What's YOUR Ideal "Racy" Camaro?

[2cnd chance]

The LS7 is ready to win now. Your LS3 would take more time to ready. We want a 5Gen Z28.

Also a 6Gen Z28 will surely have a GenV DI engine.

[zogster]

Originally Posted by 2cnd chance

The LS7 is ready to win now. Your LS3 would take more time to ready. We want a 5Gen Z28.

Also a 6Gen Z28 will surely have a GenV DI engine.

The LS3 wouldn't take very much time. If GM has/had already started on it then it wouldn't take long from now at all.

The LS7 is way too expensive.

Take a $38K 2SS. Add $7k (cost of LS7 over LS3). Add $6k in other upgrades (suspension, lighter wheels) as I suggested. Now you're at $51k.

That gives you a 505HP Z/28 for $51k or a 580HP ZL1 for probably not much more.

Wouldn't be surprised if the LS7 has gas guzzler tax on it too.

[2cnd chance]

That's loaded. Start with a 1SS and your $6-7K less. Most Z28 customers will put performance ahead of luxury(2SS).

[flopjack]

Originally Posted by 2cnd chance

That's loaded. Start with a 1SS and your $6-7K less. Most Z28 customers will put performance ahead of luxury(2SS).

One of the major trim differences is the leather seats anyhow, and those would likely be replaced with something racier.

I understand the readiness of the LS7 as a N/A option that could be available, and I think it would be a fine option if it were built. However, I don't think it is "Old School" style or particularly sensitive to the heritage of the Z/28. It's not an engine that is particularly "Z". Instead, it would historically represent a different Camaro. 427 ci is not historically a classic Z/28 displacement.

The original Z/28, correct me if I am wrong, had the smallest displacement V8 in the 1st Generation lineup - 302 was it? In that respect an engine that would be more representative of what the orignal Z/28 featured would be a lot smaller while maintaining punch. What you want is an engine like this one:



Its a dry-sump V8 displacing 4.5 liters (270 ci), which is not a lot. It also produces 562 bhp and redlines at 9,000 rpm, and both of those are a lot. It has continuously variable timing and direct injection. I am not suggesting this exact engine should be used, but merely something like it - it is, after all a race-bred, high revving, low-displacement, high output V8, which is very much in line with what a modern interpretation of the original Z/28 engine should be. The problem is, nothing like it is currently available from GM.

[Brad02SS]

The ideal racy Camaro right now is a stripped out SS, dedicated road course suspension (like Pedders), upgraded wheels, tires, and brakes, and maybe around 500hp. On most road courses a 500hp SS with the right suspension will be faster than a 580hp ZL1. What's it take to get an LS3 to 500hp other than basic bolt-ons? Cam? Heads? 550-600+ hp is nice, but 500hp would get the job done on a smaller budget.

[wildpaws]

Originally Posted by flopjack

One of the major trim differences is the leather seats anyhow, and those would likely be replaced with something racier.

I understand the readiness of the LS7 as a N/A option that could be available, and I think it would be a fine option if it were built. However, I don't think it is "Old School" style or particularly sensitive to the heritage of the Z/28. It's not an engine that is particularly "Z". Instead, it would historically represent a different Camaro. 427 ci is not historically a classic Z/28 displacement.

The original Z/28, correct me if I am wrong, had the smallest displacement V8 in the 1st Generation lineup - 302 was it? In that respect an engine that would be more representative of what the orignal Z/28 featured would be a lot smaller while maintaining punch. What you want is an engine like this one:



Its a dry-sump V8 displacing 4.5 liters (270 ci), which is not a lot. It also produces 562 bhp and redlines at 9,000 rpm, and both of those are a lot. It has continuously variable timing and direct injection. I am not suggesting this exact engine should be used, but merely something like it - it is, after all a race-bred, high revving, low-displacement, high output V8, which is very much in line with what a modern interpretation of the original Z/28 engine should be. The problem is, nothing like it is currently available from GM.

I think your ideas have some validity, but I doubt that GM would go that route. If they decided to do so, then a modern 302cid (4.9L or 5.0L depending on who you ask) would certainly be correct in terms of heritage, much as Ford did with the new Boss 302. Unless there is a GM 5.0L engine hanging around that I'm not aware of (and there could be as I'm not that familar with the current GM lineup other than the 3.6, 6.2, and 7.0 engines), then I don't see that happening, I don't think GM would spend the time, money, and energy to develop one unless it was a new Gen.5 SBC.
Clyde

[2cnd chance]

Originally Posted by flopjack

One of the major trim differences is the leather seats anyhow, and those would likely be replaced with something racier.

I understand the readiness of the LS7 as a N/A option that could be available, and I think it would be a fine option if it were built. However, I don't think it is "Old School" style or particularly sensitive to the heritage of the Z/28. It's not an engine that is particularly "Z". Instead, it would historically represent a different Camaro. 427 ci is not historically a classic Z/28 displacement.

The original Z/28, correct me if I am wrong, had the smallest displacement V8 in the 1st Generation lineup - 302 was it? In that respect an engine that would be more representative of what the orignal Z/28 featured would be a lot smaller while maintaining punch. What you want is an engine like this one:



Its a dry-sump V8 displacing 4.5 liters (270 ci), which is not a lot. It also produces 562 bhp and redlines at 9,000 rpm, and both of those are a lot. It has continuously variable timing and direct injection. I am not suggesting this exact engine should be used, but merely something like it - it is, after all a race-bred, high revving, low-displacement, high output V8, which is very much in line with what a modern interpretation of the original Z/28 engine should be. The problem is, nothing like it is currently available from GM.

The CI was dictated by the SCCA not GM, and I believe the SCCA let it grow to 5.7 liters in 1970(?). That being said the Z28 was a track based car which necessitates a high-revving race-inspired engine, hence the already available LS7 fits the bill perfectly. The LS7 is derived from the LeMans winning Corvette. What better engine is already available to build into the Z28???
Also speaking of heritage the 60's based 427 was a BB a very different animal from today's LS7 SB.

Also the LS7 being built in larger quantities should allow for a price reduction.

[2cnd chance]

Originally Posted by wildpaws

I think your ideas have some validity, but I doubt that GM would go that route. If they decided to do so, then a modern 302cid (4.9L or 5.0L depending on who you ask) would certainly be correct in terms of heritage, much as Ford did with the new Boss 302. Unless there is a GM 5.0L engine hanging around that I'm not aware of (and there could be as I'm not that familar with the current GM lineup other than the 3.6, 6.2, and 7.0 engines), then I don't see that happening, I don't think GM would spend the time, money, and energy to develop one unless it was a new Gen.5 SBC.
Clyde

EXactly!!!

[LOWDOWN]

Check the redline for the LS7 vs. LS3...higher-rated @ 7000...making the LS7 (regardless of displacement) the REVVER of the LS (current) family... Heritage intact.

It already has 500+ hp...is certified and validated and smogged for RPO production...and is READY...

270 inches will produce how much TORQUE, a very necessary ingredient in launching/maintaining/corner-exiting a 3800+ lb projectile with mega-grin results? Certainly not the LS7's 470+ (a number an LS3 will NOT match, either...).

[flopjack]

Originally Posted by LOWDOWN

Check the redline for the LS7 vs. LS3...higher-rated @ 7000...making the LS7 (regardless of displacement) the REVVER of the LS (current) family... Heritage intact.

It already has 500+ hp...is certified and validated and smogged for RPO production...and is READY...

270 inches will produce how much TORQUE, a very necessary ingredient in launching/maintaining/corner-exiting a 3800+ lb projectile with mega-grin results? Certainly not the LS7's 470+ (a number an LS3 will NOT match, either...).

For the record, that particular engine has 398 lb-ft of torque and 562 hp. However, I respectfully disagree with your opinion that torque is necessary for a quick corner exit, and I here is why:

Torque is defined as the moment about a point, specifically the tendency of a force to cause rotational motion about a point. It is a measure of the ability to do work, and work is defined as a scalar quantity that is the product of a force. Remember Torque - length of the lever multiplied by a force, which is "work." Power is a measure of the rate that work is performed. With every revolution of the engine, a certain amount of work is performed. In a powerful engine, this work is performed in a short amount of time. In the case of the mysterious example engine vs. the LS7, a sacrifice in torque for increased revolutions means that more work is performed, or more potential energy is converted into kinetic energy in the same amount of time. Since kinetic energy is a function of mass and velocity, assuming the weight of the car is the same with either engine, then the acceleration off of the corner is faster with the lower torque, higher revving engine than it is with the higher torque, lower revving engine because it gets the work done faster. In a nutshell, torque is only useful on the racetrack when combined with revolutions to create power. HP rules.

In those senses, I agree that the LS7 supports the heritage of the Z28, although I don't feel that 7000 is a particularly high redline for this day and age to be considered high. Remember, that's what the V6's redline at. If it were 7500 or 8000 then I think that would more clearly distinguish the engine as a modern high-revver. I just don't think the LS family is right for the job. A COPO perhaps. But its all a moot point, because the LS7 is the only option that appears to be currently available and its inclusion vs the other theoretical engine would not affect my want...no need for a Z/28 and appears to be the most likely option. I also agree with you that a Camaro with an LS7 would be a very awesome car and I would still buy it over the ZL1, which I would probably only buy if the Z/28 is never made, or completely fails our expectations, or if I win the lottery (and I don't even play so that makes it difficult).

I think its very interesting to compare each of our dreams for a Z/28 and discuss the reasons that we want each specific feature included.

[flopjack]

Originally Posted by wildpaws

I think your ideas have some validity, but I doubt that GM would go that route. If they decided to do so, then a modern 302cid (4.9L or 5.0L depending on who you ask) would certainly be correct in terms of heritage, much as Ford did with the new Boss 302. Unless there is a GM 5.0L engine hanging around that I'm not aware of (and there could be as I'm not that familar with the current GM lineup other than the 3.6, 6.2, and 7.0 engines), then I don't see that happening, I don't think GM would spend the time, money, and energy to develop one unless it was a new Gen.5 SBC.
Clyde

I'm not particularly partial to the number 302 either - the displacement would be dictated by the rules of a racing series that the Camaro is used in, essentially putting the same displacement on the street as is required on the track. From my perspective, the current likely displacements that would be true to that criteria would be 5.5L or 358 ci (and 5.5L seems to be the more likely of the two). I think it is very safe to say that we will not see a 4.5L - it was only a possible example of an existing engine that would have features that are true to the heritage and race-bred history of the Z/28.

I agree that it would definitely be a Gen.5 V8 if this type of an engine would be included. The LS series, although there is no LS8 to my knowledge, seems to be winding down and I doubt there would be an all-new displacement offered. Based on what is currently available it seems that the LS7 would be the only logical fit. However, as I have expressed before, I do not think we will get a Z/28 before the new V8's debut and that heart of the (late) 2013 or 2014 Z/28 will be a power plant that we have yet to see revealed.

[LOWDOWN]

Lovely theory...but you don't have a lot of experience road racing if you don't think corner-exit torque is important, especially in a heavy vehicle...

Corner-exit engine speeds tend to be in the upper mid-range rpm of the selected gear. Ideally, you don't exit a corner at redline, or even close to redline. You get the car settled, and going straight. So to push/pull you back up to speed as quickly as possible, your ideal exit speed is somewhere very close to torque peak...which is generally about 2/3rds of max. rpm (camshaft/engine set-up dependant - i.e. big inch, OHV/OHC and so on) on a streetable engine. Remember the Torque curve and the HP curve meet @ 5252, right? That may be a good rpm to shoot for, again depending on engine and car.

In the case of the LS7, its 470 torque rating arrives fully at 4800 rpm, but being a big-inch engine, the torque curve is not "peaky" at 48, it's progressive, up to AND down from that point (think "high plains")...moreso than the LS3.

The much smaller 5.0 the BOSS wears has a torque peak of only 380 @ 4500, but being a smaller engine, it ramps up AND down more quickly (think "foothills"). (I don't have the graphs of each to overlay, but I think you'd see a measured difference in torque plane)

So, Mustang BOSS weighs 3631 lb, with 380 max torque = 9.56 lb/lb-ft
And Camaro LS7 will curb @ 3850, with 470 max torque = 8.19 lb/lb-ft...17% better than BOSS!
With your 270" wonder, and 3850, and its 398 "rating" = 9.68 lb/lb-ft...< BOSS

Out of the hairpin, and down the back straight, feel free to tuck in behind me and use my draft...

At the end of the straightaway, a whole 'nother story...HP rules!

BTW, I doubt you'd get a GM 5/100 PT warranty on a 4.5L with 562 hp/9000 redline...

[2cnd chance]

For a much greater than 7K redline we would most likely have to move away from pushrods.

After a loss of momentum while cornering it's the torque that gets you going!

GM we have solved the puzzle of the Z28: LS7 and the ZL1 performance bits, minus MR and walla, enter Z28.

[wildpaws]

Originally Posted by 2cnd chance

For a much greater than 7K redline we would most likely have to move away from pushrods.

After a loss of momentum while cornering it's the torque that gets you going!

GM we have solved the puzzle of the Z28: LS7 and the ZL1 performance bits, minus MR and walla, enter Z28.

I think with the right valve train/pushrod combination that you could get the redline higher than 7K, at least in the short term. Other than that, I think the larger displacement/greater torque solution is preferable in terms of final cost and durability. Obviously NASCAR goes over 9K redline with pushrods, but those engines only need to last a few hundred miles worth.
Clyde