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Old 02-15-2010, 12:56 PM   #29
scrming
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VinceTrifecta View Post
Hi all,

This is a very good thread here. I don't get a chance to spend much time on the forums, but it was suggested I come here and post up.

We are a custom tuning company, we specialize in analyzing a customer's vehicle for inefficiencies, then make incremental adjustments to the tune until our analysis concludes the vehicle is optimally tuned.

The first 2010 LLT car we did produced a gain of 23HP and around 17TQ on the dyno, and I'll post the dyno sheet if I can find it. The reason it gained this much power was because the equipment that had been installed by the owner caused the WOT fuel mixture to be incorrect (very lean).

We've since tuned three of these cars - two "beta testers", and one "production car". We're in the process of also tuning a twin-turbo'd 2010 V6 Camaro (which is going very well).

The two beta testers' cars ended up accepting very few tuning changes. Despite the modifications, the vehicles showed a very decent air to fuel ratio, so there wasn't much to do there. The dyno car was way too lean, and the production customer's vehicle was drowning in fuel at WOT due to his modifications, to the point of misfiring which has been resolved.

As for timing, GM basically throws a bunch of timing at these engines, and lets the knock sensors pull it back out to adapt to the fuel quality. Our dyno car showed a solid 9* of knock retard (KR) on the dyno with the stock tune. Obviously we're not going to get any more timing into the engine, but we did experiment with WOT air to fuel ratio to see if we could reduce the KR with more (or less) fuel, and we also tried removing timing from the base timing table.

For cam phasing, we tried modifying these tables also, but we did not see any substantial changes in power, but did verify the cam phase changed via data logging.

So, we've proven the ability to change the cam phasing, timing, air/fuel ratio, DTCs, and torque management settings - all the things necessary to provide custom tuning.

I'll be the first to say this is not going to be a mass-market tune for stock vehicles, though, since GM tuned these so well from the factory. It only makes sense if the vehicle has a modification that skews the tune. It's not that it isn't understood how to tune them, only that GM didn't leave us much room for improvement. One area I'd like to delve into is the knock detection logic, but unlike other tuners that sacrifice engine safety for dyno numbers, I'm not real excited about reducing the knock detection factors - this is an area I trust the factory in.
Thanks for taking to time to explain this much more eloquently than I did or could!

But the bottom line is this is basically what I've been saying yet, Nate (nallen) continues to twist this around to make sound like I was unhappy, complaining and bad mouthing the tune... which is simply untrue!
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Old 02-15-2010, 01:09 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Beauwulf View Post
Well, unlike these other two gentleman, I have not had such a good experience with Vince. True, the tune does help drivability and the tranny does hit harder. But, unlike the other posters here, I have not had the customer service that one would expect as A PAYING CUSTOMER!

Since Vince's return, I've sent numerous E-mails to him with absolutely NO response! I believe I pissed him off by announcing the tune was not ready for release when both Scrming and my self posted little or no results from the tune. As far as I'm concerned, I'm going to find another tuner to work with!
My apologies, many of our customers are waiting for updates from our being closed for three weeks.
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Old 02-15-2010, 01:49 PM   #31
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Looks like many valuable lessons have been learned through this experience by those involved and by some of us who didn't have to pay the price of admission. Hopefully all can walk away better for it.
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Old 02-15-2010, 01:52 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by wer2foxs View Post
If everyone recalls yours truly and another C5 member were offered Trifecta Tunes through Nallen back in January. I am not going into details of what happened however the inconsistency of information given to us did not add up so we decided to back out of this project. It may have all been a misunderstanding however neither one of us was not willing to take that chance. I never intended to mention this on this on C5 but after reading this thread I felt I needed to add another opinion.
Hi Marvin:

You left out a few details. Marvin and Brandon were assigned testing roles with my company. Marvin to test LLT programming, and Brandon to test LLT headers and tuning. First, there was some confusion over the test schedule, which I refused to commit to until Vince returned from vacation. I also refused to commit to a location for the same reason. Scheduling the header install and dyno sessions for 2 cars was difficult, since I had not met or spoken with either of them, and had no idea what their individual schedules looked like. At one point, I thought I had a good date for the header install, but we got behind on an in house project and postponed. Vince had still not returned by this time, so the only point of an early install was to make time for tuning both cars same day. Nevertheless, this upset Brandon, who managed to get the impression that the headers were "promised" to him, and therefore belonged to him. At that point, he wanted to pick the headers up and install them at home. I refused. Then, when he discovered that I had spoken to Marvin about the headers, he became further upset, and stated that we were dealing under the table with HIS headers. The point of involving Marvin was to ensure that we had a backup in case Brandon could not follow through with testing. This all came out on the day that we were scheduled to meet with them to discuss the process in more detail and finalize their schedules. I do believe, however, that the majority of the misunderstanding was with Brandon. After Brandon's email alleging "deceitful" and "deceptive" business practices, I shut the program down and handed it over to our attorney. Brandon then agreed to a misunderstanding, but I've learned recently that he's contacted several of my partners, including Vince, Nick, and members of this forum, using the same damaging language from his previous emails.

Let's get something straight, fellas - this is my business. My livelihood. I will not tolerate half-baked accusations. Period. Bad reviews are fine, that's business. I've made my fair share of mistakes, and will probably make others. If I'm at fault, I will always do my best to make it right. But potentially damaging accusations based purely on your opinion of the situation will be met with unsympathetic litigation. End of conversation.

Mr. Kent Ray (mrray13) is scheduled to arrive in Indy the morning of the 24th to test our ARH/Trifecta package. Install and dyno sessions will be conducted at Cozzolino Motorsports. Vince will be working with us that day, and we hope to have Kent dialed in and driving home by 2-3pm that afternoon. I've started a fresh thread to cover the project, and look forward to sharing the process with the community. This should generate plenty of data to help everyone better understand the tuning process and what Vince is capable of doing with the software.

- Nate

Last edited by nallen00; 02-15-2010 at 03:16 PM.
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Old 02-15-2010, 02:57 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VinceTrifecta View Post
As for timing, GM basically throws a bunch of timing at these engines, and lets the knock sensors pull it back out to adapt to the fuel quality. Our dyno car showed a solid 9* of knock retard (KR) on the dyno with the stock tune.
That's really interesting about the available timing on the stock engine. Sounds like just switching to premium fuel for the V6 may add some extra power?
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Old 02-15-2010, 03:29 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by nallen00 View Post

<SNIP>

Scrming and Beauwulf. I agree to disagree. You stated "no gains" and your opinion that the programming was not ready for release. That implies a number of things, and I think Vince will agree with me on this.

<SNIP>
Ok.... let's try this again. I spent my own money to dyno my car and it showed ZERO GAINS... plain and simple... dyno car with stock tune... dyno car with Vince's tune... same number... NO GAIN... That's a FACT, not an OPINION!

I also said and I quote:

"I think before we all rush to judgment on all of this we need to wait for Vince to get back and review all Beauwulf's data and mine... Definitely want to be as fair as possible!"

No where did I accuse anyone of anything... and as you can see I said we needed to have Vince review things when he returned before anyone started jumping to conclusions!

And I had no intentions of posting anything until Vince did return...

Last edited by scrming; 02-15-2010 at 03:46 PM.
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Old 02-15-2010, 03:32 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by nallen00 View Post

<SNIP>

But potentially damaging accusations based purely on your opinion of the situation will be met with unsympathetic litigation.

<SNIP>
Oh... yeah... let's get lawyers involved...

Ok... i see you edited me out of the litigation post...
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Old 02-15-2010, 03:38 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by 67MellowYellow View Post
That's really interesting about the available timing on the stock engine. Sounds like just switching to premium fuel for the V6 may add some extra power?
I have saying this for MONTHS!! Every one thinks I'm crazy... everyone says that the LLT can't benefit from running premium fuel because it's not tuned for it.... I tend to disagree and what I've found, which is basically what Vince found is the knock sensors are a lot less active when I run higher octane fuel...

Now, i've never tested on the dyno or the track... but I think I will try it this spring at the track and see what happens!
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Old 02-15-2010, 03:53 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scrming View Post
I have saying this for MONTHS!! Every one thinks I'm crazy... everyone says that the LLT can't benefit from running premium fuel because it's not tuned for it.... I tend to disagree and what I've found, which is basically what Vince found is the knock sensors are a lot less active when I run higher octane fuel...

Now, i've never tested on the dyno or the track... but I think I will try it this spring at the track and see what happens!
And your Owners Manual allows you to use it!
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Old 02-15-2010, 03:57 PM   #38
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And your Owners Manual allows you to use it!
Don't even start with that!
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Old 02-15-2010, 04:04 PM   #39
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Don't even start with that!
Have to watch out for the Octane police.
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Old 02-15-2010, 04:07 PM   #40
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Okay, I gotta throw a couple cents in here.

Beauwulf and scrming have been two of the biggest reasons I've done anything to my car. I've followed their builds, and recommendations, throughout the time I've owned my car. I find them both to be honest and upstanding people and want to thank them for all their efforts.

Vince has been quick in replying to my email, and for that I thank him and look forward to trying his product. I'm hoping we see some improvements using his product. I'm looking forward to feeling this car shift as Beauwulf and scrming as described.

Nick @ ARH has been the same as Vince. Like the tune, I look forward to seeing, hearing and feeling Nick's product on the car!

Nate has been prompt and straightforward in all his contact with me. Even clarifying an issue or two that I asked about. I'm looking forward to meeting him and getting this thing done!

I want to thank all the principles involved in this, Nate, Nick and Vince, for the opportunity to test their products and services and hopefully help my achieve my goal of 300^2.

Also, after all is done in Indy, I will arrange another dyno run, allbeit on a my home dyno, and see if the results have stayed. In my previous experience working with the exhaust, I believe they will, as they have in the past. I'll give the products a few weeks before the dyno as I have in the past.

Hopefully, I'll have a CAI to tune as well, lol, soon.
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Old 02-15-2010, 04:08 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scrming
Oh... yeah... let's get lawyers involved...

Ok... i see you edited me out of the litigation post...
The situation with Brandon was the first time I've been forced to involve an attorney, which has nothing to do with you. I removed you from the post because, quite honestly, I'm tired of arguing...

My sole interest is not selling product. This is an engineering consultancy, not a warehouse...

Your statement implied a potential issue with the programming, and was interpreted that way by more than one member. You may not have intended it to, but it was. That's all I'm getting at here. Unfortunately, I made the mistake of not better informing the community of the exact issues at play. I accept that...

I wish both of you the best of luck, and look forward to following your progress with Vince.

- Nate
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Old 02-15-2010, 04:09 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by scrming View Post
I have saying this for MONTHS!! Every one thinks I'm crazy... everyone says that the LLT can't benefit from running premium fuel because it's not tuned for it.... I tend to disagree and what I've found, which is basically what Vince found is the knock sensors are a lot less active when I run higher octane fuel...

Now, i've never tested on the dyno or the track... but I think I will try it this spring at the track and see what happens!

I'd just like to find some premium fuel in my area with no ethanol. I've seen the knock sensors just as active running the higher E10 blend we get compared to the straight gas lower octane stuff.
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