Speedster's SST Camaro Build Thread [COTW 9/13/10]

[ask4yah]

Can you loan me even half of that power, 600 is good enough for me even at the crank.

[speedster]

Originally Posted by ask4yah

Can you loan me even half of that power, 600 is good enough for me even at the crank.

Ha, ha - np.

It's all about having fun. On the street, at the road course, at the Fest, on the dragstrip, at the Maxton Mile, at events like Silver State Classic Challenge, cruisin' with friends... Just a bunch of Camaro/car enthusiasts havin' fun.

[600hp-lpe]

Originally Posted by speedster

Ha, ha - np.

It's all about having fun. On the street, at the road course, at the Fest, on the dragstrip, at the Maxton Mile, at events like Silver State Classic Challenge, cruisin' with friends... Just a bunch of Camaro/car enthusiasts havin' fun.

I'm with ya on that one..
I built my car to be multi-purpose as well.
Drags, autocross, road course - and cruising with friends.
Guess I can add the Fest to my list as well..

[Dr Jkel]

Hey Bruce a couple of crazy questions for you. I saw in another thread where MTI had a Camaro go 205 or something like that, not really sure about all the technical stuff they had on their car.

So is MPH directly related to HP, by that I mean since you have say 1500 hp can you go 250 MHP???? (Just using those numbers as examples.) Or does it have more to do with gearing in the tranny and rear end as well?

Now say you have the correct engineering to do top speed and that is what you built it for, ( I am assuming that you have to build it for strip or top speed applications - I don't know just asking) will the car be able to handle the speed of over 200 mph.

I know the stock version will do 155 safely but is governed to that speed ( STOCK) but when mine Dyno'd it had a MPH gauge on it. I saw when they had the rev limiter turned up a bit that the MPH showed 191. While I am sure that is a high estimate and would be lower since there was no wind resistance etc...... it did give me some insight to what the car might do. As a note they raised the rev limiter to show me that I would no blow my car up by driving it since I was concerned, of course they turned it back down for the final tune.

Just curious to know what you think your car will do.

[speedster]

Originally Posted by Dr Jkel

Hey Bruce a couple of crazy questions for you. I saw in another thread where MTI had a Camaro go 205 or something like that, not really sure about all the technical stuff they had on their car.

So is MPH directly related to HP, by that I mean since you have say 1500 hp can you go 250 MHP???? (Just using those numbers as examples.) Or does it have more to do with gearing in the tranny and rear end as well?

Now say you have the correct engineering to do top speed and that is what you built it for, ( I am assuming that you have to build it for strip or top speed applications - I don't know just asking) will the car be able to handle the speed of over 200 mph.

I know the stock version will do 155 safely but is governed to that speed ( STOCK) but when mine Dyno'd it had a MPH gauge on it. I saw when they had the rev limiter turned up a bit that the MPH showed 191. While I am sure that is a high estimate and would be lower since there was no wind resistance etc...... it did give me some insight to what the car might do. As a note they raised the rev limiter to show me that I would no blow my car up by driving it since I was concerned, of course they turned it back down for the final tune.

Just curious to know what you think your car will do.

Hey J-

Here is a quick description of what it takes to go fast. (Courtesy of Norwood Auto):

Drag increases exponentially with speed, in a parabolic function. For example (neglecting the effect of rolling resistance), if 100 horsepower would push a certain vehicle 100 miles per hour through the air, doubling the speed to 200 would require two-squared or 400 horsepower to overcome air resistance, while 300 miles per hour would require 900 horsepower.

Components of the following formula which can be used to compute power required to achieve a certain speed in a vehicle:

Power = 8.702 x 10**(-6) x Cd x A x V**3

where Cd = coefficient of drag (look it up for your vehicle)
A = square feet of frontal area of the vehicle
V = Velocity, in miles per hour

The 8.702 x 10**(-6) section of the equation is a slightly-fudged correction factor made up by me to account for air density, gravity, rolling resistance, etc. Bell uses 6.7 x 10**(-6) x Cd x A x mph**3 and adjusts for actual rolling resistance, where

Rolling Power = 4.0 x 10**(-5) x weight x mph

Cd is adjusted to include rolling resistance (a relatively flat function), and air density is assumed to be standard Temp. and pressure at sea level. Intuitively, power required to achieve a certain speed is dependent on how good a shape the vehicle has (coefficient of drag), how big the shape is (frontal area), and how dense the air is.

Working through an example, Bill Gordon’s Norwood Autocraft 8.2L 288-GTO 308 conversion, assuming a Cd of .33, a frontal area of 20.5 square feet, and assuming a target speed is 200 mph. Therefore,

Required Power = (8.702 x 10**(-6) x.33 x 20.5 x 200**3
Required Power = 0.000008702 x .33 x 20.5 x 8,000,000
Required Power = 472

Observed results when Norwood was running the car with a super-high-output naturally-aspirated 302-inch Chevrolet small-block engine were that the estimated 550-600 plus crankshaft horsepower took the car to 199 mph. Norwood says experience indicates it takes almost 600 crankshaft horsepower to break 200mph, a rule of thumb born-out yet again when a Norwood Toyota MR2-turbo set a record in the 1.5-liter blown modified sports class after it attained 207 mph on 465 chassis dyno rear-wheel horsepower, an estimated 585 at the crank.

Another formula computes power required to increase to a new higher speed:
New Required Power = Old Power (New Speed/Old Speed)**3,
where Old Power is total available rear-wheel power.

For the 288-GTO to attain 300 miles per hour,

New Power = 472 x (300/200)**3
New Power = 1593 HP


A little long winded, but you get the idea. Power is only one piece, albiet a big one. Just as important are Coefficient of Drag (Cd), ground clearance, tires, tranny and gears. There are stock bodied cars that have broken 300. Years ago, John Lingenfelter's Twin Turbocharged 1400 hp Firebird had the record at 298. He used 6 nitrous bottles to keep the intercoolers cold !

[Gotthat02fire]

Ok if you say so I still think the speed of light is right around the corner and no one will be able to see how fast your really going!!!!!!

[Dr Jkel]

What??? My coefficent drag squared times 2 minues tires, LMAO I understand a little, but I was more asking specifically about SST and what you thought it would do based on how you have designed and are building it.

Based on the massive amount of HP, I am sure the gearing will be correct, the tires will be able to handle the power etc....

I watch Nascar be able to sustain 200 MPH for extended periods of time but I bet their 1/4 mile times are not that great because of the gearing for different tracks. Then I watch NHRA do 300 MPH in the 1/4 and have to be torn down after each pass.

I think each different version, track, strip, autocross, drifting etc... is built specifically for their application and use and from what I know about SST I THINK you are building the best of both worlds and very streetable, drivable, trackable hotrod.

With that in mind and your extreme knowledge and expertise I guess my question is do you have certain numbers in mind based on your knowledge and experience for the strip and top end that you would like to achieve.

Just trying to expand my knowledge a little.

[600hp-lpe]

Hmm... Bruce is calculating... calculating...

Answer: really FAST and it's a SECRET. LOL

Rule #1 : keep the competitors guessing...

[Dr Jkel]

Originally Posted by 600hp-lpe

Hmm... Bruce is calculating... calculating...

Answer: really FAST and it's a SECRET. LOL

Rule #1 : keep the competitors guessing...

Now that just ain't right

[speedster]

Originally Posted by 600hp-lpe

Hmm... Bruce is calculating... calculating...

Answer: really FAST and it's a SECRET. LOL

Rule #1 : keep the competitors guessing...

Yes... Besides if you put numbers out there, you are kind of "on the hook". Calculated surprises are more fun. There were a bunch of performance design goals for SST - 1/4 mile, Road G's, standing miles, open road, streetability, comfort, no equipment changes between street/track and most important - the FUN FACTOR !!!

As the SST starts accumulating real numbers it will be neat to see how the report card comes out. As long as the Fun Factor is high the rest will follow.

Originally Posted by Dr Jkel

Now that just ain't right

J - See above...

[Brianskeet]

Really like your explanation on speed vs drag etc. Your level of technical expertise is impressive! One of my favorite parts of this thread has been how much I learn.

[speedster]

Originally Posted by Brianskeet

Really like your explanation on speed vs drag etc. Your level of technical expertise is impressive! One of my favorite parts of this thread has been how much I learn.

Thanks B.

Most of it is knowing who to ask or where to look. We are always a couple cans short of a six pack down here...

You should ask GTA about boat/aircraft stuff we do. That gets pretty intense...

[PQ]

Originally Posted by speedster

Hey J-

Here is a quick description of what it takes to go fast. (Courtesy of Norwood Auto):

Drag increases exponentially with speed, in a parabolic function. For example (neglecting the effect of rolling resistance), if 100 horsepower would push a certain vehicle 100 miles per hour through the air, doubling the speed to 200 would require two-squared or 400 horsepower to overcome air resistance, while 300 miles per hour would require 900 horsepower.

So then you should be able to do a bazillion miles per hour.......

[GTAHVIT]

I've had the pleasure of spending time with Bruce and his team...

Trying to keep up with the extreme amount of information is kinda like trying to drink from a fire hose...

When you're done you aren't thirsty anymore but you are soaking wet from all the extra...