[Rodan]

Originally Posted by JD2018_ZL1

You have 3 days. Thats a lot of things you can download Plus its not vin specific. So you can search manuals for all cars GM.

I have 3 GM cars so when I do something I search around and download anything I can think of at the time

Downloadable as .pdf, or are you just screen shotting?

[ninsecgt]

I just had this suspension installed buy redline motorsport in pompano fl. on my 2017 zl1. bmr if you're listening you'd better not **** over these consumers or you will be hearing from my attorney. ofc r. booker Miami-dade police dept. follow the law and do what's right and you won't have any problems

[thescreensavers]

Originally Posted by Rodan

Downloadable as .pdf, or are you just screen shotting?

If you have chrome you can print as PDF.

[kwav8r]

Originally Posted by Stephen12ZL1

OK...I retract the adjective "spurious" because I didn't know your background. Are we OK with "a single post" vs my original post descriptor? You have to believe the bolt quality or original factory torque of the TTY fastener is to blame. Your "flaming" of BMR is a bit intense as bolts (even new ones) can fail. A 20yr seasoned machine shop/aviation person such as yourself should perfectly understand that BMR did nothing here to cause your bolt failure. Your post is "spurious" because it is a single instance of many factory bolts which have been retorqued without incident. Even you had a 3 out of 4 success rate with retorquing the factory bolts. Sample size dictates your incident is random and beyond explanation. Replacing the factory bolts is likely ideal, but your single failure shouldn't define the entire future installs of this kit. All of us have bad days including myself.

I think you'd be surprised how much you and I have in agreement. But, the word spurious implies that I'm making this up or that I misused or did something wrong on purpose for the sake of defrauding BMR.

I also think you're confusing the business product with the business practice. Clearly, BMR makes some fantastic after market kits otherwise they wouldn't have the reputation that they do. Their products work as advertised by virtue of my experience yesterday driving my car for the first time since the kit was successfully installed.

The problem comes from the following.
Facts:
-The kit states that you re-use the OEM bolts
-GM's maintenance manual states that the bolts on '17 and up model years are TTY "one time use only"
-A TTY bolt, by design, is elongated and undergoes deformation when it is installed

Would you use a bolt you knew to be deformed to hold a critical piece of suspension in place regardless of whether it was a grocery getter or track car??

The reason for my posting any of this is the fact that had BMR told me up front that the cradle bolts were TTY, I would have happily bought a set of OEM bolts to use on install. In this case, both the product description and directions state that you can re-use the factory hardware. That is the ONLY thing that I take issue with and why I brought it to the attention of the forum. I am not 'flaming' BMR either, I simply brought the issue with their business practice to everyone's attention. If another member of the forum had a bad experience with a business practice I would expect to see it on here (see multiple thread entries for Hennessey) and likewise companies that have great reputations are talked about in here is well (i.e. Tony Mamo). People come on here to learn from each other on our experiences and insights.

Another thing I learned working in my dad's machine shop was that when you screw something up- own up to it and make it right. If BMR were to reach out and agree to help make this right, I'd be the first MF'er on here to talk about how great they were. That isn't the case, I got the "not our responsibility" firewall thrown in my face before I could talk to the owner, who hasn't returned my call.

Originally Posted by viurniel

IMO the installer (OP) is equally responsible, even if BMR said that one could reuse the bolts. OP states that he "felt the bolt stretch and stopped, I did not get 120 ft/lbs on it." and there lies a big issue. I don't blame you 100% OP, but you are partially responsible. If that ever happened to me I would stop and ask a lot of questions: why is it stretching? never got 120ft/lb. is it safe?

Nevertheless, BMR should proactively reach out to their customers to tell them about the oversight. In this case, I believe they should split the repair costs with OP, and anything outside of that is unacceptable.

Anyways, BMR has an excellent reputation and their stuff is top notch.

Could not agree more.

[Stephen12ZL1]

Originally Posted by kwav8r

I think you'd be surprised how much you and I have in agreement. But, the word spurious implies that I'm making this up or that I misused or did something wrong on purpose for the sake of defrauding BMR.

I also think you're confusing the business product with the business practice. Clearly, BMR makes some fantastic after market kits otherwise they wouldn't have the reputation that they do. Their products work as advertised by virtue of my experience yesterday driving my car for the first time since the kit was successfully installed.

The problem comes from the following.
Facts:
-The kit states that you re-use the OEM bolts
-GM's maintenance manual states that the bolts on '17 and up model years are TTY "one time use only"
-A TTY bolt, by design, is elongated and undergoes deformation when it is installed

Would you use a bolt you knew to be deformed to hold a critical piece of suspension in place regardless of whether it was a grocery getter or track car??

The reason for my posting any of this is the fact that had BMR told me up front that the cradle bolts were TTY, I would have happily bought a set of OEM bolts to use on install. In this case, both the product description and directions state that you can re-use the factory hardware. That is the ONLY thing that I take issue with and why I brought it to the attention of the forum. I am not 'flaming' BMR either, I simply brought the issue with their business practice to everyone's attention. If another member of the forum had a bad experience with a business practice I would expect to see it on here (see multiple thread entries for Hennessey) and likewise companies that have great reputations are talked about in here is well (i.e. Tony Mamo). People come on here to learn from each other on our experiences and insights.

Another thing I learned working in my dad's machine shop was that when you screw something up- own up to it and make it right. If BMR were to reach out and agree to help make this right, I'd be the first MF'er on here to talk about how great they were. That isn't the case, I got the "not our responsibility" firewall thrown in my face before I could talk to the owner, who hasn't returned my call.



Could not agree more.

Just as any post here about sensitive topics, my words written seem like they are hostile. I guarantee you and I would be fine face to face as your words are both intelligent and reasonable. The only issue I have with your original post is that it will likely affect BMR'S business as some people don't read the entire post. I see "I'm cancelling my order from BMR" or "I'm boycotting all BMR products" which isn't fair because we know their products are well made.

Since we are speaking of potential failures and "life & death" situations, your issue has merit and needs resolution. As I said, we weren't there to witness the bolt in question being torqued. BMR'S contention is the kit was released before GM released their shop manual and they weren't aware of the TTY fasteners in those locations. I am concerned BMR didn't update their instructions (online & printed) once the shop manuals were available.

Of course your original post came with my thoughts that "here is another guy attempting to torque a bolt for the first time, had a failure, and wants someone to pay for it". Thanks for your background explanation as that does mean a lot. People do need to read everything here. Your intentions are definitely in the best interests of everyone here and I applaud that. You and I are totally OK. PS...I appreciate how you use "MF'er"! We would definitely get along just fine.

[kwav8r]

Originally Posted by Stephen12ZL1

Of course your original post came with my thoughts that "here is another guy attempting to torque a bolt for the first time, had a failure, and wants someone to pay for it". Thanks for your background explanation as that does mean a lot. People do need to read everything here. Your intentions are definitely in the best interests of everyone here and I applaud that. You and I are totally OK. PS...I appreciate how you use "MF'er"! We would definitely get along just fine.

[kwav8r]

Took the car out today and punched it on both wet and dry asphalt at varying speeds - same result, no wallowing back and forth and this bitch now does what she should have done all along.

Whereas before the back end would go left and right under acceleration, which is uncomfortable to say the least, now she just goes where you point her.

Even with everything that has transpired, I would still recommend this kit to anybody who drives one of these cars. It freakin works. Just buy new cradle bolts to install with it.

[Mark R]

Originally Posted by kwav8r

Took the car out today and punched it on both wet and dry asphalt at varying speeds - same result, no wallowing back and forth and this bitch now does what she should have done all along.

Whereas before the back end would go left and right under acceleration, which is uncomfortable to say the least, now she just goes where you point her.

Even with everything that has transpired, I would still recommend this kit to anybody who drives one of these cars. It freakin works. Just buy new cradle bolts to install with it.

Yup. I have the control arms too, and the total package brings the car completely under control.

I just ordered the control arm bolts and cradle bolts from my dealer, who agreed to replace them all for me next week, for that final peace of mind.

[kwav8r]

Originally Posted by Mark R

Yup. I have the control arms too, and the total package brings the car completely under control.

I just ordered the control arm bolts and cradle bolts from my dealer, who agreed to replace them all for me next week, for that final peace of mind.

Did you go with the adjustable arms or the fixed?

[Mark R]

Fixed

[Indyblue98]

Originally Posted by BMR Tech

The cradle bolts and all of the trailing and control arm bolts are torque to yield or a 1 time use fasteners per GM. We designed and released all of these parts before the service manual was available to the public, and we never went back and checked any of this info until now. We have sold hundreds of these kits as well as sets of arms and this is the first instance of a failure that we know of. Our own 2016 Camaro that we designed and tested all of these parts on has been taken apart and put back together multiple times and still uses the original bolts. We are changing our instructions to read that GM recommends that the bolts not be reused and will be including the GM part numbers(Listed below). We apologize for this inconvenience. Please contact me directly at frank@bmrsuspension.com or 813-986-9302 if you have any further questions

GM Part # 11547921 Front Cradle Bolt quantity of 2 required
Torque Spec
First Pass: 100Nm(74 lbft)
Final Pass: Plus 90-105 Degrees

GM Part # 11611819 Rear Cradle Bolt quantity of 2 required
Torque Spec
First Pass: 100Nm(74 lbft)
Final Pass: Plus 90-105 Degrees

GM Part # 11610908 Upper & Lower Trailing Arm Bolt quantity of 4 required
Torque Spec
First Pass: 100Nm(74 lbft)
Final Pass: 105 Degrees

GM Part # 11610908 Outer Upper Control Arm Bolt quantity of 2 required
Torque Spec
First Pass: 70Nm(52 lbft)
Final Pass: 105 Degrees

GM Part # 11610909 Inner Upper Control Arm Bolt quantity of 2 required
Torque Spec
First Pass: 70Nm(52 lbft)
Final Pass: 105 Degrees

GM Part # 11516078 Nut for all the above control arm and trailing arm bolts quantity of 12 required

GM Part # 11609598 Outer Toe Rod Bolt quantity of 2 required
Torque Spec
First Pass: 100Nm(74 lbft)
Final Pass: 105 Degrees

I purchased and installed the Cradle lockout kit for Christmas , and still have the Trailing arms waiting for installation .

Thanks for the Part #'s on the Bolts .

The instructions quoted appear to be one time use bolts

My question is : Are the #'s Torque to Yield ?

If yes , can you PLEASE provide the Part #'s and install instructions for the older style PRE-2017 bolts that are reusable .

Can't imagine a good reason to install one time use bolts since the car is going in for alignment and more bolts would then be needed.