New photos: Camaro Z28 Testing Against GT500

[BackinBlackSS/RS]

I think it is safe to say it's gonna come with with this standard.

[Z28RockStar]

Originally Posted by ViperTomcat

Well lets look at it this way..

They can isolate who was working that day, who was where when the Z/28 was in the bay..(or whatever)..and get someone to throw another under the bus.

Still wont help the company if GM see's that, knows where it was taken, and views the company and its employee's as untrustworthy. A bunch of stupid pixels on a screen are not worth several peoples jobs, or at worst, the loss of a contract and damage to a company.

Numerous people have been charged with theft and violations of intelectual property laws for pre-production pictures of the Camaro in testing, the Challenger and such. This is no different.

I agree, I no way wish anyones livelihood threatened or compromised. You express a very valid and intelligible position. I just love Chevrolet Camaros and Zs so much I can't stand imagining the position some people are in being able to "preview" the new Z release. I am just envious and chomping at the bit so to speak. HEHEHEHE Z28!!!!! YAR!!!!

:d rinking::d rinking:

[syr74]

Originally Posted by Kyle2k

So what you are saying, in the same engine boost is boost? No matter how much horsepower you are pushing (depending on the flow of the heads). An engine making 700hp with 9lb's of boost, and one making 625 with 9lb's of boost, will have the same reliability in the end?

Of course boost is never just boost, if it was an otherwise identical engine wouldn't make more power with an identical amount of boost through a different supercharger.

That said, in this instance yes, if Ford were to switch the supercharger on the GT500 to a 2.3L Eaton TVS there would absolutely be no change in terms of reliability, unless there was an improvement, even with the roughly 100hp improvement in horsepower unless the increased boost noticeably past current levels. Why?

Simple. In every mechanical aspect the TVS is superior to the traditional rootes design, including thermal efficiency and air delivery. A similarly sized Eaton spun at the same rpm as a traditional rootes blower is going to move more air, make more boost, and still be more reliable than the factory rootes (made by Eaton as well fwiw) because thermal efficiency is so much better. In a blown application, so long as the internals are up to snuff, heat is always the thing you want to eliminate from the equation if you can, and the TVS removes a lot of heat from this equation.

[boxmonkeyracing]

Originally Posted by syr74

You do understand that it doesn't actually work like that? Ford has some of the toughest engine durability standards in the industry. As for longer warranties, ever known anybody who owned a Northstar-powered Cadillac? We used to call them the 100k mile hand grenade because, at 100k, it was virtually like pulling a pin on one of the old pienapples, they almost always blow in short order.



Again, it doesn't work like that. The TVS makes superior power relative to the traditional rootes blower because of increased efficiency at a given level of boost. That means more power with less heat, and less heat always means superior engine life all else being equal.

and why don't they offer longer warranty's if it was soo damn good? sorry we are talking current engines and models not the 90's.

I know for a fact you add boost pressure to a line the more boost you have the more likely it will go boom. there are many factors and efficiency is very important. but if it's not the end all be all of boost. you are arguing efficiency. reliability is what I care about. and the fact of the matter is it will shorten the life of an engine when you add more it shortens the life.

From my understanding of the two blowers of what I've read here. all you are really doing is increasing the amount of boost. not efficiency. but if what you are saying about just the difference between the two is efficiency. I totally understand. cooler air always makes more power. duh. why most cars run faster in early spring and late fall, why low humidity is great also. also denser air makes cars run faster at sea level, verses denver co.

[syr74]

Originally Posted by boxmonkeyracing

and why don't they offer longer warranty's if it was soo damn good? sorry we are talking current engines and models not the 90's.

GM still sells cars with the Northstar as a powerplant, so it isn't getting a pass yet. As for the warranty question, Hyundai and Kia very arguably offer the best warranty in the business, are you saying they therefore must build the most reliable cars? If not, why wont GM or anybody else match them?

Of course the answer is that how reliable a car is and how much warranty it has on it are mutually exclusive.

Originally Posted by boxmonkeyracing

I know for a fact you add boost pressure to a line the more boost you have the more likely it will go boom. there are many factors and efficiency is very important. but if it's not the end all be all of boost. you are arguing efficiency. reliability is what I care about. and the fact of the matter is it will shorten the life of an engine when you add more it shortens the life.

Nope, you're leaving out waaay to many variables. For example, speaking specifically to a concern for reliability......Assuming decent installation and design in both cases I would much rather be running an intercooled Eaton running 16psi of boost than a typical turbocharger running 12psi of boost without an intercooler, and I virtually guarantee you my engine would too for reasons that should be obvious. The heat in a turbo setup like that is going to do seriously bad things long term and it's going to cost me power even if turned the blower back down to an identical 12psi.

That is a generic comparison to be sure, but it makes what should be a very obvious point very clear, boost is not just boost and more boost does not necessarily equate to less reliability.....there are too many variables to make such a generic statement. The heat in a turbo setup like that is going to do seriously bad things long term and it's going to cost me power even if turned the blower back down to an identical 12psi.

That is a relatively extreme example of the situation, but it makes my point. In that comparison the advantages for the higher boost motor are found in increased thermal efficiency and what that means to both power and reliability. One of the major advantages of the TVS design over the older traditional rootes setup it replaced? A 75% improvement in thermal efficiency.

Originally Posted by boxmonkeyracing

From my understanding of the two blowers of what I've read here. all you are really doing is increasing the amount of boost. not efficiency.

According to Eaton there is a 75% improvement in thermal efficiency.

[fazm]

Originally Posted by Kyle2k

It's with him in the car...assuming he doesnt weigh 100 lbs....that really isnt too bad of a weight for a s/c'd car. The Gt500 weighs 3820 so if we are just 100lbs heavier...we are in good running I believe. However I'm guessing the weight difference might be closer than that.

fyi, the 2011 model weighs 3751 on a 4 corner scale.

3820 is the non svtpp and equipped with the shaker 1000 and electronics package.

half way down on the left

http://www.caranddriver.com/var/ezfl...61be6477a5.pdf

so for the z28 to be as quick (given equal traction) id guess it would need to be under 4100lbs and about 600hp

[TLSTWIN]

I am not in complete denial, but if that is a Supercharged motor....where is the boost gauge?

[boxmonkeyracing]

Originally Posted by syr74

GM still sells cars with the Northstar as a powerplant, so it isn't getting a pass yet. As for the warranty question, Hyundai and Kia very arguably offer the best warranty in the business, are you saying they therefore must build the most reliable cars? If not, why wont GM or anybody else match them?

Of course the answer is that how reliable a car is and how much warranty it has on it are mutually exclusive.



Nope, you're leaving out waaay to many variables. For example, speaking specifically to a concern for reliability......Assuming decent installation and design in both cases I would much rather be running an intercooled Eaton running 16psi of boost than a typical turbocharger running 12psi of boost without an intercooler, and I virtually guarantee you my engine would too for reasons that should be obvious. The heat in a turbo setup like that is going to do seriously bad things long term and it's going to cost me power even if turned the blower back down to an identical 12psi.

That is a generic comparison to be sure, but it makes what should be a very obvious point very clear, boost is not just boost and more boost does not necessarily equate to less reliability.....there are too many variables to make such a generic statement. The heat in a turbo setup like that is going to do seriously bad things long term and it's going to cost me power even if turned the blower back down to an identical 12psi.

That is a relatively extreme example of the situation, but it makes my point. In that comparison the advantages for the higher boost motor are found in increased thermal efficiency and what that means to both power and reliability. One of the major advantages of the TVS design over the older traditional rootes setup it replaced? A 75% improvement in thermal efficiency.



According to Eaton there is a 75% improvement in thermal efficiency.

no warranty no confidence in it. . . kia and hyundai are a joke. I've heard people not getting the warranty work done like they should due to some excuse made. but that's with any auto maker. ford still has a joke of a warranty. northstar engines. . .well seeing how the main experience I've had is seeing one swapped into a fiero, or driving by me. I can't tell you if you are right or if that saying is still true.

seeing how you still argue that it doesn't shorten the life. . .and i will admit heat is the biggest cause of failure, but if you didn't know that then guess you don't need to be playing with fire. But no matter how you look at it higher boost causes more stress which will cause metal fatigue sooner. like I said since you think that it doesn't I'm going to leave this discussion. and go back to my first question and add another one on the end of that.


how do you know they will swap out blowers? why would they if their sales aren't slumping?

[BackinBlackSS/RS]

Originally Posted by fazm

so for the z28 to be as quick (given equal traction) id guess it would need to be under 4100lbs and about 600hp

4100? Yeah, it's gonna be less than that. No doubt in my mind.

[boxmonkeyracing]

Originally Posted by TLSTWIN

I am not in complete denial, but if that is a Supercharged motor....where is the boost gauge?

why does there need to be a boost gage? the durmax diesels don't have one. . .at least not from what I've seen (looking for one right now). besides most the gauges on the dash are dummy gauges anyways.

[SuperFly03]

Originally Posted by fazm

fyi, the 2011 model weighs 3751 on a 4 corner scale.

3820 is the non svtpp and equipped with the shaker 1000 and electronics package.

half way down on the left

http://www.caranddriver.com/var/ezfl...61be6477a5.pdf

so for the z28 to be as quick (given equal traction) id guess it would need to be under 4100lbs and about 600hp

Odd. Default GT500 configuration doesn't get the Shaker 1000 treatment, just 500. Also, what else is left out on the SVTPP to reduce the weight supposedly? I'm just a little skeptical when Ford lists the weight at 3820 and now its supposedly 3751. The wheels save some weight 10-15 I think.

Originally Posted by TLSTWIN

I am not in complete denial, but if that is a Supercharged motor....where is the boost gauge?

Probably going to be in the 4 pack gauge cluster. Who monitors all those gauges really?

[TLSTWIN]

Originally Posted by SuperFly03

Probably going to be in the 4 pack gauge cluster. Who monitors all those gauges really?

I do, at least when I pushing the car hard and it's hot out. I definitely will when I am on the track come Sept 13th

[nards444]

Originally Posted by croyal1974

if they keep trying to out-do eachother wont the price tag get much higher and potential market get much smaller? there arent a whole lot of people capable and willing to spend 40grand(most likely more) for a model that will be outdated in a year or two.

Thats why I said before an im sticking to it is I dont think GM can afford to come out with a Z-28 that cost 50 grand, nobody would buy it. And face it the GT500 is fast but nobody buys them because of the price, so its really not something to compete against. I truly beleive this car isnt a going to be a monster, i think its going to be a bulked up SS. I think your going to get something that has 500-525 HP some different badges, wheels, and maybe a few interior changes. I think the car will round out between 37-41k. Think about the selling point if the car cost under 40k say 39k. First off it beats the mustang GT and if car comes rated at 525HP, with a few extra mods youll be right at the GT500. I just dont think beating the GT500 is all to important to that many people.

[Sax1031]

The Northstar motors were a joke.