eh? When you raced at Byron with some other folks I know you trapped 125 mph? I don't get some of your posts sometimes to be honest, it's like just because someone else is doing well you have to jump in and add your 8 cents. Back to topic, I have no clue how the VVT works and why you would have a higher hp peak, can explain it a bit more? What size converter you doing now, 4000 or more? __________________ PROJECT HEAVY CHEVY Camaro Now: Mods for the Masses Part I \| Part II 13.15@106 1.95 \| 100% Stock 12.37@112 1.85 \| + Kooks Headers/Cats + 20" 555R + CAI + BW TB + UDP + Tune 12.06@113 1.70 \| + CD 3200 + 18" NT05R + RCR Intake + NE OTR + GPI Tune 11.84@115 1.59 \| + 3.91s + Race Star 17x7 Fronts 10.90@125 1.47 \| + GPI VVT Cam + BW Ported Heads + CD 3800

10-27-2012, 06:49 PM	#37
litle88 V8 Lounge member #2 Drives: 2001 Ws6 Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Burbank,IL Posts: 6,373	I'm never bashing anyone and their builds, ever. I have given my number to various members here to help along the way with success, I have gone to others homes and others have come to mine to help wrench from headers to cams because I like it, it's fun and its my personality. I'm glad he's going fast with vvt tech. That's awesome but don't spread stuff like "no you don't need pushrods oe's are good (we both know they suck), oil pumps its a coin toss and if members are doing cam swaps why not "recommend" an upgrade to a melling? Why not "recommend" a C5r timing chain? We both know that there is going to be some poor soul searching and forum and coming up to this thread in the middle of a cam swap and think that his oe pushrods are ok, I'm just trying to save folks money and help them keep a long happy running motor. I build my own projects, I don't buy them. I have called mast and they told me they are not aggressive just somewhat more than stock. I too have an L99 project that I'm not sure which way to go. Vvt is separate from AFM. You can keep vvt and delete AFM no problem. __________________ 2001 ws6, 40k miles, Ls3 416 stroker, short block built by PER the rest by me. LPE Ls3 heads milled to 12-1 comp, FAST 102, NW 102, kooks 2", dual DMH cutouts, Magnaflow C/B, BTR cam + springs. Full UMI suspension.

10-27-2012, 09:13 PM	#39
VADER SS L99 Drives: 2013 A6 GT 5.0 Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Edmond, OK Posts: 2,909	If more high end shops like ADM, Jannetty, Livernois ect.. adopt VVt and start using it you would see alot more VVT cams over the conversion but they dont support it. When and if my tuner feels confident in VVT and can tune it for great gains I still have my VVT hardware to put back in. Another thing is cam choice. I think there are a total of like 8 VVT cams on the market so that doesnt give us much choice. VVT companies are going to have to convience the vendors, installers and tuners that VVT is better and just as reliable otherwise it will stay the way it is. I think VVT could be great for us but if our builders don't trust it, install it, or tune it we have to go with what they do trust. __________________ BLK/BLK 1SS/RS Ordered 11-01-2009 Took delivery 12-22-2009. Heads/cam/converter/bolt ons. SOLD Feb 2015 to fund 6th gen LT1 SS with 8L90E.

10-27-2012, 04:48 PM	#31
speedmon Drives: C6 Z06 Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Orange, CA Posts: 572	Ya know I've seen LS motors with primarily stock components do some amazing things without metal part failure. Well documented are -5.3L JY engines with Zr1 cams and turbos making 700hp -LQ9 turbo engines doing 900hp with just a cam. -GM tests (QAs) the LS and CT525s @6700 before shipping and those engines are warrantied for 2 years. Same pushrods as LS3s. So when someone says they are spinning 7K with no failure, that's not really surprising. The new C7 engine has VVT tech so obviously GM thinks that tech is worth evolving. The LS7 engine is being discontinued which means GM is not supporting that evolution path. People who innovate are often scoffed at and ridiculed for not following mainstream paradigm....but its that "pushing the envelope" that leads to new technology. Steve Jobs was fired from Apple in the early 90's after a failed release of an older Ipad called the Newton. But was brought back after the company fell into a death spiral for nearly a decade.....they needed his innovation. Galileo was imprisoned (for most of his life) cuz he told folks the earth was round and was not the center of the universe. Innovation is good, seldom initially accepted, but success is always rewarded.

10-27-2012, 05:04 PM	#33
Rhino79 Drives: 2010 Camaro SS L99/Auto Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Cabot, AR Posts: 2,827 View My Garage	Do you know mast motorsports ss vvt cam lobe ramp rate? I sure in the hell don't so I can't say its more or less aggressive. I can say to make 470 rwhp through an unlocked converter has to be somewhat aggressive. All I know is mast told me it was a 230/244 on a 111 lsa. .598/.607 I believe.

10-27-2012, 05:20 PM	#35
Rhino79 Drives: 2010 Camaro SS L99/Auto Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Cabot, AR Posts: 2,827 View My Garage	Going 4000 on the verter. I dont think the vvt grind "increased" my peak number I just think it gave me peak for a longer amount of time. My power from about 5800 to 6000 all the way to 7000 is flat basically. It peaks at 6800 or so, but it is still over 460 rwhp when I stop the pull at 7200. Its one thing seeing the graph, but the feel of the flat torque/power curve is awesome.

10-27-2012, 05:22 PM	#36
Rhino79 Drives: 2010 Camaro SS L99/Auto Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Cabot, AR Posts: 2,827 View My Garage	John, just having the ability to "degree" the cam on the fly allows the tuner to really make that powerband more robust over a wider area.

10-27-2012, 09:21 PM	#40
Rhino79 Drives: 2010 Camaro SS L99/Auto Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Cabot, AR Posts: 2,827 View My Garage	It takes a while to properly tune a vvt combo, gm did well with the oe cam/calibration. But with an aftermarket cams, it can take a while. Its all about being a sponge, gotta soak up the info, learn and apply.

10-27-2012, 09:35 PM	#42
Rhino79 Drives: 2010 Camaro SS L99/Auto Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Cabot, AR Posts: 2,827 View My Garage	I will do it. 3.70s and ss4000 converter. Would like to have Chevy Hi-tech or some other late model mag. be there in the spring when I go for it. I have the mph now....just need the short time.