ZL1-LSA-MR+LS7+Pedders Coilovers = Z28? - Page 42 - Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums

Q-ship · 07-13-2011, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOWDOWN

It just occurred to me there is HISTORICAL PRECEDENCE for Camaro receiving a mass-marketed engine ahead of Corvette. Anyone remember?

Yup...1967, the Camaro's inaugural year. The soon-to-be mass-marketed engine? The 350. Fully TWO MODEL YEARS ahead of Corvette.

GEN-5 V8 Camaro-bound?

Z/28-bound?

Stay tuned...

But that 350 was the standard engine not a serious performance engine, it what ended up as the 300 hp/350 that powered everything from Novas, Chevelles, Caprices, BASE Corvette, Impalas, Wagons......... There might be a pedestrian version of the Gen V that could be releasted in the Camaro 1st, but the hottest Corvette engine does not end up in a Camaro 1st. Usually in performance engines the Corvette gets the best and that engine rarely ends up in any other models, except after the Corvette has a better engine to surplant it. I still say that a hotter LS3 in the Z/28 and as the base Corvette engine, 440 - 460 HP with 500 highter RPM range than the current LS3.

boxmonkeyracing · 07-13-2011, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JusticePete

Do you work next to a furnace?

no I work on a flightline in SW Asia right now. where it's something like 150 on the jet with no AC cart hooked up. touching any kind of metal can literally burn the heck out of you. I when I get off work I'm drenched from head to toe but there is no rain. but hey I signed up for it so I'm not really complaining. I just don't see how these rich countries in the gulf region can have such nice cars that are completely modified and still run like heck. speaking of. how would the ZL1 fair in heat index over 130?

JusticePete · 07-13-2011, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boxmonkeyracing

no I work on a flightline in SW Asia right now. where it's something like 150 on the jet with no AC cart hooked up. touching any kind of metal can literally burn the heck out of you. I when I get off work I'm drenched from head to toe but there is no rain. but hey I signed up for it so I'm not really complaining. I just don't see how these rich countries in the gulf region can have such nice cars that are completely modified and still run like heck. speaking of. how would the ZL1 fair in heat index over 130?

Heat soak will be an issue on any performance vehicle and worse with FI in that kind of heat.

ShnOmac · 07-13-2011, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boxmonkeyracing

no I work on a flightline in SW Asia right now. where it's something like 150 on the jet with no AC cart hooked up. touching any kind of metal can literally burn the heck out of you. I when I get off work I'm drenched from head to toe but there is no rain. but hey I signed up for it so I'm not really complaining. I just don't see how these rich countries in the gulf region can have such nice cars that are completely modified and still run like heck. speaking of. how would the ZL1 fair in heat index over 130?

SW Asia..... You are a glutton for punishment!

2cnd chance · 07-13-2011, 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Number 3

Oh, sorry, is this mean?

I put that up a while back.......................thought it, ummmmmmmmmmmmmm, appropriate.

So the New Z28 sounds just like this???

Number 3 · 07-13-2011, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2cnd chance

So the New Z28 sounds just like this???

What Z28? This is just what an LS7 sounds like.

*DGthe3* · 07-13-2011, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Q-ship

But that 350 was the standard engine not a serious performance engine, it what ended up as the 300 hp/350 that powered everything from Novas, Chevelles, Caprices, BASE Corvette, Impalas, Wagons......... There might be a pedestrian version of the Gen V that could be releasted in the Camaro 1st, but the hottest Corvette engine does not end up in a Camaro 1st. Usually in performance engines the Corvette gets the best and that engine rarely ends up in any other models, except after the Corvette has a better engine to surplant it. I still say that a hotter LS3 in the Z/28 and as the base Corvette engine, 440 - 460 HP with 500 highter RPM range than the current LS3.

But a next gen LS7 probably wouldn't be the hottest Corvette engine, that would be a next gen replacement for the LS9.

ShnOmac · 07-13-2011, 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DGthe3

But a next gen LS7 probably wouldn't be the hottest Corvette engine, that would be a next gen replacement for the LS9.

Thats if the LS7 still exist....

"every red blooded American needs to send a note to their elected officials in Congress and the Senate and make it very clear to them that we're tired of their legislating us to death. they are now considering a CAFE Standard of 55 to 62 mpg by 2021. That will be the death of the V8 as we know it

Sooooooo......get crackin'!"

Folks we really need to start voicing our opinions outside of this forum!

*DGthe3* · 07-13-2011, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShnOmac

Thats if the LS7 still exist....

"every red blooded American needs to send a note to their elected officials in Congress and the Senate and make it very clear to them that we're tired of their legislating us to death. they are now considering a CAFE Standard of 55 to 62 mpg by 2021. That will be the death of the V8 as we know it

Sooooooo......get crackin'!"

Folks we really need to start voicing our opinions outside of this forum!

low performance V8s will go away before high performance V8s go away

ShnOmac · 07-13-2011, 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DGthe3

low performance V8s will go away before high performance V8s go away

They could all go away if those standards are introduced!

*Mr. Wyndham* · 07-13-2011, 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShnOmac

They could all go away if those standards are introduced!

Nah, but they will become MUCH more expensive.

LOWDOWN · 07-14-2011, 10:32 AM

Just as Ford has found, comparing relative performance numbers for its GT 500 vs. BOSS, 200 lb. on the nose and 100 hp under the hood does NOT necessarily equate to a "dominating" result. Especially from the steering wheel-side of things...

The ZL1 will be an incredible result...for what it is AND for what it isn't. Lithe, scalpel-sharp handling will NOT be maximized for the chassis, but it WILL be maximized for the sum of its parts. Just as the GT 500, hobbled with massive power, a live axle and poorer weight distribution than the BOSS, is for its chassis package.

The BOSS reintroduced some semblance of "balance" (55/45 vs. Shelby's 57.5/42.5) and, combined with the Laguna Seca's R-compound tires and now-crisper handling, is much more of a "driver's car" than the Shelby. And a "driver" can show the Shelby some surprizing results in the "underpowered" BOSS.

The ZL1 is GM's confirmation that SLP, and LPE, and Hennessey, and Livernois, and all the other tuner shops were onto something from the beginning, as was Cadillac: Copy the Cadillac CTS-V formula and add 150 hp, tweak the suspension, and the SS will "go like stink"! Quicker 'round a course, too! In fact, GM added technology to the ZL1 applied to/learned from the CTS-V including MR. Which, for a 4000+ lb car (fully 200 lb. less than the CTS-V!) with even grippier tires than the Caddy cousin, will no doubt blow the -V into the weeds! Probably show tail to the (existing) Shelby...and likely the BOSS, too.

BUT...

"Dressed", as many folks will wish for (CF5/Leather/bells 'n whistles), the ZL1 will be the aforementioned 4000+ lb. 200 more than ol' Shel's bad boy. Fully 400 more than the BOSS. With a price tag = to the GT 500, and close to (if not more than) $10,000 more than the BOSS. Almost Vette GS money, but with Vette GS PLUS performance (owing to the Vette's LS3 vs. the ZL1's LSA).

A 2SS Coupe, "dressed for success", maxes under $40Gs. The "double throwdown/triple trick/loaded" ZL1 will cruise through mid-$50s with full boulevard gear (like a Shelby). B I G gap, there...

Somebody mention power-to-weight? Judiciously parted/sourced/assembled, a 1SS-derived LS-engined MN6 Camaro can come in about 3800-ish and still survive DD and crash tests. At that weight, no forced induction will be present. And that weight is 5% more than a BOSS. So anything you apply to the Camaro that exceeds a 5% increase over the BOSS will narrow the gap, or exceed the "baseline". IF properly engineered. Which, we all agree, Al 'n the boys are capable of, right?

444 hp + 5% = 466 hp.
380 ft-lb + 5% = 400 ft-lb
255/285 tires + 5% = 275/305
Weight distribution/BOSS = 55/45%
Weight Distribution/1SS = 52/48% (5.8%)

What weight-friendly RPO-ready engine has 466+ hp?
Will 275/305 tires fit? Can MORE fit?
Is IRS an advantage?
Is MR an advantage?
Can a chassis be tuned to exceed current parameters without MR?

Having first-hand experience with the LS7, 505 hp is a "safe" number. In my experiences with the LS7, the hyper-craptastic (a word coined elsewhere recently) pistons are its intentional limitation which, unless someone tunes beyond reasonable limits or resorts to a power-adder or foolishly raises the 7000 rpm redline, are NOT something to be overly concerned about.

The Coyote 5.0 is getting close to its "ultimate" limits. It's not likely you'll see 5.0L with 500+hp, n/a, in a Mustang coming down the assemblyline. And 380 ft-lb max torque at 4500 rpm means this engine is a buzz-bomb...not unlike the original BOSS AND the original 302 Z.

On paper, the wiley Coyote is no match for the 7.0 LS7, except in fuel economy...

With the LS7 "line" being "underutilized" in Wixom at the moment, some "ZEE synergy" would be welcomed...and using GM's own wet-sump kit, there, does not require a letter from the Pope to "resolve", nor does it create any weight OR packaging concerns...

Add the being-validated-as-we-speak ZL1 HD driveline pieces/brakes/wheels, throw on some R-compounds, price it at the Laguna Seca's doorstep...bash a few BOSSes...and dial up some Oshawa overtime...

Could a "massaged" LS3 work? Of course...but where is it, and how long would that process take/waste? And you'll need a forged crank/forged 4340 rods, perhaps pistons and certainly a cam to have a durable 7,000 rpm LS3+...and testing...and smogging...and... More time. More money. More co$t. To end up with less than an LS7, short of mpg (maybe).

Could a Gen-5 "SBC" work? If it meets the performance numbers required, yes. But see above...how long/when?!

Can a Gen-5 Camaro compete with/beat a BOSS? Yes.

Can a non-boosted Camaro do the deed? Yes.

Equal dollar$? Yes.

In Ford's most successful BOSS year, 1970, only 7,000 were sold. They plan on less than 5,000/year over the next 2 years. I'm very confident GM could move more...many more!

Keep in mind, from 1SS to BOSS LS, there's $16,000. There's a few Franklins that should stay in the ol' GM bank account...

And, for those who want "the MOST", try our sparkling, brand spankin' new ZL1!

If life is all about choices, here's one that many Camaro intenders would/could/will warm up to...with checkbook in hand.

After all, Ford gives their folks the choice...in fact THREE ways...BOSS/BOSS LS/GT 500.

2cnd chance · 07-14-2011, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Number 3

What Z28? This is just what an LS7 sounds like.

Exactly!!!

2cnd chance · 07-14-2011, 04:32 PM

So what your saying is a Z28 is doable at an affordable price? Wow what's behind door Number 3?

07-14-2011, 10:32 AM	#586
LOWDOWN Downright Upright Drives: Daily Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Cruisin'... Posts: 4,145	Just as Ford has found, comparing relative performance numbers for its GT 500 vs. BOSS, 200 lb. on the nose and 100 hp under the hood does NOT necessarily equate to a "dominating" result. Especially from the steering wheel-side of things... The ZL1 will be an incredible result...for what it is AND for what it isn't. Lithe, scalpel-sharp handling will NOT be maximized for the chassis, but it WILL be maximized for the sum of its parts. Just as the GT 500, hobbled with massive power, a live axle and poorer weight distribution than the BOSS, is for its chassis package. The BOSS reintroduced some semblance of "balance" (55/45 vs. Shelby's 57.5/42.5) and, combined with the Laguna Seca's R-compound tires and now-crisper handling, is much more of a "driver's car" than the Shelby. And a "driver" can show the Shelby some surprizing results in the "underpowered" BOSS. The ZL1 is GM's confirmation that SLP, and LPE, and Hennessey, and Livernois, and all the other tuner shops were onto something from the beginning, as was Cadillac: Copy the Cadillac CTS-V formula and add 150 hp, tweak the suspension, and the SS will "go like stink"! Quicker 'round a course, too! In fact, GM added technology to the ZL1 applied to/learned from the CTS-V including MR. Which, for a 4000+ lb car (fully 200 lb. less than the CTS-V!) with even grippier tires than the Caddy cousin, will no doubt blow the -V into the weeds! Probably show tail to the (existing) Shelby...and likely the BOSS, too. BUT... "Dressed", as many folks will wish for (CF5/Leather/bells 'n whistles), the ZL1 will be the aforementioned 4000+ lb. 200 more than ol' Shel's bad boy. Fully 400 more than the BOSS. With a price tag = to the GT 500, and close to (if not more than) $10,000 more than the BOSS. Almost Vette GS money, but with Vette GS PLUS performance (owing to the Vette's LS3 vs. the ZL1's LSA). A 2SS Coupe, "dressed for success", maxes under $40Gs. The "double throwdown/triple trick/loaded" ZL1 will cruise through mid-$50s with full boulevard gear (like a Shelby). B I G gap, there... Somebody mention power-to-weight? Judiciously parted/sourced/assembled, a 1SS-derived LS-engined MN6 Camaro can come in about 3800-ish and still survive DD and crash tests. At that weight, no forced induction will be present. And that weight is 5% more than a BOSS. So anything you apply to the Camaro that exceeds a 5% increase over the BOSS will narrow the gap, or exceed the "baseline". IF properly engineered. Which, we all agree, Al 'n the boys are capable of, right? 444 hp + 5% = 466 hp. 380 ft-lb + 5% = 400 ft-lb 255/285 tires + 5% = 275/305 Weight distribution/BOSS = 55/45% Weight Distribution/1SS = 52/48% (5.8%) What weight-friendly RPO-ready engine has 466+ hp? Will 275/305 tires fit? Can MORE fit? Is IRS an advantage? Is MR an advantage? Can a chassis be tuned to exceed current parameters without MR? Having first-hand experience with the LS7, 505 hp is a "safe" number. In my experiences with the LS7, the hyper-craptastic (a word coined elsewhere recently) pistons are its intentional limitation which, unless someone tunes beyond reasonable limits or resorts to a power-adder or foolishly raises the 7000 rpm redline, are NOT something to be overly concerned about. The Coyote 5.0 is getting close to its "ultimate" limits. It's not likely you'll see 5.0L with 500+hp, n/a, in a Mustang coming down the assemblyline. And 380 ft-lb max torque at 4500 rpm means this engine is a buzz-bomb...not unlike the original BOSS AND the original 302 Z. On paper, the wiley Coyote is no match for the 7.0 LS7, except in fuel economy... With the LS7 "line" being "underutilized" in Wixom at the moment, some "ZEE synergy" would be welcomed...and using GM's own wet-sump kit, there, does not require a letter from the Pope to "resolve", nor does it create any weight OR packaging concerns... Add the being-validated-as-we-speak ZL1 HD driveline pieces/brakes/wheels, throw on some R-compounds, price it at the Laguna Seca's doorstep...bash a few BOSSes...and dial up some Oshawa overtime... Could a "massaged" LS3 work? Of course...but where is it, and how long would that process take/waste? And you'll need a forged crank/forged 4340 rods, perhaps pistons and certainly a cam to have a durable 7,000 rpm LS3+...and testing...and smogging...and... More time. More money. More co$t. To end up with less than an LS7, short of mpg (maybe). Could a Gen-5 "SBC" work? If it meets the performance numbers required, yes. But see above...how long/when?! Can a Gen-5 Camaro compete with/beat a BOSS? Yes. Can a non-boosted Camaro do the deed? Yes. Equal dollar$? Yes. In Ford's most successful BOSS year, 1970, only 7,000 were sold. They plan on less than 5,000/year over the next 2 years. I'm very confident GM could move more...many more! Keep in mind, from 1SS to BOSS LS, there's $16,000. There's a few Franklins that should stay in the ol' GM bank account... And, for those who want "the MOST", try our sparkling, brand spankin' new ZL1! If life is all about choices, here's one that many Camaro intenders would/could/will warm up to...with checkbook in hand. After all, Ford gives their folks the choice...in fact THREE ways...BOSS/BOSS LS/GT 500. Last edited by LOWDOWN; 07-14-2011 at 04:48 PM.

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07-14-2011, 04:32 PM	#588
2cnd chance Too Many Great Choices Drives: Grand Sport/Z07 Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: A Mountain Road Posts: 7,454	So what your saying is a Z28 is doable at an affordable price? Wow what's behind door Number 3?