V6 Occasional Tracking Setup

[GretchenGotGrowl]

Originally Posted by stevey_frac

Would I have to do the full set, or just the fronts? How much effort is it to swap to the brembo's if I'm going to be swapping back and forth twice a year.

The real problem here is fade right? On the first stop, the V6 brakes will haul down a Camaro in almost the same distance as the brembo's. Only a couple of feet difference from 60. It's the 7th, and 8th stops that are a problem. That's where I was hoping the cooling ducts would help a lot. A stead supply of air over the rotors would push a lot of heat out of the entire system.

Cooling ducts and new lines will help with the fade, but they are single pistons on small rotors. The heat will increase exponentially because you 1) don't have enough surface area for dispersion and transfer from the disks, and the single piston will grip less as the disk heats, leading to more friction. There was a guy on here a few years ago that did the ducts, pad, and line replacement and still had heat and fade issues. He finally went to Brembos and was kicking butt on the road course.

[stevey_frac]

Originally Posted by GretchenGotGrowl

Cooling ducts and new lines will help with the fade, but they are single pistons on small rotors. The heat will increase exponentially because you 1) don't have enough surface area for dispersion and transfer from the disks, and the single piston will grip less as the disk heats, leading to more friction. There was a guy on here a few years ago that did the ducts, pad, and line replacement and still had heat and fade issues. He finally went to Brembos and was kicking butt on the road course.

Ok fair enough. Can't blame me for asking, right?

Do the brembo's bolt onto my existing hubs? Or would they have to be swapped back and forth as well?

--Steve

[GretchenGotGrowl]

Originally Posted by stevey_frac

Ok fair enough. Can't blame me for asking, right?

Do the brembo's bolt onto my existing hubs? Or would they have to be swapped back and forth as well?

--Steve

Nope, the only way to find out is to ask!

I haven't made this change, so I'll defer to someone who has for the details.

[intensifi]

Same hubs. I base this on the installation instructions for the ZL1 brake upgrade kits for the V6 (22989385 & 22960684). New hubs are not in the BOM and there are no instructions included for swapping the hubs.

Get the Brembos. I am just waiting for a few final parts before I upgrade my 2LT to the Brembos. I know a guy who has a set for sale. PM me.

I have been told you must swap the fronts and rears as the brake system (ABS, etc.) is designed for a "balanced" set. I am also told you must have the same type of brakes lines on the front and rear (i.e. do not put stainless on the front and leave rubber on the back). While you are doing this, upgrade to DOT4 fluid for track use or steep hill driving.

I think you can get away with (certain, probably not stock) 19" wheels (for winter??) as long as you do not buy the stock brake pads with the "Roller Skates". I've been thinking about this as my standard set to obtain a taller sidewall anyway.

On the page describing the 1LE suspension upgrade in the GMPP catalog they make note that the 1LE suspension kit is designed for a square wheel setup. They do not come right out and say you must have a square setup though.

Hopefully Justice Pete will continue his comments in this thread and enlighten us. Note: Pete does have posts on Camaro5 where he describes much of these items in great detail (mostly from the SS perspective). I'm planning on his daily driver or pace car package.

[lscamaro]

Originally Posted by intensifi

Same hubs. I base this on the installation instructions for the ZL1 brake upgrade kits for the V6. New hubs are not in the BOM and there are not instructions included for swapping the hubs.

Get the Brembos. I am just waiting for a few final parts before I upgrade my 2LT to the Brembos.

Also I think you can get away with 19" wheels (for winter) as long as you do not buy the brake pads with the "Roller Skates".

If you're referring to the stock 19" wheels, I believe only the front fit with brembos and the rears won't.

[intensifi]

Originally Posted by lscamaro

If you're referring to the stock 19" wheels, I believe only the front fit with brembos and the rears won't.

Not referring to Stock 19" wheels. I was referring to TSW Nurburgrings.

[lscamaro]

Oh well in that case, 18s will fit without roller skates as well

[intensifi]

Originally Posted by lscamaro

Oh well in that case, 18s will fit without roller skates as well

Wow! I need to see a picture of that setup.

[JDP Sales]

I agree with the others that the Factory SS calipers are a minimum requirement for road racing. You can even fit 18" wheels over them as long as the wheel face and offsets are right.

Upgrading your brakes would also open the door to using the FE4 style suspension as you will have clearance issues with your current rear brakes and FE4 rear bars. Pedders FE4 rear bar is the only one that will work with the V6 brakes currently AFAIK..

I'd say concentrate on the brakes for now and once that is complete then look into Subframe bushings, Upper control arm bushings, Trailing and toe rod bushings (or new arms all together) and a good set of FE4 sways. Pedders and Pfadt would be my top choices for these parts.

We use and install all of the parts we sell, so we know what works and can set you up with a package to meet your goals and budget. Feel free to call, PM or email me anytime with questions or for pricing.

Best regards,

Tyler
888-308-6007

[lscamaro]

Originally Posted by intensifi

Wow! I need to see a picture of that setup.

Look up member padre. He uses them for drag racing but they fit. There are others but that's the one that I can remember off the top of my head.

[stevey_frac]

So, my winters, I literally just bought from TireRack. They are 17" rims, and brand new good winter tires. All said, blew about $1300 on it. Really don't want to have to sell them at a loss after just 1 year.

So, I'd pretty much have to be swapping brakes for at least a couple of years.

[intensifi]

Originally Posted by stevey_frac

So, my winters, I literally just bought from TireRack. They are 17" rims, and brand new good winter tires. All said, blew about $1300 on it. Really don't want to have to sell them at a loss after just 1 year.

So, I'd pretty much have to be swapping brakes for at least a couple of years.

Swapping the brakes requires effort as you'd have to bleed them each time. Unless you have a machine, bleeding takes two people. And you need to take the wheels off to safely bleed anyway. Each time your change calipers you need new bolts as well.

If it were me, I'd sell the winter wheels/tires and put that money towards all season tires for the stock rims (says the guy from California with no idea about snow daily driving).

[JusticePete]

We all agree that a brake upgrade is in order with track quality brake fluid.

Brembo LCF 600
Motul RBF 600
Castrol SRF

I suggest you start out using the OEM SS brake pads. When your speed increase Cobalt Friction pads elevate the performance of SS calipers.

Suspension

1. There is a misconception floating around Camaro5 and the Camaro Community in general that the 1LE handling package works well on a 5th Gen with staggered wheels and tires. It does NOT work well with staggered wheels and tires. It was designed to work with a square tire setup.

2. In the media, they talk too much about the 1LE struts and springs. The Camaro TEAM did a wonderful job of tuning the 1LE damping and coils. Struts and coils are NOT why the 1LE handles so well. It is time to give credit where credit is due.

Why Does the 1LE Handle So Well?

#1 The semi-square wheel and tire setup changes the character of the 5th Gen Camaro. We have known that since 2009 when we were the first to go square on a 5th Gen Camaro with 305/30/19s. It is not a coincidence that the Z/28 that just lapped the Ring is on 305/30/19s.

#1A The Camaro TEAM has tweaked the rear sub-frame bushing on the 5th Gen several times. They made a general change in 2012, a ZL1 change in 2012 and a 1LE change in 2013. They have filled voids and used denser rubber. There is little sales sizzle to sell an improved rubber bushing tht you can't see. That doesn't mean it isn't a mission critical addition to the 1LE suspension. It is. While it is listed as #1A it could just as easily have been #1. With the semi-square wheels and tires along with the upgraded sway bars the 1LE sub-frame bushing OE upgrade was a necessary.

#2 The 1LE sway bars are 27mm front and 32mm rear. They are solid for maximum strength. If you drive a square tired 5th Gen with ZL1 bars 25mm front and 28mm rear it is very nuetral. It is too neutral. Take it into a turn at 9/10ths and it will start to rotate. Rotating is a good thing if you are a good driver. It is fast around a track. No OEM will sell a car that neutral. With the broad based use of ABS some driving skills are lost. Start to slide, lift off the gas, nail the brakes and let ABS fix it. In a car that understeers, lifting, slowing, braking and ABS makes things better. Lifting in a neutral car makes things worse as fast as you lift. You'll swap ends before you can get into the ABS. OEM sell cars that are safe for the masses and not dialed in for drivers. That is why the 1LE has a 27mm front bar. It induce a bit of understeer past 8/10ths. Put the 1LE bars on a staggered setup and you have understeer.

Back to the 1LE kit. The bars are the wrong ratio for your staggered wheel and tire setup and the kit does nopt include the 1LE sub-frame bushings. What is left are the 1LE struts and springs that are a welcome addition to most Camaros.

Justice Pete Recommendations

With the 2010 on Camaro you start with foundational bushings. That means we either use inserts for the sub-frame and radius bushes of replace them with full bushes. Until we have a Chevy rock solid sub-frame there will be a bit of rear end steer, rear end step out or what some call a loose rear end. Upgrading the bushing is a foundational requirement in my book on ALL 5th gen models. Unlike the sub-frame bushings which are different on some models, the radius bushings are the same. We wither replace the soft rubber OEM snubber or replace the entire radius bushing with our steel jacketed urethane bushing. This reduce dynamic caster change and you feel that with more on center steering.

With a solid foundation in place we move to sway bars. In general, sway bars are the final tuning elements after bushings, struts and springs. The introduction of the out board mounted rear bar with the ZL1 changed that for all 5th Gen owners. Install ZL1 25mm front and 28mm rear bars on anything but a ZL1 and you won't believe the difference. It is night and day. On the 1LE you either go smaller up front with the OEM 25mm bar or go big and bad with Pedders 32mm rear bar. On the ZL1, chuck those 25mm / 28mm bars for the bad boy bars. Pedders 27mm front and 32mm rear. You would have to be dead not to be thrilled with the difference.

The 1LE struts are the Best Buy out of the GM 5th Gen Camaro parts bin. Incredible value. Excellent performance. I like the 1LE front springs. The 1LE rear springs put too much rake in the car. A number of 1LE owners are running Pedders 220033 or 220035 rear coils with the front 1LE coils on track with excellent results. With you 6, you are better balanced than the 8s. Use the 220035s with the front 1LE coils and enjoy every minute of driving with fantastic ride quality and improved balance.

Add SS brakes to this and you will have a very capable Camaro.

[stevey_frac]

Originally Posted by intensifi

Swapping the brakes requires effort as you'd have to bleed them each time. Unless you have a machine, bleeding takes two people. And you need to take the wheels off to safely bleed anyway.

If it were me, I'd sell the winter wheels/tires and put that money towards all season tires for the stock rims (says the guy from California with no idea about snow daily driving).

Ya, All seasons aren't going to cut it. The weather here can get pretty dicey, fast. At least a few times a winter, I drive to work in 4-5" of snow, and my road doesn't get plowed often, or well. Plus my inlaws live in the country, and their driveway drifts over.

Going up to the SS brakes is going to require either swapping, or ditching these brand new winters, neither of which is particularly palatable.