HPDE/road course guys...question for ya?

[BullF-16]

Any issues with starving the motor of oil or heating the oil.

I'm about to drop a brand new HKE LSX427 motor in (see sig line for mods) and dont want to trash my second motor! I plan to run at Eagles Canyon Raceway here in Tx a few times a year to maybe monthly at track days.

Car is primarily just a street car then i figured since dumping all this money in I might as well have some fun with it.

I will be adding a large oil cooler to the LSX and running oil temp and press gauges. I may even add a 3 qt accusump if its needed.

So, anyone here have any experience with oil issues? Or issues in general?

Thanks

[speedmon]

The heating of the oil will be lessened with your cooler.
The number #1 killer of the Z06 engines, LS2s and LS3s at the track(curvy) is oil starvation. ....thats why the c6Z06 and the GS6spd get drysump.

Thats some serious equipment you're putting under the hood...adding drysump would be a good idea with a $20K 800hp powerplant. Thats not to say you will be able to put that power down in the turns.......you'll be lucky to have traction at 20% throttle.

[BullF-16]

No road racers out there????????

[michael's maro]

I have a big motor...LOL 500 cu in RHS with a maggie, my performance shop has run lots of data on my motor at the track, no issue with oil.. I even ran Daytona last year with the camaro, but we are talking about putting a dry sump system in the car for this years run at Daytona

[Li0nel1234]

What are you doing with the LS3?

[tadams72]

Bull,

Dry sump is going to be a significant change to your engine build to support. I believe you just waited a LONG time for your existing crank so that means either doing that again to get a long snout cranks or using a different pump setup which may or may not work with your plan. A couple of companies I have been researching:

http://www.drysump.com/index1.htm

www.aviaid.com


http://www.daileyengineering.com/dailey_engineering_home.htm

For those that refer to the LS7 setup, it's not as good as it could be either. Watched two of them dump their guts all over the track at Spring Mountain Motorsports Ranch earlier this year. The LS7 setup is more a of a mix of dry and wet systems. Word is you need three scavenge pumps to be effective as each only pumps about 30% efficiency (as they are pumping air and oil). So if you are going to go that route, I would go all the way.

I like your idea of using an Accusump. Wondering if between that and an external oil cooler you would have enough volume in the system to account for the times when the pickup may suck some air. What it may not help with though is aeration of the oil as a result.

I'm still running a stock short block with only upper end motor work, tune and a Pfadt Stage 3 suspension. I am pulling pretty good G's through the corners (keeping up with and passing many formerly more capable cars like Corvettes, Porsches, etc at many of the tracks I ran) and some good high RPM's. Haven't seen any oil starvation manifest yet but going to due some data logging next time I am on the track to no kidding see what the car is doing. Either way, improvements to the system are on the list as I would rather have a little insurance than go into engine replacement sooner than necessary.

One last thing, you might give Pfadt Racing a call as they had a dry sump setup on the Ring Spec Camaro they just sold. Could probably get some pointers from them.

Will follow your thread to see how things progress from here.

Travis

[BullF-16]

Originally Posted by Li0nel1234

What are you doing with the LS3?

Im gonna send it out and have it sleeved then stuff it with all forged internals. May set this one up as a high compression NA motor, still trying to decide. But i will keep it and have it as a spare.

[BullF-16]

Originally Posted by tadams72

Bull,

Dry sump is going to be a significant change to your engine build to support. I believe you just waited a LONG time for your existing crank so that means either doing that again to get a long snout cranks or using a different pump setup which may or may not work with your plan. A couple of companies I have been researching:

http://www.drysump.com/index1.htm

www.aviaid.com


http://www.daileyengineering.com/dailey_engineering_home.htm

For those that refer to the LS7 setup, it's not as good as it could be either. Watched two of them dump their guts all over the track at Spring Mountain Motorsports Ranch earlier this year. The LS7 setup is more a of a mix of dry and wet systems. Word is you need three scavenge pumps to be effective as each only pumps about 30% efficiency (as they are pumping air and oil). So if you are going to go that route, I would go all the way.

I like your idea of using an Accusump. Wondering if between that and an external oil cooler you would have enough volume in the system to account for the times when the pickup may suck some air. What it may not help with though is aeration of the oil as a result.

I'm still running a stock short block with only upper end motor work, tune and a Pfadt Stage 3 suspension. I am pulling pretty good G's through the corners (keeping up with and passing many formerly more capable cars like Corvettes, Porsches, etc at many of the tracks I ran) and some good high RPM's. Haven't seen any oil starvation manifest yet but going to due some data logging next time I am on the track to no kidding see what the car is doing. Either way, improvements to the system are on the list as I would rather have a little insurance than go into engine replacement sooner than necessary.

One last thing, you might give Pfadt Racing a call as they had a dry sump setup on the Ring Spec Camaro they just sold. Could probably get some pointers from them.

Will follow your thread to see how things progress from here.

Travis

In my recent research i have not really heard of the motor in the 5th gen having the same issues as the Vettes. Maybe its the extra capacity of our oil pan.

JusticePete said the only thing they did on the PeddersUSA Camaro is run a large oil cooler, nothing other than that. They had no starvation issues and they ran that car hard.

My plan is to add oil pressure and temp gauges and see how it goes with just a larger oil cooler that adds an additional 2 qts. I will also be running Amsoil 15w-50 which should help with temps somewhat.

Going with a dry sump is out of the question, seems way too complicated. I will talk to Erik at HKE and see what he says. He has build a few motors for the drift guys

I also think the oiling in the LSX block is a bit better than the LS3. The lifter trays in the LS3 heads is also a culprit. It traps oil up in the top of the motor under high g turns. My MAST LS7 heads will not be using lifter trays.

[speedmon]

I think the critical decision revolves around the type of monthly "trackday" driving you are going to do.

If you are going to the twisty track to tootle around in the yellow group and show folks your equipment in the pits you'll probably be fine without a sump.

But if you're gonna put some sticky tires on that beast and pull > 1G 8-10 times a lap and "drive the lugnuts off" then consider the following.....

You haven't seen camaros with this problem because among "amatuer" club racers, the camaro isn't really a popular platform....too heavy and lacks the specialized equipment.....I drive a Z06 and I'm the only one in the past few years who has shown up with a camaro to test. So your not seeing the issue in your research because the data simply isn't there.....it doesn't mean the risk isn't there.

And consider the history of the Z06.....
The C5Z06 is an amazing "out of the box" club racing platform. All you really need are pads and fluid and you can beat the holy hell out out that car for years. However.....
When GM, who encourages folks to track those cars, released the C6Z06 it came with dry-sump oil, trans and diff coolers. WHY? Because those were the "cost" issues from the first 5 years that they need to remedy to maintain profitability and reliability. Folks were blowing motors from oil starvation and frying trannys and diffs from overheating........

Equipment is always a personal choice and should be taylored to the task.

PS...I love my camaro....I just wish it was 3100lbs.

[TCorzett]

Good reading in here... way beyond my build, but I'm interested to hear what you decide to do.

-Todd...

[tadams72]

Originally Posted by BullF-16

In my recent research i have not really heard of the motor in the 5th gen having the same issues as the Vettes. Maybe its the extra capacity of our oil pan.

JusticePete said the only thing they did on the PeddersUSA Camaro is run a large oil cooler, nothing other than that. They had no starvation issues and they ran that car hard.

My plan is to add oil pressure and temp gauges and see how it goes with just a larger oil cooler that adds an additional 2 qts. I will also be running Amsoil 15w-50 which should help with temps somewhat.

Going with a dry sump is out of the question, seems way too complicated. I will talk to Erik at HKE and see what he says. He has build a few motors for the drift guys

I also think the oiling in the LSX block is a bit better than the LS3. The lifter trays in the LS3 heads is also a culprit. It traps oil up in the top of the motor under high g turns. My MAST LS7 heads will not be using lifter trays.

I like your thought process but wonder if volume alone will solve or at least help the problem. What concerns me is if the pickup sucks air it is going to do two things I would think: 1) cause a loss of pressure at the discharge side of the pump which cascades through the entire oil system and 2) subsequently aerate the oil (bubbles are not a good thing).

Taking into acount the above that is what I liked about your previous thought of using an Accusump or similar oil accumulator to null those pressure fluctuations should the pickup become a momentary air pump.

Like SPEEDMON talked about, the reason we have not heard much about failed LS3's in Camaros might be attributed to the number of Camaros that are running that hard. I mean practically every post I see on here talks about auto-x. There seem to be very few of us running the road track and fewer still that are moving beyond the "yellow" group and pushing the car real hard.

He is spot on when he talks about purpose built as well. From my perspective, if I had dropped the money and frustration into a engine that you have I would probably go the extra distance and do the dry sump. Cheap insurance by comparison.

Lifter trays never even crossed my mind. I'll have to research it a little more.

I used to run AMSOIL in my Duramax but went back to Rotella as it was cheaper and its what virtually every heavy equipment diesel on the planet seems to use without issue. Running Mobil 1 in the LS3 currently but might give AMSOIL another try but will wait to hear how it goes with you first. I am hitting about 290 deg on the oil temp for 20 - 30 minute sessions in SOCAL and Nevada but those are during the milder part of the year. That is why I started the other thread about external oil coolers because I know I am going to be pushing the temps to high in the heat of summer.

So let's see where this thread takes us. Some interesting discussions here. Oh, and I wish my Camaro was 3100 lbs too but not willing to sacrifice the street manners/comfort so it will continue to be the rolling pig. Maybe one day I'll convert to the Vette but until then I kind of like being one of the few "muscle cars" on the road course tearing it (and them) up.

Travis

[speedmon]

Well said Tadams......

F16.... don't ya just hate vette guys....we're just so opinionated....but it comes from almost 15 years of driving the LS platform on the track....and we hate when are rides are broken cuz we can't get a fix for our addiction.

The high probability scenario that seems to cause the starvation and the "blow" in the LS engines is high RPMs combined with high Gs. If you steer clear of this scenario and people do, it seems to reduce the risk.

And as an FYI, as soon as that 1LE comes out, I'm going to get one and beat the holy bejesus out of it at the track and see if how hard I can "push the envelope"......can't wait.

And maybe the deeper pan does help.....sounds logical....we'll see.

[tadams72]

Originally Posted by speedmon

Well said Tadams......

F16.... don't ya just hate vette guys....we're just so opinionated....but it comes from almost 15 years of driving the LS platform on the track....and we hate when are rides are broken cuz we can't get a fix for our addiction.

The high probability scenario that seems to cause the starvation and the "blow" in the LS engines is high RPMs combined with high Gs. If you steer clear of this scenario and people do, it seems to reduce the risk.

And as an FYI, as soon as that 1LE comes out, I'm going to get one and beat the holy bejesus out of it at the track and see if how hard I can "push the envelope"......can't wait.

And maybe the deeper pan does help.....sounds logical....we'll see.

Just realized your in Orange, I run HPDE with Corvette guys/gals from San Diego Corvette Owners Club. Ran a couple events (Chuckwalla and Spring Mountain) before I deployed cannot wait to get back at it this fall. Spring Mountain is my favorite by a long shot eventhough it's a hall to get up there from San Diego.

Travis

[Phat Ralph]

Has anyone overfilled their motor oil capicity, say by a 1/2 to 1 quart to protect against any oil starvation issues? I know this also helps with the Corvette LS3 stavitation issues they see. May be some added insurance plus reduce some heat by added volume.

Later
Ralph